External Raid box

[Matt Silberstein]

I am still working on spec my system. In a perfect world I will need
about at terabyte of storage, but it does not have to be the fastest
in the world, that will be for music files, not video or swap or any
such thing. I figure on Raid 5. At the moment it looks like 250GB
drives are the best bang for the buck, but that would mean 5 drives
and it looks like most raid cards I can find just do 4. So, either I
am going to go with larger drives or re-figure my needs.

Anyway, my question here was about an external box. Again, in a
perfect world I could get a nice smallish box, put in 4 (cause I can't
do 5 or 6) hard drives and connect them to the raid sata ports. But
none of the raid cards I can find (at least in my price range) have 4
external ports.

So, my questions. Is there a card ($100 price range) that has 4 (or 5
or 6, but that is asking a lot) external sata ports? If not, it is
reasonable to try to take the sata cables into the internal ports on
the card? Finally, if I can't find a suitable box, it seems that I
should be able to make a box to hold the drives. I would just have to
put in a power supply, mounting hardware, and some fans. (Oh, and a
switch). Is that just nonsense?

TIA.


--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"

 

[Gazwad]

Matt Silberstein <[email protected]>, the
nauseating itinerant and macho slave-boy who likes immodest anal
brutality with horses, and whose partner is a fancy-girl with a soft

I am still working on spec my system. In a perfect world I will need
about at terabyte of storage, but it does not have to be the fastest
in the world, that will be for music files, not video or swap or any
such thing. I figure on Raid 5. At the moment it looks like 250GB
drives are the best bang for the buck, but that would mean 5 drives
and it looks like most raid cards I can find just do 4. So, either I
am going to go with larger drives or re-figure my needs.

Anyway, my question here was about an external box. Again, in a
perfect world I could get a nice smallish box, put in 4 (cause I can't
do 5 or 6) hard drives and connect them to the raid sata ports. But
none of the raid cards I can find (at least in my price range) have 4
external ports.

So, my questions. Is there a card ($100 price range) that has 4 (or 5
or 6, but that is asking a lot) external sata ports? If not, it is
reasonable to try to take the sata cables into the internal ports on
the card? Finally, if I can't find a suitable box, it seems that I
should be able to make a box to hold the drives. I would just have to
put in a power supply, mounting hardware, and some fans. (Oh, and a
switch). Is that just nonsense?

TIA.

Netgear SC101



--
For my own part, I have never had a thought which I could not set down
in words with even more distinctness than that with which I conceived
it. There is, however, a class of fancies of exquisite delicacy which
are not thoughts, and to which as yet I have found it absolutely
impossible to adapt to language. These fancies arise in the soul, alas
how rarely. Only at epochs of most intense tranquillity, when the
bodily and mental health are in perfection. And at those weird points
of time, where the confines of the waking world blend with the world of
dreams. And so I captured this fancy, where all that we see, or seem,
is but a dream within a dream.

 

[kony]

I am still working on spec my system. In a perfect world I will need
about at terabyte of storage, but it does not have to be the fastest
in the world, that will be for music files, not video or swap or any
such thing. I figure on Raid 5. At the moment it looks like 250GB
drives are the best bang for the buck, but that would mean 5 drives
and it looks like most raid cards I can find just do 4. So, either I
am going to go with larger drives or re-figure my needs.

Well you're about to mention the external box, so how did
you plan on getting the data bus from this internal card out
to it? I mean, if you really want a mass of drives and RAID
5 in an external box, you'd traditionally be looking at
SCSI.

So far as # drives vs capacity, sure, it's obvious enough
that you'll have to use bigger drives. We can only assume
that when planning for 1TB, this includes plenty of reserve
capacity (free space) since one who has already found a need
for a TB, might easily expand the data store.

Anyway, my question here was about an external box. Again, in a
perfect world I could get a nice smallish box, put in 4 (cause I can't
do 5 or 6) hard drives and connect them to the raid sata ports. But
none of the raid cards I can find (at least in my price range) have 4
external ports.

Have you found a lot in your price range that do RAID5?
Perhaps easier to just ask, what is that price range?

I also have to wonder how you're going about obtaining or
creating this "smallish box", or to put it another way, you
might be able to just skip the whole external SATA route and
make the smallish external box it's own host (aka- minimal
motherboard and CPU) and network it, since as you wrote this
is for storage with low-bandwidth requirements.

So, my questions. Is there a card ($100 price range) that has 4 (or 5
or 6, but that is asking a lot) external sata ports? If not, it is
reasonable to try to take the sata cables into the internal ports on
the card?

Don't know about a card that is as you want, but yes it's
reasonable to take internal cables out the back. For a
finished look and better strain-relief, I suggest getting
some real "strain relief" chassis plugs and drilling a few
holes in a rear slot-bracket cover, feeding the cables
through it. Not really necessary though, and come to think
of it you haven't specified the distance so you'll have to
consider what cables you'll use and whether the extra few
inches (from internal SATA jacks) are significant... might
take up about 6-10 inches of cable presuming you leave a
little slack to reduce cable kinking or connector stress.

Finally, if I can't find a suitable box, it seems that I
should be able to make a box to hold the drives. I would just have to
put in a power supply, mounting hardware, and some fans. (Oh, and a
switch). Is that just nonsense?

Sure, it's quite possible to make one, depending on your
skills, tools and materials available, and value of your
time. We can't know if you need it *pretty* or if
industrial would work, nor if you want to set it up so it
turns on automagically when the system or has to be manually
powered on & off. Define exactly what you need and what
concessions you would make for lesser time or money spent.

You could of course just buy one ready made, some are rather
expensive,
http://www.mcpb.com/html/cse.54s5d.s6b.html
and some pretty reasonable considering the small market
segment,
http://www.directron.com/cdtower5bay.html

That 2nd one is 5.25", wider than needed for 3.5" HDDs, but
when you consider that a full (PS2) sized PSU is 150mm or
almost 6" wide itself, an enclosure that uses a standard PSU
does make for cost reduction over a specialized PSU.

The cheapest would be to just head down to a local mom-n-pop
computer shop and see what they have in the way of used
cases... pull out all the top bay covers, throw a filter
panel over the entire area and mount all the drives up top
instead of in the (normally poorly cooled) lower HDD rack.

 

[Matt Silberstein]

Matt Silberstein <[email protected]>, the
nauseating itinerant and macho slave-boy who likes immodest anal
brutality with horses, and whose partner is a fancy-girl with a soft


Netgear SC101

It only holds two drives and only does raid 0 or 1. At 0 I don't have
any protection, at 1 I need far too many of the boxes.


--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"

 

[Matt Silberstein]

Well you're about to mention the external box, so how did
you plan on getting the data bus from this internal card out
to it? I mean, if you really want a mass of drives and RAID
5 in an external box, you'd traditionally be looking at
SCSI.

So far as # drives vs capacity, sure, it's obvious enough
that you'll have to use bigger drives. We can only assume
that when planning for 1TB, this includes plenty of reserve
capacity (free space) since one who has already found a need
for a TB, might easily expand the data store.

I have about 2/3 of that much data, but I strongly doubt it will grow
all that much. This is a music collection that has taken a very long
time to build, I don't expect it to grow all that much.

Have you found a lot in your price range that do RAID5?
Perhaps easier to just ask, what is that price range?

I found some cards in the $1-200 range that seem to do Raid5. More
than that and I will give up on external box.

I also have to wonder how you're going about obtaining or
creating this "smallish box", or to put it another way, you
might be able to just skip the whole external SATA route and
make the smallish external box it's own host (aka- minimal
motherboard and CPU) and network it, since as you wrote this
is for storage with low-bandwidth requirements.

I am considering that as well. But all of the small motherboard
systems have no room for drives. That would mean building a real
computer case myself which I would try, but I would fail at.

Don't know about a card that is as you want, but yes it's
reasonable to take internal cables out the back. For a
finished look and better strain-relief, I suggest getting
some real "strain relief" chassis plugs and drilling a few
holes in a rear slot-bracket cover, feeding the cables
through it. Not really necessary though, and come to think
of it you haven't specified the distance so you'll have to
consider what cables you'll use and whether the extra few
inches (from internal SATA jacks) are significant... might
take up about 6-10 inches of cable presuming you leave a
little slack to reduce cable kinking or connector stress.

I don't have a plan yet on the distance. But I would do the extra work
to make it finished anyway.

Sure, it's quite possible to make one, depending on your
skills, tools and materials available, and value of your
time. We can't know if you need it *pretty* or if
industrial would work, nor if you want to set it up so it
turns on automagically when the system or has to be manually
powered on & off. Define exactly what you need and what
concessions you would make for lesser time or money spent.

I can do lots of stuff and it is my "spare" time. I don't mind
flipping some switches. Right now I am doing a sanity check and you
(foolishly) are letting me think I am sane. Among other things I am
trying to decide between getting a big computer and getting a little
one and the external storage. It is not really a technical question, I
just need to know the technical parameters to allow me to decide on
the rest.

You could of course just buy one ready made, some are rather
expensive,
http://www.mcpb.com/html/cse.54s5d.s6b.html
and some pretty reasonable considering the small market
segment,
http://www.directron.com/cdtower5bay.html

That 2nd one is 5.25", wider than needed for 3.5" HDDs, but
when you consider that a full (PS2) sized PSU is 150mm or
almost 6" wide itself, an enclosure that uses a standard PSU
does make for cost reduction over a specialized PSU.

Thanks, I had not found anything in that price range.

The cheapest would be to just head down to a local mom-n-pop
computer shop and see what they have in the way of used
cases... pull out all the top bay covers, throw a filter
panel over the entire area and mount all the drives up top
instead of in the (normally poorly cooled) lower HDD rack.

Good idea.
--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"

 

[Toshi1873]

I am still working on spec my system. In a perfect world I will need
about at terabyte of storage, but it does not have to be the fastest
in the world, that will be for music files, not video or swap or any
such thing. I figure on Raid 5. At the moment it looks like 250GB
drives are the best bang for the buck, but that would mean 5 drives
and it looks like most raid cards I can find just do 4. So, either I
am going to go with larger drives or re-figure my needs.

Anyway, my question here was about an external box. Again, in a
perfect world I could get a nice smallish box, put in 4 (cause I can't
do 5 or 6) hard drives and connect them to the raid sata ports. But
none of the raid cards I can find (at least in my price range) have 4
external ports.

Promise used to (still does?) make an external RAID box. IIRC, it was
8-bays (so 8 3.5" PATA drives) and converted it to SCSI output which you
could then hook to your system. Price for the unit was around $2000.

So, my questions. Is there a card ($100 price range) that has 4 (or 5
or 6, but that is asking a lot) external sata ports? If not, it is
reasonable to try to take the sata cables into the internal ports on
the card? Finally, if I can't find a suitable box, it seems that I
should be able to make a box to hold the drives. I would just have to
put in a power supply, mounting hardware, and some fans. (Oh, and a
switch). Is that just nonsense?

Now for alternatives. With the right case, you can easily fit (8) 3.5"
drives into something like the Antec p180 case. Four drives in the
lower bays and use a Coolermaster 4-in-3 cooling block allows you to put
four more drives in the upper 5.25" bays (using up 3 of the 4 bays).
The Coolermaster has a 120mm fan on the front, uses up 3 5.25" bays and
can pack in up to (4) 3.5" drives.

Power supply for all that should be a 550-600W. I built mine with
5400rpm drives for lower power consumption. But I also did it in Linux
using software RAID. (I have 2 RAID1 arrays and a 4-drive RAID5 array.)

The 300GB drives are about the same cost as the 250GB drives on a $/GB
basis. And the 400GB drives are only marginally more expensive on a
$/GB basis. (I'd use 400GB drives.)

As for finding a RAID card... you're going to likely have to spend $200-
$400 for a RAID5 hardware card that can support 4+ discs. (Which is
another advantage to software RAID in Linux, I could use multiple 2-port
cards that were only $40 each.)

 

[Matt Silberstein]

Promise used to (still does?) make an external RAID box. IIRC, it was
8-bays (so 8 3.5" PATA drives) and converted it to SCSI output which you
could then hook to your system. Price for the unit was around $2000.

Definitely out of my price range, even with 8 drives.

Now for alternatives. With the right case, you can easily fit (8) 3.5"
drives into something like the Antec p180 case. Four drives in the
lower bays and use a Coolermaster 4-in-3 cooling block allows you to put
four more drives in the upper 5.25" bays (using up 3 of the 4 bays).
The Coolermaster has a 120mm fan on the front, uses up 3 5.25" bays and
can pack in up to (4) 3.5" drives.

Power supply for all that should be a 550-600W. I built mine with
5400rpm drives for lower power consumption. But I also did it in Linux
using software RAID. (I have 2 RAID1 arrays and a 4-drive RAID5 array.)

The 300GB drives are about the same cost as the 250GB drives on a $/GB
basis. And the 400GB drives are only marginally more expensive on a
$/GB basis. (I'd use 400GB drives.)

You are running this as a NAS right?

As for finding a RAID card... you're going to likely have to spend $200-
$400 for a RAID5 hardware card that can support 4+ discs. (Which is
another advantage to software RAID in Linux, I could use multiple 2-port
cards that were only $40 each.)

--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"

 

[Toshi1873]

You are running this as a NAS right?

Yes, Gentoo Linux + Samba.

The real key is the 4-in-3 or 3-in-2 cooling units that let you put (4)
3.5" drives in (3) 5.25" bays or (3) 3.5" drives in (2) 5.25" bays.

If you're worried about heat, nothing beats an 80mm (3-in-2) or a 120mm
(4-in-3) fan blowing directly over your hard drives. For instance, on
my Antec Sonata case. The drives down below in the internal hard drive
bays run at 45C. The two drives in the 3-in-2 cooling unit run at 35C.
I typically put one less drive then the maximum in those cooling units
so that I can have more space between the drives (better airflow).

Plus, an 80mm fan makes a heck of a lot less noise then a pair of 40mm
fans that are on most 5.25" bay coolers. (And with better airflow,
IMO.)

 

[Matt Silberstein]

Yes, Gentoo Linux + Samba.

The real key is the 4-in-3 or 3-in-2 cooling units that let you put (4)
3.5" drives in (3) 5.25" bays or (3) 3.5" drives in (2) 5.25" bays.

If you're worried about heat, nothing beats an 80mm (3-in-2) or a 120mm
(4-in-3) fan blowing directly over your hard drives. For instance, on
my Antec Sonata case. The drives down below in the internal hard drive
bays run at 45C. The two drives in the 3-in-2 cooling unit run at 35C.
I typically put one less drive then the maximum in those cooling units
so that I can have more space between the drives (better airflow).

Plus, an 80mm fan makes a heck of a lot less noise then a pair of 40mm
fans that are on most 5.25" bay coolers. (And with better airflow,
IMO.)

I was thinking (fantasizing?) of making my own box (not a NAS, just a
external drive box) with Plexiglas, not front or back, just sides and
a top and bottom. Give plenty of pace between the drives and I can
probably do without a fan except for the PSU. I figure about 5" wide,
6" deep, and 15" high would do for 4 drives. Mount the power supply at
the top blowing the heat out of the box.

I wonder what the minimum size I could get to run Linux and make a
NAS? Off to a Linux group I suppose.


--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"

 

[kony]

I was thinking (fantasizing?) of making my own box (not a NAS, just a
external drive box) with Plexiglas, not front or back, just sides and
a top and bottom. Give plenty of pace between the drives and I can
probably do without a fan except for the PSU.

Genearally speaking, no you will need a fan. The air needs
moved, drives now produce too much heat for passive cooling.

IF you were to construct this such that the PSU exhausted
out the rear (of sufficient flow rate), and intake was
through the front between the drives, that would work.

I figure about 5" wide,

With it that close to being wide enough for an optical
drive, why not just make it that wide?

I also have to wonder what you would do for drive rails,
since that is too wide for straight mounting but not wide
enough for traditional rails.

6" deep, and 15" high would do for 4 drives. Mount the power supply at
the top blowing the heat out of the box.

The most effective airflow will be across the bottom-side of
the drive. If you turned them up on end and had the intake
through an open botom, rather than open front/back, that
might be better except that places all the data cables
coming out the top or at least rerouted to go out the rear.

I wonder what the minimum size I could get to run Linux and make a
NAS? Off to a Linux group I suppose.

First would be picking a motherboard. Older generation
boards can be quite cheap but new ones like the Via Epia
series a lot smaller. If you mounted the PSU at the rear of
the box so it was deeper rather than taller you could do so
without much further increase in size, as 5-6" wide would
give enough clearance for the board situated alongside the
drive rack... you'd just need to make the tray swivel or
slide out so there was access to the side of the drives for
mounting or put them on rails instead.

 

[Matt Silberstein]

Genearally speaking, no you will need a fan. The air needs
moved, drives now produce too much heat for passive cooling.

IF you were to construct this such that the PSU exhausted
out the rear (of sufficient flow rate), and intake was
through the front between the drives, that would work.




With it that close to being wide enough for an optical
drive, why not just make it that wide?

I was including the plexi as part of the width, I was going with 3.5
drives.

I also have to wonder what you would do for drive rails,
since that is too wide for straight mounting but not wide
enough for traditional rails.

Yeah, I was not clear. I was going to make it for 3.5 drives and use
standard rails. 3.5 plus plexi and such about we have about 5".

The most effective airflow will be across the bottom-side of
the drive. If you turned them up on end and had the intake
through an open botom, rather than open front/back, that
might be better except that places all the data cables
coming out the top or at least rerouted to go out the rear.

Makes sense.

First would be picking a motherboard. Older generation
boards can be quite cheap but new ones like the Via Epia
series a lot smaller. If you mounted the PSU at the rear of
the box so it was deeper rather than taller you could do so
without much further increase in size, as 5-6" wide would
give enough clearance for the board situated alongside the
drive rack... you'd just need to make the tray swivel or
slide out so there was access to the side of the drives for
mounting or put them on rails instead.

I just spent the last few hours researching that option and it does
not look worth my while. But something else has reared its ugly head:
esata. Found a $130 4 port raid5 esata card. Now all I have to figure
out is the cables. The esata cables I have found go from the enclosure
connector, not the drive.

--
Matt Silberstein

Do something today about the Darfur Genocide

http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org

"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"

 

[kony]

I was including the plexi as part of the width, I was going with 3.5
drives.

So you will just have plexiglass on the outside or the
plexiglass walls will be the drive frame too? A so-called
3.5" drive is very near 4" wide, so that's a double-wall
design or 1/2" plexiglass? I don't see the need for 1/2"
plexi, unless you just happened to have some scraps it's
overkill and way more expensive than something thinner.
1/4" would be plenty.

Yeah, I was not clear. I was going to make it for 3.5 drives and use
standard rails. 3.5 plus plexi and such about we have about 5".

Ah, now I understand... ~ 4" drive + [2 * 3/8" rails] = 4
3/4".

 

[Banned Apache]

Matt Silberstein <[email protected]>, the squat
old man and buck-toothed she-male who likes debased dick sucking with
monkeys, and whose partner is a bar-girl with a shorn ****hole, wrote in

It only holds two drives and only does raid 0 or 1. At 0 I don't have
any protection, at 1 I need far too many of the boxes.

****-off then.



--
Lunch was Nice;
Grim moose kidney stones with cabbage preserve on top of appalling bat
gut with lemon sauce, arranged in a randomly twitching pot brimming with
unpalatable squares of octopus in fetid sardine juice, a side of
crackers and a mug of pap smear scrapings.