eBay dumps microsoft for java to achieve 1 BILLION page views a day

[Ron Bullman]

asj,

Case studies are for learning, not for making comparisons.

Inorder to properly compare you need to have two (or more) implementations,
where the entities to be compared are known and measurable. This works well
for tangible artifacts, for example you measure the max speed of car A and
car B. If you make your measurement properly and such a way that somebody
else can repeat them, you could state that car B is faster/ slower than car
A.

However software systems and any system including intangible atrifacts do
have different nature. For example a reasonable complicated software product
is developed by groups A and B. A is developed with Java and EJB and B is
developed with .NET and C#. So you like to compare whether A or B is better.
You run them in similar machines and the output is similar and you find that
product A runs 10% faster than product B. Can you draw the conclusion that
EJB and Java is better than .NET and #C? Or could it be that the group B had
better developers than group A?

Inorder to find out whether it depends on tools or developers you need to
make several experiments. AFAIK nobody has ever made any such experiments.

Ofcourse you are entitled to your opinions, but that's what they are, just
your opinions (or somebody elses)!


Ron

 

[asj]

awhile back, eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows
architecture on the backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why their
java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the funny
thing was eBay was one of the major case studies for .NET at the
beginning, when there was still some hype about it.

interesting post about a few java case studies:
http://weblogs.java.net/pub/wlg/268

"I love looking through case studies. They can teach you so much about
what to do, what not to do, what is in vogue, etc. All those useful
design patterns came from analyzing lots of case studies and seeing what
worked; and sometimes, more importantly, what didn't work."

"So this year I decided to start listing case studies when I find them.
And a great place to start is JavaOne, where lots of the really big case
studies get presented. So here they are. The highlights for me: eBay
architected for 1 billion page views a day; The Brazilian National
Health handling 100 million outpatient procedues a month; 24 million
Java Cards used by Taiwan Health Insurance; Capital One Financial
handling 80 million transactions each month."

for similar J2ME stats, go to:
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/stats.htm
http://www.blueboard.com/j2me/why.htm

 

[Grant Wagner]

awhile back, eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows
architecture on the backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why their
java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the funny
thing was eBay was one of the major case studies for .NET at the
beginning, when there was still some hype about it.

interesting post about a few java case studies:
http://weblogs.java.net/pub/wlg/268

"I love looking through case studies. They can teach you so much about
what to do, what not to do, what is in vogue, etc. All those useful
design patterns came from analyzing lots of case studies and seeing what
worked; and sometimes, more importantly, what didn't work."

"So this year I decided to start listing case studies when I find them.
And a great place to start is JavaOne, where lots of the really big case
studies get presented. So here they are. The highlights for me: eBay
architected for 1 billion page views a day; The Brazilian National
Health handling 100 million outpatient procedues a month; 24 million
Java Cards used by Taiwan Health Insurance; Capital One Financial
handling 80 million transactions each month."

Of course, your implied conclusion is that these companies wouldn't be able
to handle the same traffic if they were using some other technology. Of
course, there is no evidence to back that conclusion, since these companies
are not using some other technology.

The only conclusion you can draw from the case studies cited is that they
are achieving the performance they are achieving with the technology they
are using. No more. No less.

Lots of similar information can be found <url:
http://www.microsoft.com/net/casestudies/ />, but again, all those case
studies show is the performance gained and costs reduced using the
technology choosen, it says nothing about what the numbers would look like
if the companies involved had used some other technology.

"Monster runs primarily on ASP code and uses Alta Vista as the primary
search engine for both job seekers and recruiters. Typically the site
handles from 2 to 3 million unique users a day and serves between 40 and 45
million page views per day, averaging about 200 megabits of traffic per
second in prime time—between 11 A.M. to about 4 P.M. Eastern time. However,
Monster has tracked a peak of about 10,000 Web flows—Web pages processed—per
second."

The above is completely meaningless (are are any Java case study performance
numbers), since they might be able to serve the same number of pages
processed using PHP, ColdFusion, or Java, we simply do not know, because
they do not use the other technologies.

As for the lack of hype, it may have quieted, but it appears there are lots
of companies implementing the technology. And ultimately, it's not the noise
a technology makes in trade magazines, it's who uses it, and for what. It
seems as if companies have evaluated the choices and are getting on with the
business of implementing the best technology for their environment.

 

[paul cooke]

Of course, your implied conclusion is that these companies wouldn't be
able to handle the same traffic if they were using some other
technology. Of course, there is no evidence to back that conclusion,
since these companies are not using some other technology.

The only conclusion you can draw from the case studies cited is that
they are achieving the performance they are achieving with the
technology they are using. No more. No less.

Lots of similar information can be found <url:
http://www.microsoft.com/net/casestudies/ />, but again, all those case
studies show is the performance gained and costs reduced using the
technology choosen, it says nothing about what the numbers would look
like if the companies involved had used some other technology.

"Monster runs primarily on ASP code and uses Alta Vista as the primary
search engine for both job seekers and recruiters. Typically the site
handles from 2 to 3 million unique users a day and serves between 40 and
45 million page views per day, averaging about 200 megabits of traffic
per second in prime time—between 11 A.M. to about 4 P.M. Eastern time.
However, Monster has tracked a peak of about 10,000 Web flows—Web pages
processed—per second."

The above is completely meaningless (are are any Java case study
performance numbers), since they might be able to serve the same number
of pages processed using PHP, ColdFusion, or Java, we simply do not
know, because they do not use the other technologies.

As for the lack of hype, it may have quieted, but it appears there are
lots of companies implementing the technology. And ultimately, it's not
the noise a technology makes in trade magazines, it's who uses it, and
for what. It seems as if companies have evaluated the choices and are
getting on with the business of implementing the best technology for
their environment.

you're having a hard job convincing us there... The big fact, which you
can't ignore, is that they're not using .NET anymore...

Gosh that must have been an expensive thing for them to have done... all
that effort to go the 1 Redmond Way... so much for your much vaunted .NET
technology... tossed out onto the verge of the Information Superhighway
like yesterday's rubbish...

Had to reboot your ms-windows computer yet today???

 

[asj]

First of all, I'm not sure they ever used .NET, I believe the switch was made
prior the implementation of any .NET solutions. Even if they had a fully
functioning .NET site and swapped it out for a Java solution, I'd be
interested to see sources that indicate it was done because .NET could not
handle the load.

eBay had been implementing a lot of the parts of .net, including
passport when this happened. they also had been heavily into windows,
which is why ballmer had been so angry when this happened. then i
believe IBM's websphere beat out both microsoft and sun after a series
of tests eBay did.

it sure screwed microsoft though, since eBay was trumpeted very VERY
loudly as the biggest backer of microsoft's .net...

there are of course, other notable examples of companies switching to
j2ee AFTER using .NET extensively, one recent example i pointed out was
Cerner:
http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/02/06/HNibmcerner2_1.html

 

[asj]

thanks, but did i claim otherwise?
i just noted how it was funny that eBay was the premier case study for
trumpeting .net awhile back, and now is a case study for java's J2EE.

 

[asj]

yeah, my poor choice of words in the front paragraph (although eBay did
implement passport) ....

however, eBay still DUMPED .net in favor of J2EE, and this made ballmer
even crazier since eBay was already heavily into windows on the front
end and was implementing .NET's Passport (aka, "give your ultimate
password to us and we'll take good care of it - Windows
Security"...bwahahahaha) at the time....in addition, it made microsoft
eat its own words since eBay was HEAVILY trumpeted as the premier win
for .NET....

1 BILLION page-views...wow.

i wonder how google (which runs on Linux clusters) compares to
this...must be even more....

 

[Bo Persson]

there are of course, other notable examples of companies switching to
j2ee AFTER using .NET extensively, one recent example i pointed out was
Cerner:
http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/02/06/HNibmcerner2_1.html

But this is not about Java at all, IBM is selling WebSphere and DB2 as
*its* solution. If you choose that, you then *have* to use Java,
because that is IBM's only alternative.

Where I work we are also rewriting C++ code to Java, because we can
then run WebSphere and DB on the mainframe. It is not a question of
whether Java is better, it's a question of what is available for the
platform - DB2 and WebSphere.


Bo Persson
(e-mail address removed)

 

[asj]

welcome to the world of multiple vendors and CHOICE!
each vendor sells its own solution set, but the intersecting point is,
guess what? java.

websphere IS a J2EE app server, which means everytime IBM sells another
websphere solution, that's more jobs for java developers and better
penetration of java.

a quote from that:
"Cerner now plans to standardize a new set of applications on not just
WebSphere, but also on J2EE Web services. The company will also use
IBM's WebSphere Studio Application Developer as its development
environment. This makes it easier for a wide range of programmers to
develop in Java. IBM plans to create closer working ties between
Cerner's development organizations and its own WebSphere Studio product
management team."

and why abandon .NET? because they wanted a cross-platform, secure,
reliable, and open technology.....

"Cerner did a lot of deep analysis on how to make their developers more
productive and they found WebSphere Studio to be more productive in
which to build applications. They told us they also needed a more open,
cross-platform architecture, and they felt .Net would not support the
heterogeneous needs of their customers," said Scott Hebner, IBM's vice
president in charge of marketing for WebSphere in Somers, N.Y.

"Hebner added that Cerner preferred WebSphere's ability to cross
integrate and unify patient care information, as well as the Web
application servers' ability to scale."

"They did not feel the thick client in .Net architecture could scale
with the level of security and reliability that WebSphere could
produce,'' Hebner said.

 

[Bo Persson]

welcome to the world of multiple vendors and CHOICE!
each vendor sells its own solution set, but the intersecting point is,
guess what? java.

Or IBM!

websphere IS a J2EE app server, which means everytime IBM sells another
websphere solution, that's more jobs for java developers and better
penetration of java.
Agree.

a quote from that:
"Cerner now plans to standardize a new set of applications on not just
WebSphere, but also on J2EE Web services. The company will also use
IBM's WebSphere Studio Application Developer as its development
environment. This makes it easier for a wide range of programmers to
develop in Java. IBM plans to create closer working ties between
Cerner's development organizations and its own WebSphere Studio product
management team."

Directly from IBM's data sheet?

and why abandon .NET? because they wanted a cross-platform, secure,
reliable, and open technology.....

Or, because they wanted IBM WebSphere and DB2?

"Cerner did a lot of deep analysis on how to make their developers more
productive and they found WebSphere Studio to be more productive in
which to build applications. They told us they also needed a more open,
cross-platform architecture, and they felt .Net would not support the
heterogeneous needs of their customers," said Scott Hebner, IBM's vice
president in charge of marketing for WebSphere in Somers, N.Y.

We also did a deep analysis of the platforms used, and found that
running DB2 on the mainframe (which we do anyway, since decades) and
the web on a PC server farm didn't make sense. When we now use IBM
WebSpere, we can scrap the server racks and the overloaded backbone
net and run it all on a single platform.

We are not the least interested in cross-platform applications, we run
DB2 on mainframes. Everything else has to adapt to that, *even* if it
means rewriting the web apps in Java. We didn't choose Java, we were
forced to use it.

"Hebner added that Cerner preferred WebSphere's ability to cross
integrate and unify patient care information, as well as the Web
application servers' ability to scale."

Yes, so they can also move to an IBM eBusiness Server zSeries,
formerly known as S/390 mainframe. Great scaling - even with Java.

"They did not feel the thick client in .Net architecture could scale
with the level of security and reliability that WebSphere could
produce,'' Hebner said.

Ok, so I wouldn't give that much for MS security either.

Still, I insist that this doesn't tell anything about Java vs .NET,
but about the difference between using SQL Server on PC class servers
and using DB2 on big iron from IBM. Java is not the reason for a
change, but an effect of it.


Bo Persson
(e-mail address removed)

 

[James A. Robertson]

The interesting part is - they aren't using Sun hardware. So the
revenue to Sun for this choice is about zip.

yeah, my poor choice of words in the front paragraph (although eBay did
implement passport) ....

however, eBay still DUMPED .net in favor of J2EE, and this made ballmer
even crazier since eBay was already heavily into windows on the front
end and was implementing .NET's Passport (aka, "give your ultimate
password to us and we'll take good care of it - Windows
Security"...bwahahahaha) at the time....in addition, it made microsoft
eat its own words since eBay was HEAVILY trumpeted as the premier win
for .NET....

1 BILLION page-views...wow.

i wonder how google (which runs on Linux clusters) compares to
this...must be even more....

<Talk Small and Carry a Big Class Library>
James Robertson, Product Manager, Cincom Smalltalk
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/blog/blogView

 

[Roedy Green]

java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the funny
thing was eBay was one of the major case studies for .NET at the
beginning, when there was still some hype about it.

the ebay people know what they are doing. The UI is easy enough that
my sister in law is using it. I found it seemed to anticipate my
questions and needs. Given the hammering it gets, the response time is
remarkably good.

I doubt they would be flipping without doing some serious testing
first.

 

[asj]

The interesting part is - they aren't using Sun hardware. So the
revenue to Sun for this choice is about zip.

actually, i believe they are still using sun, but that might have
changed...who knows? and who cares?

they're running Java's J2EE (not c#, not smalltalk, not pigaboo), and
that's all i care about cause that's what affects me.

 

[T. Max Devlin]

In comp.os.linux.advocacy, I heard Erik Funkenbusch say:

Ebay has never run on .NET. I don't know where you get this information.

Perhaps it was a development project rather than their production systems that
was switched?

Ebay had originally planned to move to .NET back in early 2001, but ended
up not doing so after a bidding war with Sun and IBM.

Ah, yes. Quite like Microsoft trying several times and failing to change
hotmail over to Windows. Which you like to insist never happened, since they
never *really* tried, since every time they planned to do so they realized
before spending those millions that it would fail because Windows simply isn't
good enough.

You can read what happened here:

http://www.baselinemag.com/article2/0,3959,659060,00.asp

As such, Ebay never "switched" from anything Microsoft.

They switched their plans. The question is why; the answer is because .NET is
just more monopoly crapware.

 

[Dr Chaos]

awhile back, eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows
architecture on the backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why their
java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day!

Everybody thinks this is about technology first.

I actually bet it isn't.

Something as major as Ebay would inevitably involve a number of
nearly 'on-site' programmers from Microsoft or Sun and similar
consultants. They would become intimately familiar with the workings,
technology, and inevitably key trade secrets of the business.

Microsoft has a history of learning everything it can about
competitors' business even through development contacts, and
then later springing upon them a MSFT competitor developed
entirely in secret.

Only Microsoft, with its large capital and persistence and
distribution network via the desktop monopoly, could conceivably
challenge eBay.

eBay is the only really massively profitable revenue model in
computing today which isn't owned by Microsoft. I'm sure Gates &
Ballmer have thought heavily about how to get some of this money.

The strategic risk to eBay for getting involved with Microsoft is too
large. It's like contracting out U.S. JDAM manufacturing
to Chung King Metalworks of Beijing.


Google is probably a modestly profitable company but with insanely
good almost unique technology. They should never let a Microsoft
employee in the building.

 

[Mike]

The interesting part is - they aren't using Sun hardware. So the
revenue to Sun for this choice is about zip.

If they're not now, they certainly used to. It was quite public a few years
ago when Ebay was experiencing lots of downtime due to system crashes. Sun
blamed Ebay, and Ebay blamed Sun, and the crashes continued. The failures
were noted in at least two articles in Business Week.

-- Mike --

 

[Tom Shelton]

actually, i believe they are still using sun, but that might have
changed...who knows? and who cares?

they're running Java's J2EE (not c#, not smalltalk, not pigaboo), and
that's all i care about cause that's what affects me.

Netcraft says there running Windows NT 4 and IIS/4. Looking at some of
the search strings in queries, it looks like they are calling into ISAPI
extensions. Yet the home page says they are powered by IBM... Very
confusing.

Tom Shelton

 

[John]

awhile back, eBay decided to switch from a Microsoft/.NET/Windows
architecture on the backend to a J2EE one, which might explain why their
java backend will handle up to 1 BILLION page views a day! the funny
thing was eBay was one of the major case studies for .NET at the
beginning, when there was still some hype about it.

Um, they were never on .Net.

URL to case study, please?

 

[John]

you're having a hard job convincing us there... The big fact, which you
can't ignore, is that they're not using .NET anymore...

They never used .Net. Don't fall for the asj spin.

 

[John]

eBay had been implementing a lot of the parts of .net, including
passport when this happened. they also had been heavily into windows,
which is why ballmer had been so angry when this happened. then i
believe IBM's websphere beat out both microsoft and sun after a series
of tests eBay did.

URL to details of these implementations.......?