A question for the experts on Inks, CIS and CFS

[Jeff]

Hi,

i have 4 printers

Lexmark x730 using their all in one # 1 cartridge

Epson Stlus Color 880
Epson C 80
Epson r1800

All I know is the Lexmark printer which was $20 at Walmart prodeuces the
glossiest and most gorgeous prints.

Is that ink Dye based or Pigment based.?

I also know I refilled my stylus 880 with 99 cent store ink and the results
were specatcular, was the 99 cent store ink dye based?

Can i choose dye or pigment based inks in a CIS system?

Is it dye based inks that give that glossy saturated look?

If Epson's ITC action means third parry CIS cannot be bought here in the
USA, can I purchjase those things overseas?

Will Canon be affected too?

Can a canaon produce those prints such as the lexmark that are saturated and
glossy?

Thanks for any time in answering these questions

Jeff

 

[Jan Alter]

Hi,

i have 4 printers

Lexmark x730 using their all in one # 1 cartridge

Epson Stlus Color 880
Epson C 80
Epson r1800

All I know is the Lexmark printer which was $20 at Walmart prodeuces the
glossiest and most gorgeous prints.

Is that ink Dye based or Pigment based.?

I also know I refilled my stylus 880 with 99 cent store ink and the
results were specatcular, was the 99 cent store ink dye based?

Can i choose dye or pigment based inks in a CIS system?

Is it dye based inks that give that glossy saturated look?

If Epson's ITC action means third parry CIS cannot be bought here in the
USA, can I purchjase those things overseas?

Will Canon be affected too?

Can a canaon produce those prints such as the lexmark that are saturated
and glossy?

Thanks for any time in answering these questions

Jeff

I can't comment to what kind of ink is in the Lexmark, but the 880 uses
dye base ink and the printhead is specifically made to use that kind of ink
only from what I've seen. According to the following article the C80 was the
first Epson to use pigmented ink.
http://www.inkcityusa.com/epson_durabrite_inks.htm .
CIS systems can use both kinds of ink, but the highest consideration is
to what the printhead on the printer is capable of using in the first place.
From what I gather, a printer that can use pigmented ink can readily use dye
base ink, but not necessarily the other way around.

Your question about the Epson suit and the ITC is a very serious question
for anyone using Epson aftermarket imported cartridges. If the ITC
(International Trade Commision ) allows the Epson third party cartridge suit
to go into law it apparently means an interim tariff of $13.60 for each
third party cartridge that gets sold in the U.S. from a foreign country and
is used for a large number of Epson printers, and possbily outlawing them
entirely from being sold in this country if the President signs an order
from the ITC sometime in the next two months. You can read about it from
this link: http://itc.epson.com/itc.html .

I'm not aware of a Canon suit at this point, but if the Epson third party
cartridge embargo comes about I would imagine that Canon's lawyers would be
waiting in the next room. For myself, I've already written to my state
senators and Attorney General about the monopolistic tactics being used by
Epson. If this ITC deal goes into law it essentially eliminates the option
of using cheap ink to run Epson printers and the opportunity to recycle
cartridges; adding more plastic to the landfills, wasted energy and
resources, and millions of dollars overspent for Epson overpriced ink.

 

[Jeff]

Your question about the Epson suit and the ITC is a very serious
question for anyone using Epson aftermarket imported cartridges. If the
ITC (International Trade Commision ) allows the Epson third party
cartridge suit to go into law it apparently means an interim tariff of
$13.60 for each third party cartridge that gets sold in the U.S. from a
foreign country and is used for a large number of Epson printers, and
possbily outlawing them entirely from being sold in this country if the
President signs an order from the ITC sometime in the next two months.
You can read about it from this link: http://itc.epson.com/itc.html .

So does this mean before it's possibly signed off bty the President, one can
still purchase these items legally?

 

[measekite]

Hi,

i have 4 printers

Lexmark x730 using their all in one # 1 cartridge

Epson Stlus Color 880
Epson C 80
Epson r1800

All I know is the Lexmark printer which was $20 at Walmart prodeuces
the glossiest and most gorgeous prints.

Lexmark ink jet printers are the garbage of the garbage world.

Is that ink Dye based or Pigment based.?

I also know I refilled my stylus 880 with 99 cent store ink and the
results were specatcular,

Now that is why you are high on Lexmark.

was the 99 cent store ink dye based?

Can i choose dye or pigment based inks in a CIS system?

Is it dye based inks that give that glossy saturated look?

It is the paper

If Epson's ITC action means third parry CIS cannot be bought here in
the USA, can I purchjase those things overseas?

Take a trip to China. I am sure you can find anything there.

Will Canon be affected too?

Can a canaon produce those prints such as the lexmark that are
saturated and glossy?

Canon can never produce anything like the Lexmark unless you use crappy
non OEM ink.

 

[measekite]

Jan Alter wrote:

"Jeff" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...



Hi, i have 4 printers Lexmark x730 using their all in one # 1 cartridge Epson Stlus Color 880 Epson C 80 Epson r1800 All I know is the Lexmark printer which was $20 at Walmart prodeuces the glossiest and most gorgeous prints. Is that ink Dye based or Pigment based.? I also know I refilled my stylus 880 with 99 cent store ink and the results were specatcular, was the 99 cent store ink dye based? Can i choose dye or pigment based inks in a CIS system? Is it dye based inks that give that glossy saturated look? If Epson's ITC action means third parry CIS cannot be bought here in the USA, can I purchjase those things overseas? Will Canon be affected too? Can a canaon produce those prints such as the lexmark that are saturated and glossy? Thanks for any time in answering these questions Jeff



I can't comment to what kind of ink is in the Lexmark, but the 880 uses dye base ink and the printhead is specifically made to use that kind of ink only from what I've seen. According to the following article the C80 was the first Epson to use pigmented ink. http://www.inkcityusa.com/epson_durabrite_inks.htm . CIS systems can use both kinds of ink, but the highest consideration is to what the printhead on the printer is capable of using in the first place. From what I gather, a printer that can use pigmented ink can readily use dye base ink, but not necessarily the other way around.


Golly, thanks for the great news.


Your question about the Epson suit and the ITC is a very serious question for anyone using Epson aftermarket imported cartridges. If the ITC (International Trade Commision ) allows the Epson third party cartridge suit to go into law it apparently means an interim tariff of $13.60 for each third party cartridge that gets sold in the U.S. from a foreign country and is used for a large number of Epson printers, and possbily outlawing them entirely from being sold in this country if the President signs an order from the ITC sometime in the next two months. You can read about it from this link: http://itc.epson.com/itc.html . I'm not aware of a Canon suit at this point, but if the Epson third party cartridge embargo comes about I would imagine that Canon's lawyers would be waiting in the next room.

As they should be.


For myself, I've already written to my state senators and Attorney General about the monopolistic tactics being used by Epson. If this ITC deal goes into law it essentially eliminates the option of using cheap ink to run Epson printers and the opportunity to recycle cartridges; adding more plastic to the landfills, wasted energy and resources, and millions of dollars overspent for Epson overpriced ink.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Look for answers intermingled in your message:

Hi,

i have 4 printers

Lexmark x730 using their all in one # 1 cartridge

Epson Stlus Color 880
Epson C 80
Epson r1800

All I know is the Lexmark printer which was $20 at Walmart prodeuces the
glossiest and most gorgeous prints.

Is that ink Dye based or Pigment based.?

Lexmark usually has dye color inks and sometimes black pigment ink.

I also know I refilled my stylus 880 with 99 cent store ink and the
results were specatcular, was the 99 cent store ink dye based?

The original OEM inks from Epson for the 880 are dye, and I would wager
so are the 99 cent ones.

Can i choose dye or pigment based inks in a CIS system?

In most cases, yes, with Epson printers, since the heads are tolerant of
both. You may experience more clogging with pigment 3rd party inks.

Is it dye based inks that give that glossy saturated look?

Dye inks with a glossy paper usually provide the most saturated glossy
look. However, you mention you use an R1800, and the inks that come
with it are Ultrachrome Gloss, which are pigment with extra gloss
components in them. Also, the R1800 has a gloss optimizer which is just
a clear gloss coating that can be added on top of the inks to further
even out the gloss.

If Epson's ITC action means third parry CIS cannot be bought here in the
USA, can I purchjase those things overseas?

Who knows for now? Some manufacturers like HP have regionalized their
printers and cartridges. The ITC rulings aren't finalized either.
Also, it is not even clear the current issues directly will involve CIS
cartridge systems.

Will Canon be affected too?

Only if they choose to be. As it is, if I understand the current
situation with the current crop of Canon printers, the cartridge chip is
very difficult to reset, but this is probably less of an issue for those
who would use a CIS or is diligent with refilling before the cartridges
run dry. Canon could make similar claims regarding patents as Epson,
and they may be upheld with the ITC. However, this matter is now
spreading to others who may wish to slow the process or derail the
protections Epson is asking for.

Can a canaon produce those prints such as the lexmark that are saturated
and glossy?

I don't see why not, with the dye inks. However, be aware that even the
Chromalife inks do not have great fade resistance. In general, most dye
inks currently on the market aren't great in this area.

Thanks for any time in answering these questions

Hope they are useful.


Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

The only area I want to place a few extra comments about is the matter
of dye versus pigment inks in Epson printers.

Quality pigment inks should be able to work well with Epson dye ink
printers, and many people have done so, however, the problem is mainly
one of maintenance. The native pigment ink printers can have somewhat
different firmware which offers more cleaning cycles more often, so if
you use a pigment ink in a dye printer, you may need to use more
cleaning cycles more regularly to maintain the heads. The pigment inks
are slightly more abrasive and may wear out the heads slightly more rapidly.

Art

 

[Yianni]

Lexmark x730 using their all in one # 1 cartridge

Epson Stlus Color 880
Epson C 80
Epson r1800

The first two printers use dye inks, the two last printers pigment inks.

I also know I refilled my stylus 880 with 99 cent store ink and the
results were specatcular, was the 99 cent store ink dye based?

99,9% dye inks.

Can i choose dye or pigment based inks in a CIS system?
Yes.


Is it dye based inks that give that glossy saturated look?

Dye ink gives more saturated look. On the other hand depends on the driver.
Some printers choose to increase saturation for vivid colors. That's why you
get good results from a low priced printer (even if the colors are not
correct). You can also edit photos to get vivid colors for the other
printers too. Or changing some options from the driver.
Try using the vivid colors from the Epson driver on the 880 and you will get
better results.

Can a canaon produce those prints such as the lexmark that are saturated
and glossy?

Canon driver also automaticaly enchances colors.

 

[Jeff]

Thank you for the wonderful replies, I've learned ALOT.

Just a few more questions.


Is it a good idea to stock up on cartridges from ink supply houses in
anticipation of the ITC action? or, have they already stopped selling the
aftermarket replicas.


I have been using EPSON durabright inks on my c80, to switch to dye based,
do i have to take out ALL ofthe cartridges in there?

Are ALL aftermarket Epson cartridges Spongeless?

And, are ALL genuine epson cartridges made with sponges in them.

If one was to go into circuit city or best buy and by a wide format printer
( 13 x 19) or even a good 8.5 x 11 which ones currently new would you
recommend as being future proof in that they are the easist and simplest to
refill?

Lastly, if the ITC ruling is signed off by the President will CIS be
impossible to get?

And if it's signed off on can Aftermarket cartridges simply be oprdered from
overseas vendors?

i guess the question really is for those of us that want to be Heavy
printers and consume huge amounts of ink, will there contine to be ways to
do this, albeit not dosmetically but still allow us our hobby or passion?

Thanks

jeff

 

[Yianni]

Is it a good idea to stock up on cartridges from ink supply houses in

anticipation of the ITC action? or, have they already stopped selling the
aftermarket replicas.

As a retail customer, don't care for this action at all. All aftermarket
inks (all variations, including cis) will continue be sold. This action
focuses other aspects in the ink industry (I can't explain here, and I don't
know either all the story). One of the aspect is the price. Inks can't be
sold at extremely low prices. Other aspect is the patents. E.g. HP also
involves in the same strategy
http://www.usitc.gov/ext_relations/news_release/2006/er0831dd2.htm

Are ALL aftermarket Epson cartridges Spongeless?

As I know, most of the aftermarket epson cartridges are with sponges. The
spongeless are the exception.

And, are ALL genuine epson cartridges made with sponges in them.

No. 880's are with sponges, 80's and 1800's are spongeless.

Lastly, if the ITC ruling is signed off by the President will CIS be
impossible to get?
And if it's signed off on can Aftermarket cartridges simply be oprdered
from overseas vendors?

I replied in the first question. Don't bother. It won't affect retail
customers at all, and almost none the small/medium stores.

 

[ato_zee]

OEM cartridges often have a "Use By" data. They can be
used well after that, but don't last forever, even in the seale pack.
Remember it's best to store them upright as defined as their
orientation in the printer. If stored on their side, or worse
upside down, nozzle up, you will probably have air migrating
to round the nozzles, and subsequent air lock problems.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Thank you for the wonderful replies, I've learned ALOT.

Just a few more questions.


Is it a good idea to stock up on cartridges from ink supply houses in
anticipation of the ITC action? or, have they already stopped selling
the aftermarket replicas.

Dye inks are often good for years past their expiration dates, but
pigment inks because they use solid colorants and resins can denature
and otherwise clot and alter chemically, and probably won't last long
beyond their expiration date.

However, you may wish to consider stocking up on empty refillable
cartridges, as these too may soon disappear. Then you can buy ink as
you need it. Ink will not be restricted by the ITC rulings.

I have been using EPSON durabright inks on my c80, to switch to dye
based, do i have to take out ALL ofthe cartridges in there?

Probably best to do so for a number of reasons.

1) the inks may not be compatible, although they do use similar bases

2) the colors will probably not match, so it may be better to move all
at once and make the appropriate adjustments in the color management all
at once, or you may be chasing after stable color balance as each color
is replaced.

3) I would go one step further and try to flush the old ink out of the
system using cleaning cartridges or make your own by refilling with a
cleaning fluid (do not use pressurized liquids through the heads as it
may damage them).

Are ALL aftermarket Epson cartridges Spongeless?

No, it depends upon the model printer you are trying to refill, and even
then some 3rd party inks cartridges could be designed using older
methods (with "sponges") because they are cheaper to design. The
spongeless cartridges require much more sophisticated ink regulation
systems, and more control over air, which pigment inks require to
prevent oxidation of the ink.

And, are ALL genuine epson cartridges made with sponges in them.

No, all Epson cartridges for current printers (with individual color ink
cartridges) are spongeless. Only the older ganged color units had
sponges or batting in them.

If one was to go into circuit city or best buy and by a wide format
printer ( 13 x 19) or even a good 8.5 x 11 which ones currently new
would you recommend as being future proof in that they are the easist
and simplest to refill?

Probably Canon, but you have to make sure the cartridges do not run out
of ink, since you need to turn the ink monitoring levels off, and the
head will fail if the printer is run without ink in any cartridges.

Lastly, if the ITC ruling is signed off by the President will CIS be
impossible to get?

Hard to say, right now the ITC ruling doesn't directly speak to CIS,
however, it may just be a matter of time before patent issues bring
these to a halt as well.

And if it's signed off on can Aftermarket cartridges simply be oprdered
from overseas vendors?

It is unknown if other markets will follow or if importation will be
allowed into the US. Some manufacturers are now making their cartridge
ink monitor chips regional so they will only work in printers from the
same country region.

i guess the question really is for those of us that want to be Heavy
printers and consume huge amounts of ink, will there contine to be ways
to do this, albeit not dosmetically but still allow us our hobby or
passion?

This is a newly charted process, and how it comes down is hard to know.
There will probably be some "tests" by 3rd party manufacturers and
attempts will likely be made to confound the legislation should it be
signed.


Art

 

[measekite]

Dye inks are often good for years past their expiration dates, Only OEM
but pigment inks because they use solid colorants and resins can
denature and otherwise clot and alter chemically, and probably won't
last long beyond their expiration date. OEM longer than the junk.

However, you may wish to consider stocking up on empty refillable
cartridges, That is a good thing.
as these too may soon disappear. Then you can buy ink as you need
it. Ink will not be restricted by the ITC rulings.

He is not restricted now if he wants to use the best.

Probably best to do so for a number of reasons.

1) the inks may not be compatible, although they do use similar bases

2) the colors will probably not match, so it may be better to move all
at once and make the appropriate adjustments in the color management
all at once, or you may be chasing after stable color balance as each
color is replaced.

3) I would go one step further and try to flush the old ink out of the
system using cleaning cartridges or make your own by refilling with a
cleaning fluid (do not use pressurized liquids through the heads as it
may damage them).

They are all junk.

 

[Jim Ford]

mouseshite wrote:

His usual risible drivel. What a clown!

Jim Ford

 

[Frank]

measekite wrote:


-----delusional lying bullshit---

Hey meashershithead...when are you going to start telling the truth?
You don't know anything at all about printers, cameras, paper or life
for that matter.
Frank