Fade to Grey Revisited

[Grinder]

Previously I had come to alt.comp.hardware to seek speculation about the
failure of a Gateway FPD1800 LCD monitor. The monitor was exhibiting a
pronounced reduction in brightness, most noticeably at the top edge and
diminishing down the screen. By the middle of the screen, brightness
appeared to be normal.

Paul was very helpful in suggesting that it might be the CCFL at the top
edge of the panel that had failed. Opening the booger up and swapping
the top and bottom lamps produced the same symptoms as before--a fade
from the top towards the bottom. Perhaps it's my speculation alone, but
that leads me to believe that it is the inverter, that drives the lamps,
that has gone Wilbanks.

I've taken that inverter out, and noticed something odd about it.

http://home.mchsi.com/~grinder/temp/inverter-96.jpg

The leftmost transformer (TM-008) appears to have vented. It doesn't
show up so well in the picture, but the corner of the board adjacent to
that transformer is globbed up with a crust that appears to have flowed
from the transformer. The odd thing, though, is that transformer is
closest to the connectors that feed the properly driven CCFLs. I cannot
specifically tell if that transformer is for the adjacent lamps, but it
makes ergonomic sense. At any rate:

Q1) Is it worth trying to replace this transformer?

I think my soldering skills are up to it, but are there realistic odds
that this would cure my problem?

Q2) Where can I get the replacement part?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I've looked into getting the whole inverter, but have had no joy.
InverterCentral.com reports a replacement part (KVBNKM045A) for an
FPD1800, but that cannot be right--it's much too large to fit into the
space provided. (Also, that company seems a little flaky. No one
answers the live chat, and even though a toll-free number is often
referred to on the site, there's none to be found.)

The panel inside of the FPD1800 is an LG LM181E3 (A2). I've found a
technical spec for that panel. It plainly states that "the inverter is
an external unit to the LCD." I can find no markings on the inverter
that suggests its maker or part number, other than a tiny sticker on the
backside that has "0112" and "17324M" on it.

 

[kony]

Previously I had come to alt.comp.hardware to seek speculation about the
failure of a Gateway FPD1800 LCD monitor. The monitor was exhibiting a
pronounced reduction in brightness, most noticeably at the top edge and
diminishing down the screen. By the middle of the screen, brightness
appeared to be normal.

Paul was very helpful in suggesting that it might be the CCFL at the top
edge of the panel that had failed. Opening the booger up and swapping
the top and bottom lamps produced the same symptoms as before--a fade
from the top towards the bottom. Perhaps it's my speculation alone, but
that leads me to believe that it is the inverter, that drives the lamps,
that has gone Wilbanks.

I've taken that inverter out, and noticed something odd about it.

http://home.mchsi.com/~grinder/temp/inverter-96.jpg

The leftmost transformer (TM-008) appears to have vented. It doesn't
show up so well in the picture, but the corner of the board adjacent to
that transformer is globbed up with a crust that appears to have flowed
from the transformer.

Transformers don't generally vent, except maybe the super
large liquid filled type... which that is not. It's hard to
tell from the small picture but it's probably just flux
residue left on during manufacturing, that has turned an
unpleasant color from long term exposure to moisture, dust,
and heat.

The odd thing, though, is that transformer is
closest to the connectors that feed the properly driven CCFLs. I cannot
specifically tell if that transformer is for the adjacent lamps, but it
makes ergonomic sense. At any rate:

Q1) Is it worth trying to replace this transformer?

Probably not. If I were to gander a guess, it'd be more
likely a FET or diode that went out, providing the caps
hadn't failed, but the same are used on both lamps and one
works, and neither "seems" to look bad from the picture.

What I'd probably do is take a stiff toothbrush and some
alcohol/detergent mix, and scrub all the crud/flux/etc off
the board, briefly rise it off, shake it to get bulk water
out that may have wicked into the transformers, and let it
air dry for a few days.

I think my soldering skills are up to it, but are there realistic odds
that this would cure my problem?

Can't tell for sure from the picture but if the transformer
is through-hole rather than surface mount, removing it
should be a piece of cake, just use desoldering braid, a
bulbed pump, or a spring-loaded sucker (if no fragile
surface mount parts very near the pins on the back).

Q2) Where can I get the replacement part?

Determine if you need one at all... pull the transformer off
and check winding resistance (for shorts)... though since
it's high(er) voltage, it's possible to get some arching a
multimeter wouldn't pick up as a short.

I've looked into getting the whole inverter, but have had no joy.
InverterCentral.com reports a replacement part (KVBNKM045A) for an
FPD1800, but that cannot be right--it's much too large to fit into the
space provided. (Also, that company seems a little flaky. No one
answers the live chat, and even though a toll-free number is often
referred to on the site, there's none to be found.)

If you feel comfortable soldering *anything*/everything, the
form factor doesn't matter so much as sourcing parts. Get
what you can as discrete parts but if it turns out a part
can't be sourced or identified, you'll have to see what else
is available. If you can ID parts (I can't see how this is
controlled, whether another chip on the back or ?) you might
be able to reverse engineer it enough to figure out if a
suitable generic with similar form-factor will fit (In the
monitor case location (and mounting studs if you don't want
to have to fabricate a new standoff... something we can't
see nor determine your willingness to go to lengthly
efforts).

BTW, PC Connection has a low-end HannsG 19" for $100 + S/H
after rebate... to put cost and time into perspective. If
you don't care about being able to adjust brightness, you
might be able to pick up some random small invertor board,
though given how many LCDs are almost blindingly bright when
set to 100% brightness, it might not be ideal.

The panel inside of the FPD1800 is an LG LM181E3 (A2). I've found a
technical spec for that panel. It plainly states that "the inverter is
an external unit to the LCD." I can find no markings on the inverter
that suggests its maker or part number, other than a tiny sticker on the
backside that has "0112" and "17324M" on it.

You might measure the dimensions and keep looking on the web
& ebay, there may be other monitors that have used same or
similar enough.

 

[Grinder]

Thanks for your thoughts kony. I've already replaced the monitor with a
Samsung 960BF (very happy,) but can't quite bring myself to discard what
has been a very faithful component.

 

[Paul]

Previously I had come to alt.comp.hardware to seek speculation about the
failure of a Gateway FPD1800 LCD monitor. The monitor was exhibiting a
pronounced reduction in brightness, most noticeably at the top edge and
diminishing down the screen. By the middle of the screen, brightness
appeared to be normal.

Paul was very helpful in suggesting that it might be the CCFL at the top
edge of the panel that had failed. Opening the booger up and swapping
the top and bottom lamps produced the same symptoms as before--a fade
from the top towards the bottom. Perhaps it's my speculation alone, but
that leads me to believe that it is the inverter, that drives the lamps,
that has gone Wilbanks.

I've taken that inverter out, and noticed something odd about it.

http://home.mchsi.com/~grinder/temp/inverter-96.jpg

The leftmost transformer (TM-008) appears to have vented. It doesn't
show up so well in the picture, but the corner of the board adjacent to
that transformer is globbed up with a crust that appears to have flowed
from the transformer. The odd thing, though, is that transformer is
closest to the connectors that feed the properly driven CCFLs. I cannot
specifically tell if that transformer is for the adjacent lamps, but it
makes ergonomic sense. At any rate:

Q1) Is it worth trying to replace this transformer?

I think my soldering skills are up to it, but are there realistic odds
that this would cure my problem?

Q2) Where can I get the replacement part?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I've looked into getting the whole inverter, but have had no joy.
InverterCentral.com reports a replacement part (KVBNKM045A) for an
FPD1800, but that cannot be right--it's much too large to fit into the
space provided. (Also, that company seems a little flaky. No one
answers the live chat, and even though a toll-free number is often
referred to on the site, there's none to be found.)

The panel inside of the FPD1800 is an LG LM181E3 (A2). I've found a
technical spec for that panel. It plainly states that "the inverter is
an external unit to the LCD." I can find no markings on the inverter
that suggests its maker or part number, other than a tiny sticker on the
backside that has "0112" and "17324M" on it.

Maybe someone in sci.electronics group or related can offer some suggestions ?
I never was any good at tracing down transformers. The easy ones, are
ones with a brand name, like "Pulse". But stuff with just alphanumeric
strings, I wouldn't know where to start.

Web search:

Panel datasheet (looks like lamps and panel together are an assembly)
Panel has four lamps and four lamp connectors. Looks like maybe
one transformer on your inverter, drives two lamps ?

http://eio.com/lm181e3-a2.pdf

Replacement inverter, so they claim. But your picture of the
inverter, looks to have more pins on the tiny input connector
from the logic. While the high voltage side may be suitable for
your panel, the low voltage side may not have the same interface as
is used in your monitor. You'd have to check the pin counts on
the low voltage connectors and see if they are the same or not,
to see if this is even in the ballpark.

http://www.ergpower.com/pdf30/dmd42703.pdf

The same company offers a parts cross reference table:
http://www.ergpower.com/pdf30/cross.pdf

This doc has some comments on inverter operation.
It says those tiny caps near the output are an important
part of the circuit. The inverter operates in a constant
current mode, and the tiny caps near the connector are
part of the ballast. Since you have that "goo" near one cap,
maybe that is upsetting its tiny capacitance value.

http://www.ergpower.com/pdf30/confer.pdf

So while I don't have any really useful replacement info,
I'd try cleaning up that "goo" and see if things improve.
If the goo is not water-soluble, that cleanup may be
harder than it sounds. Since there is high voltage
in that region, you don't want to leave any
cleaning residue. Even something as trivial as dirt
underneath one of those HV caps, can arc over when
energized.

Paul

 

[Mitch Crane]

Perhaps it's my speculation alone, but that leads me to believe that
it is the inverter, that drives the lamps, that has gone Wilbanks.

LOL @ "gone Wilbanks".

Have you put an ohm meter on the transformers?

 

[paulgq]

Our experience with InverterCentral.com has been superior. Perhaps
they are going through growing pains like many companies do. We could
not find where InverterCentral.com incorrectly advertises a toll free
number on their site. They operate 100% web based like many other top
Internet based companies. They do list the number to their operations
center on the top of their Terms page.

InverterCentral.com shows the ALPS KUBNKM045A as working with the
Gateway FPD1830 and Dell 1800FP desktop displays. We see at least 2
other vendors selling the same product for these models. This inverter
drives 6 lamps.

Their Ebay liquidations mention toll free Live Support on their about
me page. Since ebay strictly prohibits the use of the using a link
labeled "Live Support" this is the best alternate phrase to use because
their Live Support is in fact free of any tolls or charges. Ebay
confirmed that the term "live support" is prohibited in their listings
and can only be mentioned from the "about me" page.

We received notice from InverterCentral.com that their Live Support has
undergone some backend changes this past week including the addition of
support slots for customers to wait in if they choose to.

The delays in responding to approximately 20% of live supports calls
were a result of the overwhelming popularity of their live support
system. Further automation of their order status, instant search
requests, and live support should greatly improve support repsonse
times. A FAQ system will be added in Q1/07 to assit in the support
side of their operation.

 

[Paul]

Our experience with InverterCentral.com has been...

Jeez, you didn't even change your email address before you
wrote that. One look at: http://www.providencedata.com/
shows who you work for.

Paul

 

[kony]

Jeez, you didn't even change your email address before you
wrote that. One look at: http://www.providencedata.com/
shows who you work for.

Paul

Isn't it a good thing though, to not hide this? I'd like to
know when someone has affiliations but IMO, he should have
put that in a sig too

 

[Grinder]

Our experience with InverterCentral.com has been superior. Perhaps
they are going through growing pains like many companies do. We could
not find where InverterCentral.com incorrectly advertises a toll free
number on their site. They operate 100% web based like many other top
Internet based companies. They do list the number to their operations
center on the top of their Terms page.

InverterCentral.com shows the ALPS KUBNKM045A as working with the
Gateway FPD1830 and Dell 1800FP desktop displays. We see at least 2
other vendors selling the same product for these models. This inverter
drives 6 lamps.

Yes, which apparently has nothing to do with my *Gateway FPD1800* that
has an inverter that drives 4 lamps, and has a much smaller profile than
a KUBNKM045A. If your product lookup yields no replacement part, does
it just return a closest match?

Their Ebay liquidations mention toll free Live Support on their about
me page. Since ebay strictly prohibits the use of the using a link
labeled "Live Support" this is the best alternate phrase to use because
their Live Support is in fact free of any tolls or charges. Ebay
confirmed that the term "live support" is prohibited in their listings
and can only be mentioned from the "about me" page.

We received notice from InverterCentral.com that their Live Support has
undergone some backend changes this past week including the addition of
support slots for customers to wait in if they choose to.

Yes, I noticed that your system was kind enough to put me first in line
with an approximate 5 minute wait for *hours* on end. Also, it would
permit me to login to the chat system with "PaulGQ" who would never
respond. Also, you don't answer your phone over at Providence Data.

The delays in responding to approximately 20% of live supports calls
were a result of the overwhelming popularity of their live support
system. Further automation of their order status, instant search
requests, and live support should greatly improve support repsonse
times. A FAQ system will be added in Q1/07 to assit in the support
side of their operation.

Great, more options to not talk with a human being about why their
automated system is producing shit results.

 

[paulgq]

shit results? get your facts straight and adjust your poor attitude.

The system doesn't just spit out the closest match, your specific model
is not listed in their database and is not supported by them at all.
It seems this has been your mistake all along.

In terms of closest match, there are plans to implement suggested
search results early next year based on the user's input. This will
decrease the amount of search load by 20% and bring more reults to the
user's desktop faster.

Again, the InverterCentral.com operation is 100% web based. Anything
more than email support is a bonus to their valued customers. After
sepaking with them regarding this post, they have no record of any
emails from you or anyone regarding that model inverter. I guess you
didn't see the instant search tool when you could not find what you
were looking for. I also guess you didn't see where it says you must
leave a message with your email address when you call.

In terms of Live Support, it is possible you could have waited more
than a half hour as some support calls require this level of support.
It is rare, but it does happen. Many support calls last under a minute
with easy questions and quick answers.

If a support slot became available and you missed it, and then someone
else who was waiting for support stepped in, it may appear like one
long hold period. The reality is that it was several short periods and
you didn't see the login button appear and then disappear each time.
At 60 support calls every day, people such as yourself asking for free
live support must be diligent when a slot becomes available. Also be
patient if support staff has to step away from their desk to handle
other duties.

Like InverterCentral.com, we at ProvidenceData.com do not offer
telephone support to Internet customers. This helps limit our exposure
to people who post erronious information and spout off on public
forums.

 

[Grinder]

shit results? get your facts straight and adjust your poor attitude.

The system doesn't just spit out the closest match, your specific model
is not listed in their database and is not supported by them at all.
It seems this has been your mistake all along.

What's with "them?" Don't you work for that organization?

At any rate, when I enter my model number, "their" system does produce a
result -- an inverter that is not compatible with my display. That
would be the "shit result" that I was referring to earlier. I'm glad to
see, however, that you've gotten that glitch fixed.

In terms of closest match, there are plans to implement suggested
search results early next year based on the user's input. This will
decrease the amount of search load by 20% and bring more reults to the
user's desktop faster.

Again, the InverterCentral.com operation is 100% web based. Anything
more than email support is a bonus to their valued customers. After
sepaking with them regarding this post, they have no record of any
emails from you or anyone regarding that model inverter. I guess you
didn't see the instant search tool when you could not find what you
were looking for. I also guess you didn't see where it says you must
leave a message with your email address when you call.

I did see the instant search tool, and it produced a shit result, as
detailed above. It is true that I did not send an email. Who knows,
maybe "they" would have responded to that even though you did not answer
your online chat or telephone.

Why do you keep referring to InverterCentral as "them" when you're the
one that's registered the domain, and the name that comes up when
logging into chat? Don't you think it's obvious enough that it's your
business Mr. Grimshaw, and you're just trying to rehabilitate this incident?

[snipped remaining rationalizations]

 

[CBFalconer]

shit results? get your facts straight and adjust your poor attitude.

The system doesn't just spit out the closest match, your specific
model is not listed in their database and is not supported by them
at all. It seems this has been your mistake all along.

.... snip ...

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