Epson Stylus Photo R1800

[medico]

Hi group,
Just picked up a second hand R1800, with a new CIS pigment inks system.

However I am finding that the prints are grainy and lacklustre when printed
on the R1800, there is no trace of grain in Photoshop, and the same pics
printed on my R200 also using a CIS system are perfect. I appreciate that
the inks are of a different type on these machines but surely the output
should be someway compatible.

Is it possible that I am missing a setting somewhere, the prints on both
machines were printed at A4 with a 400dpi setting.

Thanks in advance to all those that take the time to reply.


David

 

[Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!)]

Hi group,
Just picked up a second hand R1800, with a new CIS pigment inks system.

However I am finding that the prints are grainy and lacklustre when printed
on the R1800, there is no trace of grain in Photoshop, and the same pics
printed on my R200 also using a CIS system are perfect. I appreciate that
the inks are of a different type on these machines but surely the output
should be someway compatible.

Is it possible that I am missing a setting somewhere, the prints on both
machines were printed at A4 with a 400dpi setting.

What paper and are you using the proper ICC profile for the paper/ink
combination in either PS or the Epson driver, but not both.

 

[measekite]

Hi group,
Just picked up a second hand R1800, with a new CIS pigment inks system.

However I am finding that the prints are grainy and lacklustre when printed
on the R1800,

That is because you are not using Epson Factory ink. The relabeler that
sourced the ink is the problem and they will not tell you who the
formualtor is. You may wind up buying the same thing from someone else.

Get a set of new R1800 Epson factor carts and purge the system. I know
that uses a lot of good ink. Then print and it will probably be OK.

there is no trace of grain in Photoshop, and the same pics
printed on my R200 also using a CIS system are perfect. I appreciate that
the inks are of a different type on these machines

Like I said when you deal with a relabeler you never know what you are
getting. There is no consistency.

 

[Jan Alter]

What kind of paper are you using with the R1800 ?
You will unquestionably have to do some experimentation to figure out the
best settings for the printer. Also it wouldn't be a bad idea to get in
touch with the previous owner just to gleen some information that was used
for the particular inks that were used, or get in touch with the ink company
to see if there were any different profiles being used for printing
different than Epson ink.
I have an R1800 using ink from inksupply.com that gives beautiful output.
Print output is similar to Epson ink so it's not a chore to follow the same
settings, however, because I haven't calibrated my monitor to WYSIWYG
settings I have to adjust output brightness to allow for an adjusted print.

 

[medico]

Hi Guys and of course measkite.

Thanks for the input I think I have it problem tracked. It appears to be the
paper, I tried some different paper today and the graininess has gone.
I was using cheapo Lidl paper, funnily enough it is great in my R200 with
the CIS, couldn't fault it at all. Yet with the pigment inks in the R1800 it
must be causing some form of curdling in the paper.

So I switched over to the Fuji paper and all is fine other than the colour
profile which I now have to sort.
Anyone any tips on profiling?

Thanks again to all for the helpful advice (except measkite)

David

 

[Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!)]

So I switched over to the Fuji paper and all is fine other than the colour
profile which I now have to sort.
Anyone any tips on profiling?

FWIW, many of us R800/1800 users have gotten quite good results with
Kirkland Glossy Photo Paper obtained from Costso. This paper was
manufactured in Switzerland and rumored to be made by Ilford. In fact I use
an Ilford profile with this paper since I use Epson inks. The first place
to look for a profile is with your ink supplier, since you are not using
Epson inks. Other's have recommended Cathy's Profiles for $25 a shot, iirc.

 

[measekite]

Hi Guys and of course measkite.

Thanks for the input I think I have it problem tracked. It appears to be the
paper, I tried some different paper today and the graininess has gone.
I was using cheapo Lidl paper, funnily enough it is great in my R200 with
the CIS, couldn't fault it at all. Yet with the pigment inks in the R1800 it
must be causing some form of curdling in the paper.

Had you benn following the recommendations of Epson (GO ARGUE THAT ONE)
you would not have had this problem. It would be nice if Epson
developed an optional CIS inks system and sold their inks in larger
containers at a reasonable price. Then one could get all of the
beneifts of the Epson product one purchased.

 

[measekite]

FWIW, many of us R800/1800 users have gotten quite good results with
Kirkland Glossy Photo Paper obtained from Costso. This paper was
manufactured in Switzerland and rumored to be made by Ilford.

That is correct. For Glossy it is great. Epson matte is very good as
well along with Ilford Gallerie (Smooth for pigmented ink and Classic
for dye ink)

In fact I use
an Ilford profile with this paper since I use Epson inks. The first place
to look for a profile is with your ink supplier, since you are not using
Epson inks. Other's have recommended Cathy's Profiles for $25 a shot, iirc.

Now that is impossible. If you do not know the formulator of the ink
then you cannot find an appropriate profile and the relabeler will not
tell you.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Hi David,

I am somewhat confused by your comment regarding 400 dpi. Epson
printers do not provide 400 dpi. They offer resolutions like 360, 720,
1440, 2880, and so on. In fact, the R1800 may only offer good, better,
best, photo, depending upon the driver. Do you mean that you used 400
dpi as the input file at full size?

Also, what paper are you using, and do you know which brand of ink you
are using?

How does the nozzle test look?

Also, CIS systems can cause ink starvation if the ink bottles are
maintained at the wrong height. Do you know the brand of CIS you are using?

In general, people have been very pleased with the output from a R1800
printer. The loss of brilliance pigment inks can sometimes cause was
dealt with by adding the extra colors (red and blue) and the ultragloss
inks and coatings.

More information might help us, if you can provide it.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

I'm pleased you found an answer to the problem. I want to explain a bit
about the differences between dye and pigment inks in terms of how they
respond to paper surfaces.

Dye inks penetrate the surface of inkjet papers. Epson printers in
general use a microporous paper that had a surface with very small holes
in it, and a ceramic clay lower layer into which the ink dyes are
locked. SOme are so well designed as to make the image waterproof once
dry, even though the inks themselves are not waterproof.

While dyes are made up of molecules as their largest components, pigment
inks are made up of (in relative terms) "Chunks" of solid matter
suspended in liquid. Dyes are like dissolving sugar or perhaps steeping
tea in water. Pigment is like stirring mud into water. Eventually the
larger particles of mud will settle out, and they can be filtered from
the liquid with a fine enough filter. Not so easy to do with a dye
colorant.

As such the pigment particles sit on top of the paper surface and are
adhered by an adhesive, usually a resin of some sort. The paper surface
may also help by its design. Some microporous papers can either accept
the particles, or will do OK with the pigment particles on top of it.

Swellable polymer papers require the ink to wet and penetrate the
surface, which then traps the colorant into the very long stringy
polymer molecules as it dries. This does often improve color
permanence, but some inks don't do will with this type of paper. Water
or glycol percentages in the ink will influence how well a certain ink
will respond to swellable polymer papers, as well as which polymers are
used. Pigment particles are too large for them to penetrate the polymer,
so they may sit on top. reticulate ("curdle") or otherwise respond.
Further issues may be due to the electron charge of the ink versus
paper, and even the pH (acidity or alkalinity) of the ink and paper
combination.

Ink and paper combinations are complex. Color shifts can occur with
some combinations. Dot gain, the amount a dot increases in size once it
touches the surface, will also alter the result. This is why paper
choice and profiles are important in determining the result you will
receive.

In general, when you find a very contrary result to what others are
experiencing with a printer model, if it isn't a mechanical problem
(like a clogged head, etc) look for ink and paper combination issues.

 

[medico]

Hi Art,
Thanks for the informative info on inks and papers which basically confirms
my findings.

Regarding the 400dpi, that was the photoshop resolution that I was using for
testing the printer.

The first batch of paper was Unicorn, made in Switzerland and retailed by
Lidl, a paper that I found excellent in the Epson R200 using dye inks of
either Epson variety or the CIS system who's manufacturer is a little less
clear. This Unicorn paper is however totally useless in the R1800 using the
pigment inks.

I have now switched to my other paper Fujifilm multi glossy
http://www.fujifilm.co.uk/digital/multijet/index.php?ref=multijet&flash=9

The CIS system for the R1800 was purchased online from Inkjet Revolution

Nozzle test looks good, and the ink bottles are level with the printer, as
described in the set up instructions, and I have disabled the printer
enhancement and have set the colour settings to "let photoshop determine
the colours"

The prints are now a great deal more acceptable.

Thanks again for the assistance

David

 

[Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!)]

Now that is impossible. If you do not know the formulator of the ink
then you cannot find an appropriate profile and the relabeler will not
tell you.

Sure one can dipshit. Every hear of how a spectrophotometer is used to read
a print of a specified target on a given paper? Such as the ones from
Colorvision, Getrag, etc. Quit spewing your uninformed garbage.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Glad to hear it is worked out.

Inks and papers need to be properly matched for the proper result. As
you have discovered, some inks are not compatible with some inkjet papers.

Art