Freeeze during boot? Need Help

[jw]

I am having trouble with a new system I have created.
It freezes during boot at the XP setup window pretty much the first
time I power up each morning. When I re-power up it boots to desktop
just fine. It's almost like it is having trouble cold-starting.

The system has three hard drives, one SATA, two IDE, plus a SATA DVD
burner.
It is a AMD Phenom 9550 Quad-Core 2.6GHz.
ASUS M3A78-CM MOBO.
3.25GB (Supposed to be 4GB) DDR2 RAM.
400W PSU.
XP SP2.

Can someone suggest where I might start looking to determine wherein
the problem lies? Or should I leave the machine on overnight? I have
always been afraid to do that.

Duke

 

[jw]

unplug the ide drives then start up. If all is well, plug them in one at a
time.

Will do.

Thing is, it may take a while to do this. This AM, it did it once
again, but I powered off for two hours, then powered up - it worked
fine. So it appears the problem is sporadic, and may only happen
after being powered off for several hours (ie overnight). And if I
experiment with unplugging and plugging drives, it can take a few days
to achieve any conclusions.

OTOH, I thought of doing this myself, and so I agree with you. Right
now I am thinking that it may take a week of experimenting with hard
drive eliminations, including the SATA drive.

BTW, I should have mentioned that all three drives are bootable, and
I use the usual boot.ini mods to control this. Therefore, I should be
able to boot up from just any one or two hard drives connected as a
test.

Should be fun - CYA next week?

Duke

 

[Maurice Batey]

It freezes during boot at the XP setup window pretty much the first
time I power up each morning. When I re-power up it boots to desktop
just fine. It's almost like it is having trouble cold-starting.

Had exactly the same problem 2 years ago. Checked drives and memory. Unplugged
and re-plugged most connections to PSU. Problem persisted.

So since then when switching on cold, I leave it at the BIOS password prompt
for 5 minutes, then boot.

No recurrence of problem since then...

 

[jw]

(e-mail address removed) wrote:

i would suggest changing your power supply for 600W. hard drives take power
when you power up and go into bios what is the temp reading
what happens if you run just one hard drive.

Well - now I have it running with only the SATA hard drive. When I
powered up this AM, it stopped immediately with no raster whatsoever.
Then when I immediately powered up a second time, it completed the
boot okay. Almost like the 450W PSU can't handle the initial power
requirements?

Duke

 

[jw]

While a marginal quality 400W PSU could cause this problem,
it most definitely does not need more than a 400W, decent
quality/properly functioning PSU. That it uses onboard
video alone offsets having a couple extra hard drives and
then some.

Well then, I guess I won't dash onto the web to buy a higher-wattage
PSU.

Duke

 

[Andy]

so what your saying! what i was taught is incorrect?

Yes, I daresay he is. No way in hell that machine "needs" a 600W PSU.

Cheers,
Andy.

 

[Andy]

Well then, Andy - are you saying your opinion is that my problem is
not the PSU? If so, then do you think it is the motherboard?
It is supposed to be brand new. I bought it through PortaTech.com.
It wasn't cheap either.

Duke

Can never be 100% sure at this distance from the machine in question.
It's feasable that a fault in the PSU could be causing the problem -
nothing to do with the 400W rating though.

 

[jw]

darklight wrote:

Yes, I daresay he is. No way in hell that machine "needs" a 600W PSU.

Cheers,
Andy.

Well then, Andy - are you saying your opinion is that my problem is
not the PSU? If so, then do you think it is the motherboard?
It is supposed to be brand new. I bought it through PortaTech.com.
It wasn't cheap either.

Duke

 

[jw]

Can never be 100% sure at this distance from the machine in question.
It's feasable that a fault in the PSU could be causing the problem -
nothing to do with the 400W rating though.

Well said Andy.

The PSU is brand new, and is an identical replacement for a
predecessor that burnt out after a month's usage. Doesn't say much
for the vendor's product, does it? Maybe he is selling defective
stuff?

Duke

 

[RobV]

Well - now I have it running with only the SATA hard drive. When I
powered up this AM, it stopped immediately with no raster whatsoever.
Then when I immediately powered up a second time, it completed the
boot okay. Almost like the 450W PSU can't handle the initial power
requirements?

Duke

I've been following the thread here with interest, since I just went
through the same problem with my system. When the computer was first
turned on in the morning, it was cold in the room (heat down at night
for sleeping). Powering on, the system would not get very far in the
boot process before it would freeze with a BSOD, always different.

I happen to have extra components and tried them all, including memory,
video card, power supply, disk drive, cables, reseated all connections.
I was certain it was the PSU, but a known good one was used and the
problem occurred just the same. The culprit was the motherboard.
Probably some cold solder joint that broke connection when the
components were cool, as the system would run forever after it warmed up
a bit and completed a boot, but it got increasingly more difficult to
reach a working state.

I replaced the MB, a Asus P5B-Plus, with a Asus P5Q-PRO (I wanted to do
this anyway...how convenient <EG>).

I did a repair install of Windows XP Home and the system has been rock
stable since. The CPU is a E6600 OCed to 3.2 GHz at stock voltage.

I would have bet good money it was the PSU, but it was indeed the MB.
In your case, I would try a different, higher wattage PSU (just to rule
out both the PSU and the "not enough wattage" possibility, if it's not a
well made, name brand supply. It can't hurt). If nothing changes with
another PSU, it could be any other component that hasn't been replaced
yet and that includes the MB.

 

[jw]

I've been following the thread here with interest, since I just went
through the same problem with my system. When the computer was first
turned on in the morning, it was cold in the room (heat down at night
for sleeping). Powering on, the system would not get very far in the
boot process before it would freeze with a BSOD, always different.

I happen to have extra components and tried them all, including memory,
video card, power supply, disk drive, cables, reseated all connections.
I was certain it was the PSU, but a known good one was used and the
problem occurred just the same. The culprit was the motherboard.
Probably some cold solder joint that broke connection when the
components were cool, as the system would run forever after it warmed up
a bit and completed a boot, but it got increasingly more difficult to
reach a working state.

I replaced the MB, a Asus P5B-Plus, with a Asus P5Q-PRO (I wanted to do
this anyway...how convenient <EG>).

I did a repair install of Windows XP Home and the system has been rock
stable since. The CPU is a E6600 OCed to 3.2 GHz at stock voltage.

I would have bet good money it was the PSU, but it was indeed the MB.
In your case, I would try a different, higher wattage PSU (just to rule
out both the PSU and the "not enough wattage" possibility, if it's not a
well made, name brand supply. It can't hurt). If nothing changes with
another PSU, it could be any other component that hasn't been replaced
yet and that includes the MB.

Your comments do not surprise me at all. I now fully expect that
changing PSU's will do no good, since the problem has already
persisted despite my replacement with (1) an identical new one from
the vendor because the first one burnt out and (2) a similar-wattage
one I had in my closet. I hate the thought and the cost of having to
return the tower and its mobo/cpu to the vendor though. That's even
assuming the vendor will replace it. And of course I will lose
computer use during the interim.

I don't know what to do. I fear what is now an aggravation will
develop into something more serious and untenable.

Duke

 

[Maurice Batey]

I don't know what to do.

What happens if you leave the PC sitting at e.g. the BIOS password
prompt for 5 minutes when switching on from cold, before booting your
operating system?

--
/\/\aurice
(Retired in Surrey, UK) Registered Linux User #487649
Linux Mandriva 2.6.27.19-desktop-1mnb (i686) 2009.0 32-bit
KDE 3.5.10 Virtualbox 2.1.4
(Replace "nomail.afraid" by "bcs" to reply by email)

 

[jw]

What happens if you leave the PC sitting at e.g. the BIOS password
prompt for 5 minutes when switching on from cold, before booting your
operating system?

Now when I cold start the thing in the AM, it doesn't get to the BIOS
at all. It sits there with CPU fan spinning and screen blank. If I
power off and then on again, it completes the boot fine.

Duke

 

[westom]

Now when I cold start the thing in the AM, it doesn't get to the BIOS
at all.  It sits there with CPU fan spinning and screen blank.  If I
power off and then on again, it completes the boot fine.  

After all that work, at this point you must have a list of what you
know is good. I suspect you do not because so many recommended by
swapping parts rather than getting numbers that say something
definitively - without doubt.

Until you have established power supply 'system' integrity, then
everything will appear defective. Worse, a defective power supply
system can still boot a computer. The only way to identify a
defective power supply system is with a multimeter while that system
is under heavy load. The meter is even sold where hammers are sold
for about the same price which means you can have that meter and
useful information quickly.

In your case, the most important numbers are from any one of purple,
red, orange and yellow wires by probing where wires enter a nylon
connector on the motherboard. Getting the computer to do as much as
possible (without crashing) is when those numbers report anything
useful. DC voltage numbers must exceed 3.23, 4.87, or 11.7. Posting
those numbers here means others with better knowledge can provide
additional facts.

Currently you are spinning wheels - do not even have a list of what
you know is good. First step to any accomplishment is to establish
power supply 'system' integrity. If others did not mention it, the
system is more than just a power supply.

Computer could have always had a defective supply 'system'. It
booted. But the defect would have only been identified months ago
with the meter. Even a perfectly good power swapped into a computer
can appear act defective. Or a defective supply can still boot the
computer. Without the meter, nobody would know. Without numbers,
nobody out here with better knowledge can provide useful assistance.

Is the power supply undersized? Even that question is answered when
posting those numbers here. At this point (after all that work), you
should know that the power supply ‘system’ is good – and have long
moved on to other suspects. Due to shotgunning, you have not even
accomplished that. Get the multimeter even in Wal-mart for less than
$18. Then have useful and definitive answers in the next post.

 

[jw]

ram power consumption
http://www.experts-exchange.com/Hardware/Misc/Q_21289064.html

hard drive power consumption
http://www.tomshardware.co.uk/500gb-hdd-disk,review-31519-11.html

your cpu takes 125W

now do the maths

Looks like 400W is sufficient.

Duke

 

[Paul]

Looks like 400W is sufficient.

Duke

The system has three hard drives, one SATA, two IDE, plus a SATA DVD
burner.
It is a AMD Phenom 9550 Quad-Core 2.6GHz.
ASUS M3A78-CM MOBO.
3.25GB (Supposed to be 4GB) DDR2 RAM.
400W PSU.
XP SP2.

Three hard drives @ 12W each. 36W
DVD burner 12V @ 1.5A, 5V @ 1.5A, (12V drawn when media inserted.) 25W max
Phenom 9550 95W/0.90 = 105.6W at ATX12V 2x2. ( http://products.amd.com/en-us/DesktopCPUDetail.aspx?id=400 )
Motherboard plus RAM - allocate 50W
10W for 5VSB and USB loads.
6W for fans
-----------
36+25+105.6+50+10+6=232.6W (and my estimates are still higher than the real system).

So 400W should cover it.

(For RAM, you can get power numbers from Kingston. This 2x2GB DDR2-800 kit, draws 2W per module.)
http://www.valueram.com/datasheets/KHX6400D2K2_4G.pdf

I allocate 50W for motherboard and RAM, to cover a 20W+ Northbridge, a
5-10W Southbridge, and the small amount of power that DDR2 or DDR3
DIMMs now draw.

When a system is sitting idle, it draws much less power than that
estimate. That estimate is for a gaming situation. And with built-in
graphics, you're unlikely to max the power consumption. Maybe Prime95
would be the best loading situation you could achieve on that system.

Power supply analysis, should be done on a per-rail basis. All
the numbers on the power supply label, have a meaning, and should
be checked. But at a first order approximation, the 400W should
be enough.

When the computer starts, the BIOS will be single threaded, and
only one of the four cores will be doing anything. The hard drives
draw more current for the first ten seconds (spinup), but the processor
draws very little power, and the effects cancel out. I do a
detailed calculation of startup power, if there are four or more
hard drives present. If you get enough hard drives in a system,
and they each draw 2.5A during the ten second spinup, eventually
that becomes significant.

Paul

 

[Paul]

Thank you Paul.

I forgot to include that I am using an ATI Radeon HD3650 512MB PCI
Express X16 video card. That would add to the 232.6W for sure.
The company (Portatech) that sold me this thing is telling me that the
PSU is marginal for what I have, and that I should go for a stronger
PSU. Of course they will be glad to sell me the same.

Your figures tell me that will do no good. Portatech also told me to
restore the defaults to the BIOS to see what happens in the morning
when I next cold start.

I fear the problem is with either the AMD Phenom 9550 or the ASUS
M3A78-CM MOBO. I thought I went for a good combo - but let's face it,
one of two 2GB RAMS was DOA, and the first PSU burned up after two
weeks of use. Doesn't leave me very optimistic about the rest of the
hardwares.

Duke

If the motherboard has integrated video, you can use that instead of the 3650.
But the HD 3650 doesn't draw that much power.

An HD3650 here, is 12W at idle, and 41.7W max during 3D gaming.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/msi-hd3650_4.html#sect0

There is no Auxiliary power connector on the card, and video card designers
seem to limit the amps from the slot, to a little over 4 amps. So 12V @ 4.3A
would be about as much power as they might choose to use (52W from the 12V rail).
They don't generally attempt to go all the way to the max of 75W combined
which can be drawn from 12V and 3.3V. At least, I haven't seen a measured
value go over about 4.3A on the 12V rail (looking at a lot of cards from
Xbitlabs measurements). If they needed more power, then for safety, they'd
include a 2x3 power connector on the card. The 41.7W number seems to be
consistent, from that point of view.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/images/video/msi-hd3650/msi_rhd3650_pcb_front_bg.jpg

What is printed on the label of the PSU ? Is there a picture on
the web ? That would save copying the numbers.

HTH,
Paul

 

[westom]

Looks like 400W is sufficient.

Finish the math. Some power supplies rated by responsible computer
manufacturers at 350 watts are marketed by others to computer
assemblers as 500 watts. Nobody lied. But supplies marketed to
computer assemblers may play specmanship games.

Watts are irrelevant - but simple enough to market to computer
assemblers. Critical are amps for each voltage. A supply of
sufficient watts may also not provide sufficient current on one
voltage. Furthermore, no manufacturer really provides useful numbers
(for watts or current). You have seen ballpark numbers. Only way to
really know is to confirm those specs with a multimeter while supply
loaded - connected to computer.

How to determine if each voltage outputs sufficient current:
solution posted above. Appreciate your problem. An undersized power
supply (insufficient current on one voltage) will still boot a
computer. That may be your original supply. Only a multimeter will
identify an undersized voltage. An undersized power supply that
booted a computer everytime six months ago then may create strange
freezes today. Only the meter would have identified that defect six
months ago.

Whereas ballpark numbers will define what is sufficient, still,
supply specmanship games can leave one voltage undersized. After a
computer boots, best is to obtain voltages as listed above. Of
course, long before replacing a supply, better is to learn if the
original supply was defective - undersized or just failing. Same two
minute method answers both questions. It is that simple. Watt
numbers actually reports little that is accurate due to games of
specmanship. Those watts calculations only suggest what should be
(may be) sufficient.

 

[jw]

Three hard drives @ 12W each. 36W
DVD burner 12V @ 1.5A, 5V @ 1.5A, (12V drawn when media inserted.) 25W max
Phenom 9550 95W/0.90 = 105.6W at ATX12V 2x2. ( http://products.amd.com/en-us/DesktopCPUDetail.aspx?id=400 )
Motherboard plus RAM - allocate 50W
10W for 5VSB and USB loads.
6W for fans
-----------
36+25+105.6+50+10+6=232.6W (and my estimates are still higher than the real system).

So 400W should cover it.

(For RAM, you can get power numbers from Kingston. This 2x2GB DDR2-800 kit, draws 2W per module.)
http://www.valueram.com/datasheets/KHX6400D2K2_4G.pdf

I allocate 50W for motherboard and RAM, to cover a 20W+ Northbridge, a
5-10W Southbridge, and the small amount of power that DDR2 or DDR3
DIMMs now draw.

When a system is sitting idle, it draws much less power than that
estimate. That estimate is for a gaming situation. And with built-in
graphics, you're unlikely to max the power consumption. Maybe Prime95
would be the best loading situation you could achieve on that system.

Power supply analysis, should be done on a per-rail basis. All
the numbers on the power supply label, have a meaning, and should
be checked. But at a first order approximation, the 400W should
be enough.

When the computer starts, the BIOS will be single threaded, and
only one of the four cores will be doing anything. The hard drives
draw more current for the first ten seconds (spinup), but the processor
draws very little power, and the effects cancel out. I do a
detailed calculation of startup power, if there are four or more
hard drives present. If you get enough hard drives in a system,
and they each draw 2.5A during the ten second spinup, eventually
that becomes significant.

Paul

Thank you Paul.

I forgot to include that I am using an ATI Radeon HD3650 512MB PCI
Express X16 video card. That would add to the 232.6W for sure.
The company (Portatech) that sold me this thing is telling me that the
PSU is marginal for what I have, and that I should go for a stronger
PSU. Of course they will be glad to sell me the same.

Your figures tell me that will do no good. Portatech also told me to
restore the defaults to the BIOS to see what happens in the morning
when I next cold start.

I fear the problem is with either the AMD Phenom 9550 or the ASUS
M3A78-CM MOBO. I thought I went for a good combo - but let's face it,
one of two 2GB RAMS was DOA, and the first PSU burned up after two
weeks of use. Doesn't leave me very optimistic about the rest of the
hardwares.

Duke

 

[CBFalconer]

Finish the math. Some power supplies rated by responsible
computer manufacturers at 350 watts are marketed by others to
computer assemblers as 500 watts. Nobody lied. But supplies
marketed to computer assemblers may play specmanship games.

Nonsense, as far as I am concerned. A supply rated at N watts
should be able to supply those N watts continuously without
significantly affecting its life. Operated in a typical
environment.