flash replacing hard disks?

Y

Yousuf Khan

Flash splash, from iPod Nano - Technology - International Herald Tribune
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/09/30/business/ptflash01.php

It looks like certain older capacity landmarks for hard disks are
becoming the domain of flash. For example, 4GB flash would be cheaper
than 4GB HD, except for the fact that nobody makes a 4GB HD anymore.
Anyways, it looks like flash is taking over older capacity landmarks
faster than HD is leaving them behind.

Yousuf Khan
 
F

Felger Carbon

Yousuf Khan said:
Flash splash, from iPod Nano - Technology - International Herald Tribune
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/09/30/business/ptflash01.php

It looks like certain older capacity landmarks for hard disks are
becoming the domain of flash. For example, 4GB flash would be cheaper
than 4GB HD, except for the fact that nobody makes a 4GB HD anymore.
Anyways, it looks like flash is taking over older capacity landmarks
faster than HD is leaving them behind.

That's interesting, because for a long time HDD price/MB was halving
every year, which means capacity/year was almost doubling (part of the
price drop was production efficiencies). Is flash price/MB dropping
_faster_ than by a factor of 2 every year, or has the long-term HDD
trend slowed so that flash can catch up? Both? ;-)
 
G

GSV Three Minds in a Can

from the wonderful person said:
Flash splash, from iPod Nano - Technology - International Herald Tribune
http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/09/30/business/ptflash01.php

It looks like certain older capacity landmarks for hard disks are
becoming the domain of flash. For example, 4GB flash would be cheaper
than 4GB HD, except for the fact that nobody makes a 4GB HD anymore.
Anyways, it looks like flash is taking over older capacity landmarks
faster than HD is leaving them behind.

But last time I looked the write speeds of Flash were pretty pathetic ..
or has it gotten way better all of a sudden? (none of them could come
close to keeping up with 'real' USB2, for instance).
 
F

Felger Carbon

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:
But last time I looked the write speeds of Flash were pretty pathetic ..
or has it gotten way better all of a sudden? (none of them could come
close to keeping up with 'real' USB2, for instance).

Write speeds are important for large files. But reading is a lot more
common than writing, and I assume that latency is a whole lot less for
flash than for 7,200RPM HDDS. ;-)

Also, if a flash drive contains, say, 16 chips then a good controller
chip should be able to achieve a 16X write (or read) speed increase
over a single flash chip, right? The teensy USB drives you're
familiar with normally have only one flash memory chip.
 
T

Tony Hill

That's interesting, because for a long time HDD price/MB was halving
every year, which means capacity/year was almost doubling (part of the
price drop was production efficiencies). Is flash price/MB dropping
_faster_ than by a factor of 2 every year, or has the long-term HDD
trend slowed so that flash can catch up? Both? ;-)

I think the more important issue is that many consumers are buying
more and more towards the trailing edge of hard drives. Personally I
always used to buy at about the half-size point, ie when 80GB drives
were the biggest drives around, I would buy a 40GB drive. When 160GB
drives were the biggest I would pick up an 80GB drive. Now I'm
looking at more like the 1/3rd size point, ie my next drive will
probably only be a 120GB or maybe 160GB drive while manufacturers are
now turning out 400GB drives.

In business machines I see this trend even more strongly. By far the
most common hard drive size in new business computers is 40GB, the
smallest size offered. If they could get a 20GB drive for $10 less I
suspect that a lot of businesses would go that route. I'm sure that
most hard drive manufacturers would probably LOVE to discontinue their
40GB drive production since that's only half a platter (or less) for
them, ie the "40GB" drives they are really 80GB+ drives with most of
the capacity disabled. Certainly we've seen this before with drives
to support old products (ie the hard drives sold in Microsoft's XBox
have to be the same 10GB size now as they were some MS first signed
the contract with drive manufacturers), but to see it in new,
mainstream products is something fairly new.

In short, the thing that really changed is the rate at which us
consumers require more hard drive space. Both flash and hard drives
are increasing in size faster than our requirements are. The trick
here is that both flash and hard drives have a bottom end price point.
Bellow a certain size there is just no real price advantage. For hard
drive manufacturers the cost savings bellow 1 platter (ie 80 to 133GB
right now) is rather negligible. For flash the minimum price point is
the cost for a single chip at the lowest cost/MB, which right now is
probably around 256 or 512MB, and this cost is much lower than the
minimum cost for hard drives.

As the articles notes, the crossover point between where flash becomes
cheaper than hard drives is increasing every year, and it's doing so
faster than the annual increase in drive size that consumers want.
Eventually that means that flash will become cheaper than hard disks
for the drive size that many people are buying. That being said
though, I see the timeframe for this cross-over as being roughly 10
years down the road. They at least have to get to the point where a
40GB flash drive is cheaper than a 40GB hard drive, and that will take
time.
 
D

daytripper

[snipped]
As the articles notes, the crossover point between where flash becomes
cheaper than hard drives is increasing every year, and it's doing so
faster than the annual increase in drive size that consumers want.
Eventually that means that flash will become cheaper than hard disks
for the drive size that many people are buying. That being said
though, I see the timeframe for this cross-over as being roughly 10
years down the road. They at least have to get to the point where a
40GB flash drive is cheaper than a 40GB hard drive, and that will take
time.

Lessee....in college in the late 60's, we were told the drive cost/capacity
crossover point from magnetics to solid state was projected to be "5 years
away". And for as long as I can remember since that time, it's always been "5
years away".

Until tonite...

/daytripper (progress? ;-)
 
K

koko

But last time I looked the write speeds of Flash were pretty pathetic ..
or has it gotten way better all of a sudden? (none of them could come
close to keeping up with 'real' USB2, for instance).

PQI CoolDrive Pro (U339 Pro) 1 GB
read/write: 26.6 MB/s i 20.3 MB/s

looks more than decent to me
 
Y

YKhan

GSV said:
But last time I looked the write speeds of Flash were pretty pathetic ..
or has it gotten way better all of a sudden? (none of them could come
close to keeping up with 'real' USB2, for instance).

I think these things will become important, but so far not yet. The
advantage of flash are lightweight, and vibration resistence. These are
important in MP3 players, or other mobile devices. But if flash becomes
much larger, and starts to encroach into PC territory, then performance
will become more important. I can see a time when flash will be big
enough and cheap enough to accomodate even the whole Windows OS. It
could become a default boot device, with HD's becoming "just" data
devices.

Yousuf Khan
 
T

Tony Hill

[snipped]
As the articles notes, the crossover point between where flash becomes
cheaper than hard drives is increasing every year, and it's doing so
faster than the annual increase in drive size that consumers want.
Eventually that means that flash will become cheaper than hard disks
for the drive size that many people are buying. That being said
though, I see the timeframe for this cross-over as being roughly 10
years down the road. They at least have to get to the point where a
40GB flash drive is cheaper than a 40GB hard drive, and that will take
time.

Lessee....in college in the late 60's, we were told the drive cost/capacity
crossover point from magnetics to solid state was projected to be "5 years
away". And for as long as I can remember since that time, it's always been "5
years away".

Until tonite...

/daytripper (progress? ;-)

LOL! "It's the technology for the future. Always has been, always
will be" :>

You are quite right that the timeframe for this sort of cross-over
always seems to get pushed back, solid state vs. magnetic's is only
one of many examples. When I saw "roughly 10 years" I should perhaps
have put more of an emphasis on the 'roughly' part.

Still, that being said, I just don't see too many people buying the
latest and greatest 500GB drives. In fact, the largest drives I see
that are at all common are 250GB drives which made their debut a full
two and a half years ago (as a bit of a sidenote to go along with
that, it's taken us 2 1/2 years to get from 250GB drives to 500GB
drives, 6 months longer than one extended Moore period).

Anyway, I guess we'll see it when it arrives. Personally I expect to
see the first solid state hard drives seeing widespread use in non-PC
applications, in particularly gaming consoles. Actually, to be fair,
we've already seen solid state storage in gaming consoles, but I
expect it to continue and become more standard fair and in larger
sizes.
 
D

Del Cecchi

Tony said:
[snipped]
As the articles notes, the crossover point between where flash becomes
cheaper than hard drives is increasing every year, and it's doing so
faster than the annual increase in drive size that consumers want.
Eventually that means that flash will become cheaper than hard disks
for the drive size that many people are buying. That being said
though, I see the timeframe for this cross-over as being roughly 10
years down the road. They at least have to get to the point where a
40GB flash drive is cheaper than a 40GB hard drive, and that will take
time.

Lessee....in college in the late 60's, we were told the drive cost/capacity
crossover point from magnetics to solid state was projected to be "5 years
away". And for as long as I can remember since that time, it's always been "5
years away".

Until tonite...

/daytripper (progress? ;-)


LOL! "It's the technology for the future. Always has been, always
will be" :>

You are quite right that the timeframe for this sort of cross-over
always seems to get pushed back, solid state vs. magnetic's is only
one of many examples. When I saw "roughly 10 years" I should perhaps
have put more of an emphasis on the 'roughly' part.

Still, that being said, I just don't see too many people buying the
latest and greatest 500GB drives. In fact, the largest drives I see
that are at all common are 250GB drives which made their debut a full
two and a half years ago (as a bit of a sidenote to go along with
that, it's taken us 2 1/2 years to get from 250GB drives to 500GB
drives, 6 months longer than one extended Moore period).

Anyway, I guess we'll see it when it arrives. Personally I expect to
see the first solid state hard drives seeing widespread use in non-PC
applications, in particularly gaming consoles. Actually, to be fair,
we've already seen solid state storage in gaming consoles, but I
expect it to continue and become more standard fair and in larger
sizes.

ipod nano. 4G flash. The nano replaces the ipod mini which had a 4 or
6G hard disk drive.

How long before laptops with 20G of flash instead of a hard drive come
along?

del
 
R

Robert Redelmeier

Del Cecchi said:
ipod nano. 4G flash. The nano replaces the ipod mini
which had a 4 or 6G hard disk drive.
How long before laptops with 20G of flash instead of a hard
drive come along?

Well, there are some cost issues. IIRC, flash is still around
$50/GB while HD is a fifth or tenth that.

A longer term issue is around filesystem design. Flash has a
limited number of re-write cycles (10k?) and some designs (FAT*)
or usages (access times) may concentrate writes enough to cause
critical failures.

-- Robert
 
K

Keith R. Williams

Well, there are some cost issues. IIRC, flash is still around
$50/GB while HD is a fifth or tenth that.

Hundredth. It isn't impossible to find 100GB drives for $50. I bought a 160GB
drive for $80 months ago.
A longer term issue is around filesystem design. Flash has a
limited number of re-write cycles (10k?) and some designs (FAT*)
or usages (access times) may concentrate writes enough to cause
critical failures.

I was wondering that too so I pulled up some Spansion datasheets. They claim
100K[*] for their "mirror bit" technology and 1M[*] for the "floating-gate"
parts.

[*] Numbers are "typical".
 
D

Del Cecchi

Keith said:
Well, there are some cost issues. IIRC, flash is still around
$50/GB while HD is a fifth or tenth that.


Hundredth. It isn't impossible to find 100GB drives for $50. I bought a 160GB
drive for $80 months ago.

A longer term issue is around filesystem design. Flash has a
limited number of re-write cycles (10k?) and some designs (FAT*)
or usages (access times) may concentrate writes enough to cause
critical failures.


I was wondering that too so I pulled up some Spansion datasheets. They claim
100K[*] for their "mirror bit" technology and 1M[*] for the "floating-gate"
parts.

[*] Numbers are "typical".

But I don't need that much storage in my laptop. 20G would certainly do
it and I could probably get by with 10. I am at 13 now. But I could
get rid of some stuff.

So, when will the crossover get close for 20G? Be nice to not have to
worry about "click of death" or other hard drive failures on a laptop.
 
R

Robert Redelmeier

Keith R. Williams said:
Hundredth. It isn't impossible to find 100GB drives for $50.
I bought a 160GB drive for $80 months ago.

This sounds more like 3.5" desktop HDs. 2.5" laptop remains
more expensive (lower sales volume & lower unit capacity).

-- Robert
 
R

Robert Redelmeier

Del Cecchi said:
But I don't need that much storage in my laptop. 20G would
certainly do it and I could probably get by with 10.
I am at 13 now. But I could get rid of some stuff.

You might well be able to, but the footprint
for MS-WinXP is around that size.
So, when will the crossover get close for 20G? Be nice
to not have to worry about "click of death" or other hard
drive failures on a laptop.

Yes, it would. And I suspect that is the biggest driver.
Laptop HDs suffer miserable deaths.

-- Robert
 
K

Keith R. Williams

Keith said:
ipod nano. 4G flash. The nano replaces the ipod mini
which had a 4 or 6G hard disk drive.

How long before laptops with 20G of flash instead of a hard
drive come along?

Well, there are some cost issues. IIRC, flash is still around
$50/GB while HD is a fifth or tenth that.


Hundredth. It isn't impossible to find 100GB drives for $50. I bought a 160GB
drive for $80 months ago.

A longer term issue is around filesystem design. Flash has a
limited number of re-write cycles (10k?) and some designs (FAT*)
or usages (access times) may concentrate writes enough to cause
critical failures.


I was wondering that too so I pulled up some Spansion datasheets. They claim
100K[*] for their "mirror bit" technology and 1M[*] for the "floating-gate"
parts.

[*] Numbers are "typical".

But I don't need that much storage in my laptop. 20G would certainly do
it and I could probably get by with 10. I am at 13 now. But I could
get rid of some stuff.

I likely *could* get by with 10-20GB (IIRC this laptop has 30GB now - plenty
free). Hard disks don't come smaller than 20-40GB now. Flash is still
expensive though. Adding $500 (10GB) to the cost of a laptop won't sell. At
least I'd rather put that money into the display.
So, when will the crossover get close for 20G? Be nice to not have to
worry about "click of death" or other hard drive failures on a laptop.

"Click of Death" was a Zip drive failure mode, wasn't it? IMO they were
useless without being unreliable.

Laptop drives seem to be pretty robust, at least when not in operation. OTOH,
if flash were free it would be nice, yes. The write cycle limitation worries
me in this application though.
 
C

chrisv

Tony said:
By far the
most common hard drive size in new business computers is 40GB, the
smallest size offered. If they could get a 20GB drive for $10 less I
suspect that a lot of businesses would go that route.

For my office PC, I went with the quite affordable 37GB 10K RPM
Raptor. I've got 5GB filled. 8)
 
C

chrisv

Tony said:
Still, that being said, I just don't see too many people buying the
latest and greatest 500GB drives.

One good usage of a big drive is to enable a dual-boot Linux/Windows
machine, with plenty of space for both.
 
R

Roger Hunt

Write speeds are important for large files. But reading is a lot more
common than writing, and I assume that latency is a whole lot less for
flash than for 7,200RPM HDDS. ;-)
Fast write speeds are just as important for lots of small files, in my
experience, because the FAT has to be written to as well - much more
than with a few large files.
 

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