External Hard drive purchase ?

[Roger]

Hi all,

Merry Xmas to all you helpers. Here is my question,I wish to buy an
external hard drive for my back up. I Run Xp pro SP2 my USB Hub is 1.1
which is powered with four ports. I don't have much material to store so
around 250 gb would be ample. Most advertise USB 2.0 I believe this should
be ok for my 1.1 Hub but things would backup more slower. Can you give any
advice as I need to use something simple for my system back up just in case.
PS should it be a desk top or portable unit as latter appears cheaper

Regards Roger
==================================
====================================

 

[Paul]

Hi all,

Merry Xmas to all you helpers. Here is my question,I wish to buy an
external hard drive for my back up. I Run Xp pro SP2 my USB Hub is 1.1
which is powered with four ports. I don't have much material to store so
around 250 gb would be ample. Most advertise USB 2.0 I believe this should
be ok for my 1.1 Hub but things would backup more slower. Can you give any
advice as I need to use something simple for my system back up just in case.
PS should it be a desk top or portable unit as latter appears cheaper

Regards Roger

There are two ways to get drives. You can buy an enclosure with disk
ready made. Or, you can buy an enclosure separately from a drive mechanism
(two purchases).

The following comments address the ready-made external disk market.

The 2.5" ones tend to have better reviews than the 3.5" ones.
So that is a mark in favor of that particular type. I searched
Newegg in the external drive section, sorted the resulting units
by rating. and this is a device with good ratings. 90% of respondents
gave this a 5 star rating. What you're looking for in these reviews is,
"it was dead when I got it", or "it died after three weeks and took
all my data with it".

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16822136388

The 2.5" drive is bus powered, and typically does not include a power
supply. That means it will draw up to 5V @ 500mA from the computer
USB bus.

In some cases, the 2.5" drive doesn't succeed in spinning up properly,
due to exceeding the 500mA by a little bit. Some external 2.5"
disks come with a "Y" cable, with two connectors which plug into
the computer. One connector uses just two of its pins, to carry
additional power. The second connector is a regular USB connector.
Using this scheme, as long as the computer delivers power on both
leads, the 2.5" drive will spin. The two USB connectors together, give
up to 1000mA.

3.5" drives draw so much power, that they come with their own
adapter. In some cases, the provided adapter dies, leaving the
disk intact but unusable until a replacement power source is located.
So a 3.5" drive is likely to work immediately when you get it,
but if the power brick or built-in supply ever has a problem,
you could be searching for a replacement power brick or a
complete replacement enclosure. Same comments apply, if you lose
the adapter (which happens, as you'll find people looking for
adapters, and they don't even know what ratings it has).

One reason 2.5" drives may have better reviews, is because they
may product less heat in long term usage. The majority of 3.5"
products won't come with a fan for cooling. Since I like to
see a fan in my disk enclosures, I buy my own enclosure and
add a drive mechanism to it. That takes me five minutes of work
with a screwdriver. If there is a warranty issue, it is
either the enclosure warranty that I use, or the hard drive
mechanism warranty. So there can still be warranty coverage
by building your own solution.

The quality of empty hard drive enclosures that are for
sale, is quite variable. Some are total garbage. Some are
OK. Again, the reviews on Newegg can advise on which
are total dogs.

The best advice is, drives are cheap, and you should own two.
Make backups to both, and chances are, when you need to
do a restoration, one of the drives will work. You can alternate
between the drives, rather than make two backups each time.
That way, if one drive dies, you're using a bit older
backup from the other drive, but you're still covered.

You can use "Safely Remove", then disconnect the drive when
it is not being used. The main advantage of that, is protection
against lightning. If the backup drive is put in a safe place,
without an electrical connection, then if the PC is completely
blown up some day, your data may still be safe on the
external enclosure. If you're not worried about this, then
leave it connected. Most of the enclosures will spin down,
after a short period of inactivity. I like to disconnect
mine, because that's the kind of person I am.

HTH,
Paul

 

[Bill in Co.]

Hi all,

Merry Xmas to all you helpers. Here is my question,I wish to buy an
external hard drive for my back up. I Run Xp pro SP2 my USB Hub is 1.1
which is powered with four ports. I don't have much material to store so
around 250 gb would be ample. Most advertise USB 2.0 I believe this
should be ok for my 1.1 Hub but things would backup more slower.

A LOT slower. How about the idea of first getting a USB 2.0 card, so you
could use the much faster speed of USB 2.0? Or is that not practicable?

 

[Roger]

There are two ways to get drives. You can buy an enclosure with disk
ready made. Or, you can buy an enclosure separately from a drive mechanism
(two purchases).

The following comments address the ready-made external disk market.

The 2.5" ones tend to have better reviews than the 3.5" ones.
So that is a mark in favor of that particular type. I searched
Newegg in the external drive section, sorted the resulting units
by rating. and this is a device with good ratings. 90% of respondents
gave this a 5 star rating. What you're looking for in these reviews is,
"it was dead when I got it", or "it died after three weeks and took
all my data with it".

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16822136388


HTH,
Paul

{SNIP}
Well thank you for your detailed comments Paul, so I will now look at your
link, and correct me if I'm wrong for my above old system I can use a USB
2.0 disc unit on my 1.1 set up. Or for the amount of back up I have is there
an alternative, as XP back up tool does not give much option i.e. to a CD
etc. It looks as though you feel I would be better with a 2.5".

Thanks Again Roger
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Roger]

A LOT slower. How about the idea of first getting a USB 2.0 card, so
you could use the much faster speed of USB 2.0? Or is that not
practicable?


Well that's a possibility but am looking at cost, and my older pc with
800Mhz AMD board K7S5A with SIS 735 chipset.

On my PC hard drive very little is used i.e. 11GB used, over 65 GB free. So
some form of small back up at cheap pensioner cost would be ideal. I would
not mind my back up speed being slower, as I'm not in a rush yet.

Roger
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Bill in Co.]

On my PC hard drive very little is used i.e. 11GB used, over 65 GB free.
So
some form of small back up at cheap pensioner cost would be ideal. I would
not mind my back up speed being slower, as I'm not in a rush yet.

I think those USB 2.0 cards are pretty cheap though.
Even with 11 GB to backup, I think the difference would be quite
significant. I don't have the USB max speeds at my fingertips, however,
but just as a wild guess, using USB 1.1, I'm guessing it might take more
than an hour.

 

[Paul]

I think those USB 2.0 cards are pretty cheap though.
Even with 11 GB to backup, I think the difference would be quite
significant. I don't have the USB max speeds at my fingertips, however,
but just as a wild guess, using USB 1.1, I'm guessing it might take more
than an hour.

In the same order for the USB hard drive, a PCI USB2 card isn't going
to add much to the overall project cost. And it will be a damn sight more
responsive (by a factor of 30).

(5 port USB2 PCI card - needs an empty PCI slot inside the computer) $9.99
(Uses NEC uPD720101. Positives: Compatibility. Negatives: Sensitive to static.
Some people report the ports on the NEC based cards can die, but when the
ports fail, the failures are independent. The remaining ports continue
to work, at least, until they're all used up.)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815124008

USB2 devices are supposed to be backward compatible with USB1.1 ports.
So if a person has a computer with only USB1.1 ports, you can still
plug USB2 devices into those ports. For things like mass storage
devices, I would not expect a problem. Your transfer rate in
that case is 1MB/sec, rather than the 30MB/sec typically seen
on USB2 host ports.

There are some exceptions, but those exceptions have never been
provided with a text explanation of what the limitation might
be. Some devices simply won't perform their function well,
if the bandwidth is limited. (Imagine a device taking video
in real time, which is dropping a lot of frames.) But the times
I've seen the exception, there isn't even an explanation like that.
Instead, the description gives the impression it "doesn't work",
which I find hard to believe. I think there is some Apple USB2 product
like that, where the claim is it "doesn't work" if plugged into
a USB 1.1 port. I'm still waiting to see a report from someone
who has tried it.

Paul

 

[philo]

I think those USB 2.0 cards are pretty cheap though.
Even with 11 GB to backup, I think the difference would be quite
significant. I don't have the USB max speeds at my fingertips, however,
but just as a wild guess, using USB 1.1, I'm guessing it might take more
than an hour.

I actually have a USB 1.1 enclosure and I stopped using it years ago.

The data transfer time was *excruciating* slow . I *highly* advise
adding a PCI USB-2 card to the machine. They cost very little (under
$10 from Newegg) and are very easy to install

 

[Bill in Co.]

In the same order for the USB hard drive, a PCI USB2 card isn't going
to add much to the overall project cost. And it will be a damn sight more
responsive (by a factor of 30).

(5 port USB2 PCI card - needs an empty PCI slot inside the computer) $9.99
(Uses NEC uPD720101. Positives: Compatibility. Negatives: Sensitive to
static.
Some people report the ports on the NEC based cards can die, but when the
ports fail, the failures are independent. The remaining ports continue
to work, at least, until they're all used up.)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815124008

USB2 devices are supposed to be backward compatible with USB1.1 ports.
So if a person has a computer with only USB1.1 ports, you can still
plug USB2 devices into those ports. For things like mass storage
devices, I would not expect a problem. Your transfer rate in
that case is 1MB/sec, rather than the 30MB/sec typically seen
on USB2 host ports.

So let's see, for say 10 GB of data, at 1 MB/sec, we're looking at 10,000
seconds, vs 333 seconds for USB 1.1. Ideally.

10,000 seconds/3600 = 2.78 hrs, vs 333/3600 = 0.093 hrs (around a tenth of
an hour, or 6 minutes), if I didn't mess up the calculations. WOW, what a
difference!

Actually, these speeds sound a bit high (idealistic) to me, though; and
maybe in practice it's even less, and perhaps even significantly less, but
I'm not positive of that.

 

[Roger]

I actually have a USB 1.1 enclosure and I stopped using it years ago.

The data transfer time was *excruciating* slow . I *highly* advise adding
a PCI USB-2 card to the machine. They cost very little (under $10 from
Newegg) and are very easy to install

Changing my card seems the possibility now, would it be best to remove the
current USB card from machine and put USB 2.0 in that slot, and are those
leads universal for the new card type.

Roger
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

[Paul]

So let's see, for say 10 GB of data, at 1 MB/sec, we're looking at 10,000
seconds, vs 333 seconds for USB 1.1. Ideally.

10,000 seconds/3600 = 2.78 hrs, vs 333/3600 = 0.093 hrs (around a tenth of
an hour, or 6 minutes), if I didn't mess up the calculations. WOW, what a
difference!

Actually, these speeds sound a bit high (idealistic) to me, though; and
maybe in practice it's even less, and perhaps even significantly less, but
I'm not positive of that.

When I mention speeds such as 1MB/sec for USB 1.1 or 30MB/sec for USB 2.0,
those are ideal values you might see when copying a very large file to
a USB hard drive.

If there is backup software running, compressing things and generally
thrashing the heads on the source disk, it is quite possible to get
an apparently much lower transfer rate. I've had plenty of backup
software, that could only manage 5MB/sec. So having a 30MB/sec link
to the disk, isn't always the rate limiting factor.

I think you could see a 6 minute transfer time, if the 10GB of data
was available as a single file, and you wished to transfer it to
the external. I've benched with HDTune or the like, and can get
the 30MB/sec number.

If you look at the USB2 cable rate, it is 480 megabits per second.
Dividing by 8 gives 60MB/sec. Yet, the enclosures give 30MB/sec,
and the difference is due to the packet protocol used to do the
transfer. Someone did a calculation once, claiming that USB2
could give 57MB/sec under ideal (no protocol issues) type
conditions, but I'm still waiting to see a situation that
actually does that. Somewhere in the 30MB/sec range seems
to be what people can see.

Another tiny point about USB2 bandwidth, is it is shared over
multiple ports. If you use two USB2 cards, then each may manage
30MB/sec. If you connect two USB hard drives to one USB2 PCI card,
you may not get the entire 30MB/sec rate that way. For people
pushing the limitations, they may experience less than ideal
results. But if you're transferring from an internal disk
to the USB external via a USB2 PCI card, I would expect to
see 30MB/sec there. And the 6 minutes to transfer 10GB.

I've also tested a PCI USB 1.1 card (I have one in my junk box),
and when using my fast USB pen drive, I got 1MB/sec on that
one.

Paul

 

[Paul]

Changing my card seems the possibility now, would it be best to remove the
current USB card from machine and put USB 2.0 in that slot, and are those
leads universal for the new card type.

Roger
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

You may currently be using USB ports in the "I/O area" on the
back of the computer. Those would be ports supported by the
motherboard itself. There would be nothing to remove there.

(Picture of an I/O plate - plate snaps into computer case and surrounds built-in connectors)
(You might be using a USB connector in the I/O plate area.)

http://estore.asus.com/images/13-020010440.JPG

A desktop computer also has room for add-in cards,
with slot names such as PCI. Here, you can see a
card poking out through one of the slots used
for add-in cards. You have to look inside the computer,
to see if you have a spare (empty) slot for insertion
of an add-in card.

http://www.hardwarezone.com/img/data/articles/2008/2754/5 - Faceplate in place.jpg

The slot types have names, such as ISA, PCI, AGP, PCI Express.
Each slot has a different shape and count of contacts. PCI is
a very common type, and has been present in computers for
at least ten years. There are a couple very modern motherboards
that have no PCI slots. On other machines, you might find
anywhere from 1 to 5 of those slots. My current Core2 computer
has four PCI slots (an exception).

PCI is favored currently, when seeking the cheapest add-in card
possible. PCI is what makes a $10 card possible. Other formats
may be more expensive.

This article has pictures of some PCI slots. There are big and
small sized slots, with the big ones being more popular in
server type computers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventional_PCI

Your slots will look more like this. Check to see if any of them
look like this. These are spare PCI slots as seen on a home (desktop)
computer. In this picture, the faceplate area is to the left. The
key in the slot, is on the right. Having the key on the right,
means the slot accepts a 5V card (because the motherboard is using
5V I/O). PCI slots have two key positions, left and right, the left
one meaning 3.3V and the right one meaning 5V. The card only fits
in the slot, if the key fits a groove in the PCI card. The keying
is there to ensure only compatible cards can be inserted. If there
is incompatibility, you won't be able to seat the card. The keying
scheme prevents electrical mischief.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...I_Slots_Digon3.JPG/800px-PCI_Slots_Digon3.JPG

It is not as complicated as it sounds Just buy it and stuff
it in. I probably wouldn't waste an extra minute thinking about
it, and would tick the box to order the $10 card. Have a quick
look inside the machine, to make sure there is physical room for
it. And that check should be enough of a precaution. If you've
filled all the slots (or Dell filled them with stuff), then you
might have to spend more time investigating what your options are.

In this picture, you can see a computer with a purple colored
AGP slot for addition of a video card. You can see how it is
set back a bit, from the left hand faceplate area. The PCI slots
are also visible in this picture.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/AGP_slot.jpg

So if you own an IBM PC compatible desktop, chances are good
you have PCI slots, and that a PCI card purchased at retail,
is going to fit into it. If you own a high end Apple desktop
computer, sometimes you have to stop and ask more questions.

If you want more help, please give the make and model number
of the PC, or if you built the computer from parts, the
make and model number of the motherboard used in the build.
If we can find a picture of the product, we can point out
to you, where the slots are located.

Paul

 

[Roger]

You may currently be using USB ports in the "I/O area" on the
back of the computer. Those would be ports supported by the
motherboard itself. There would be nothing to remove there.

(Picture of an I/O plate - plate snaps into computer case and surrounds
built-in connectors)
(You might be using a USB connector in the I/O plate area.)

http://estore.asus.com/images/13-020010440.JPG

A desktop computer also has room for add-in cards,
with slot names such as PCI. Here, you can see a
card poking out through one of the slots used
for add-in cards. You have to look inside the computer,
to see if you have a spare (empty) slot for insertion
of an add-in card.

{SNIP}

Paul thank for your most detailed reply which I try to absorb. I'm not
worried about getting inside PC as I often clean there and have changed the
Ram. My board is K7s5a ECS I have the manual stored in My docs in adobe
PDF but are unable to sort out getting you a picture link of mainboard.
Looking at board it shows 5 PCI slots This was a made up PC. Looking at the
back of unit one of those slots is housing four USB ports this must have
been added later on an upgrade.as on drawing it only shows one usb1 next to
fp audio,woL1,FP1, SPK1, etc . I have 3 of those slots still with the blank
fitted.

Roger
======================================
=============================

 

[Paul]

Paul thank for your most detailed reply which I try to absorb. I'm not
worried about getting inside PC as I often clean there and have changed the
Ram. My board is K7s5a ECS I have the manual stored in My docs in adobe
PDF but are unable to sort out getting you a picture link of mainboard.
Looking at board it shows 5 PCI slots This was a made up PC. Looking at the
back of unit one of those slots is housing four USB ports this must have
been added later on an upgrade.as on drawing it only shows one usb1 next to
fp audio,woL1,FP1, SPK1, etc . I have 3 of those slots still with the blank
fitted.

Roger

I have a K7S5A manual on disk here. (I download a lot of different manuals,
so I have a small collection.)

There are two USB ports in your I/O area.

If you already have a PCI USB card, you should check Device Manager in WinXP,
and look for the word "Enhanced" in the USB section. The technique of checking
for USB2 is described in the link below.

So it could be, you already have USB2 and it might be on that PCI card.

If you're not seeing Enhanced, then perhaps the purchase of another card
would help.

I have a really old PCI USB card, which has USB 1.1 ports only on it,
so it isn't guaranteed that your PCI USB card is USB2. But if you check
Device Manager, you may be able to save yourself $10.

http://www.usbman.com/Guides/checking_for_usb_2.htm

"NEC PCI to USB Enhanced Host Controller (B1)"

That is an example of what is coming from a PCI USB2 card with a
NEC chip on it. So that machine has USB2 capability.

Paul

 

[Roger]

I have a K7S5A manual on disk here. (I download a lot of different
manuals,
so I have a small collection.)

There are two USB ports in your I/O area.

If you already have a PCI USB card, you should check Device Manager in
WinXP,
and look for the word "Enhanced" in the USB section. The technique of
checking
for USB2 is described in the link below.

So it could be, you already have USB2 and it might be on that PCI card.

If you're not seeing Enhanced, then perhaps the purchase of another card
would help.

I have a really old PCI USB card, which has USB 1.1 ports only on it,
so it isn't guaranteed that your PCI USB card is USB2. But if you check
Device Manager, you may be able to save yourself $10.

http://www.usbman.com/Guides/checking_for_usb_2.htm

"NEC PCI to USB Enhanced Host Controller (B1)"

That is an example of what is coming from a PCI USB2 card with a
NEC chip on it. So that machine has USB2 capability.

Paul It looks a basic set to me, e.g. showing 1 Logitech Camera, 1
Generic USB hub, 4 Lucent QuadraBus host Controller, 2 SIS 7001 PCI to USB
host, 6 USB Root Hub.

Roger

 

[Paul]

Paul It looks a basic set to me, e.g. showing 1 Logitech Camera, 1
Generic USB hub, 4 Lucent QuadraBus host Controller, 2 SIS 7001 PCI to USB
host, 6 USB Root Hub.

Roger

According to this page...

http://www.usbman.com/Guides/HowTo_Identify_HostController.htm

the SIS7001 has this as its major entry. I can't tell if one or
two USB Root Hub entries go with that.

http://www.usbman.com/Guides/HowTo_1.jpg

SiS 7001 PCI to USB Open Host Controller

Perhaps the Lucent QuadraBus is your PCI card ?

Wow, they even have the Lucent Quadrabus as well. The text
below the picture indicates which entries belong to it.

http://www.usbman.com/Guides/HowTo_8.gif

Lucent USB Open Host Controller (x4)
USB Root Hub (x4)

So that seems to account for your entries. A Brazilian web page
is still selling a QuadraBus card, and their advert mentions "1.1",
so chances are that card is a slow one.

Looks like you'll need to fork out that $10 after all

If you're not using the QuadraBus for anything, you could
even pull it, and put the USB2 card in its place.

Paul

 

[Roger]

According to this page...

http://www.usbman.com/Guides/HowTo_Identify_HostController.htm

the SIS7001 has this as its major entry. I can't tell if one or
two USB Root Hub entries go with that.

http://www.usbman.com/Guides/HowTo_1.jpg

SiS 7001 PCI to USB Open Host Controller

Perhaps the Lucent QuadraBus is your PCI card ?

Wow, they even have the Lucent Quadrabus as well. The text
below the picture indicates which entries belong to it.

http://www.usbman.com/Guides/HowTo_8.gif

Lucent USB Open Host Controller (x4)
USB Root Hub (x4)

So that seems to account for your entries. A Brazilian web page
is still selling a QuadraBus card, and their advert mentions "1.1",
so chances are that card is a slow one.

Looks like you'll need to fork out that $10 after all

If you're not using the QuadraBus for anything, you could
even pull it, and put the USB2 card in its place.

Paul

Could the Lucent be my 4 port hub which is mounted on desk, and connected in
back of Pc via usb port ? this is shown as a 1.1 on unit ?

 

[Paul]

Could the Lucent be my 4 port hub which is mounted on desk, and connected in
back of Pc via usb port ? this is shown as a 1.1 on unit ?

The quickest way to verify what chip is on your current add-in
card, is to pull the side off the computer and look.

*******

If you want to play around some more, try Everest (free edition).
Look in the "Devices : PCI devices" section, and see what is listed there.

http://majorgeeks.com/download4181.html

I don't know of any software tools, that make it particularly
easy to verify what hardware is inside the computer. Virtually
all of them require interpretation.

To give an example, I have a couple PCI cards installed right now.
This is what Everest reports.

Device Properties:
Device Description C-Media CMI8738/C3DX Audio Device
Bus Type PCI
Bus / Device / Function 3 / 7 / 0
Device ID 13F6-0111
Subsystem ID 13F6-0111
Device Class 0401 (Audio Device)
Revision 10
Fast Back-to-Back Transactions Not Supported

Device Properties:
Device Description Promise PDC20269 Ultra133 TX2 Bus Master IDE Controller
Bus Type PCI
Bus / Device / Function 3 / 6 / 0
Device ID 105A-4D69
Subsystem ID 105A-4D68
Device Class 0180 (Mass Storage Controller)
Revision 02
Fast Back-to-Back Transactions Not Supported

If you look at the Bus / Device / Function, you can tell they're
on the same bus segment.

My AGP video card is on a different bus segment. And that bus segment is AGP.
The bus number is one, in this case.

Device Properties:
Device Description ATI Radeon 9800 Pro Video Adapter
Bus Type AGP 8x
Bus / Device / Function 1 / 0 / 0
Device ID 1002-4E48
Subsystem ID 1002-0002
Device Class 0300 (VGA Display Controller)
Revision 00
Fast Back-to-Back Transactions Supported, Disabled

So Everest can give you a pile of stuff to look at. If you use the
"Report Wizard", you can create reams of data for examination with
a text editor.

And if Everest can't identify a piece of hardware, you can use the
Device ID field and then look up the device in question here. I picked
a couple of lines out of the file, which correspond to my sound card.
You can see how the Everest value of 13F6-0111, looks in this file.
The first chunk of digits is the VID or Vendor ID. The second set
is the PID or Product ID. This is how I might figure out I need
a CM8738 driver.

http://pciids.sourceforge.net/pci.ids

13f6 C-Media Electronics Inc
0111 CM8738

Paul