Does Windows XP Pro have a 3GB limit on RAM ?

S

ship

Hi

Is it true that WindowsXP Pro has a 3GB limit on addressable RAM
space?

We have a user who regularly uses spreadsheets of 1.5 to 2+GB in size
(on the hard disk).
- How much RAM should we give her?
- i.e. Is there any point in giving her over 3GB ?


Ship

Shiperton Henethe2
 
C

Curt Christianson

Hi Ship,

In addition to Mark's advice, you may want to read this article by MVP Tim
Slattery:

4 GB RAM in Windows XP
http://members.cox.net/slatteryt/RAM.html


--
HTH,
Curt

Windows Support Center
www.aumha.org
Practically Nerded,...
http://dundats.mvps.org/Index.htm

| Hi
|
| Is it true that WindowsXP Pro has a 3GB limit on addressable RAM
| space?
|
| We have a user who regularly uses spreadsheets of 1.5 to 2+GB in size
| (on the hard disk).
| - How much RAM should we give her?
| - i.e. Is there any point in giving her over 3GB ?
|
|
| Ship
|
| Shiperton Henethe2
|
 
J

John John

Windows XP 32-bit has an addressable limit of 4GB RAM. Put a full 4GB
of RAM in the machine if it supports it. You will not be able to use
the full 4GB because some of the RAM at the Top of Memory address range
must be made available to other hardware. What you will be able to use
depends on what the other hardware needs, don't expect any more than 3.5
GB, it could be anything between 2.75 to 3.5GB. The 4GB RAM address
limit applies to multi-processor machines also.

If the application is "LARGEADDRESSWARE" aware then you may be able to
use 4GB tuning by using the /3GB switch in the boot.ini file. That will
not allow Windows to increase the addressable memory range but it will
limit the operating system to 1GB of memory and allow LARGEADDRESSWARE
applications to use 3GB.

John
 
J

Jim

ship said:
Hi

Is it true that WindowsXP Pro has a 3GB limit on addressable RAM
space?

We have a user who regularly uses spreadsheets of 1.5 to 2+GB in size
(on the hard disk).
- How much RAM should we give her?
- i.e. Is there any point in giving her over 3GB ?


Ship

Shiperton Henethe2
The amount of physical RAM cannot exceed 4 GB since Windows XP does not
employ the PAE facility (a CPU instruction, etc.).
However, when Windows loads, it reserves some of this physical RAM for its
own uses. Users report that the remainder is somewhat more than 3 GB.

The amount of virtual address space cannot exceet 4 GB. However, since
Windows must be mapped into the virtual address space of all processes,
the amount that is available to user programs and data is usually 2 GB. You
can increase the amount of virtual address space to 3 GB with the
well documented /3GB switch. Have you implemented the /3GB switch?

Thus, my answer is there is a slight benefit to more than 3 GB. However,
unless the particular computer is showing some kind of performance
degradation,
then I see little reason for action. It would be useful to study the memory
usage of the program while the user is doing something with the files.
In addition, if you have not implemented the use of the /3GB switch, and if
the programs run without problems, then the computer does not need
more than 2GB of physical RAM.

Jim
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Hi

Is it true that WindowsXP Pro has a 3GB limit on addressable RAM
space?


No, it's 4GB. However in 32-bit Windows XP (and Vista too) some of
that address space is used for hardware devices and can not be used by
applications or Windows itself. Exactly how much that is depends on
what hardware is installed, but most machines can use a maximum of
somewhere around 3.1GB of RAM.

We have a user who regularly uses spreadsheets of 1.5 to 2+GB in size
(on the hard disk).
- How much RAM should we give her?


2.5-3GB sounds like it should suffice.

- i.e. Is there any point in giving her over 3GB ?


No.
 
T

Tim Slattery

John John said:
If the application is "LARGEADDRESSWARE" aware then you may be able to
use 4GB tuning by using the /3GB switch in the boot.ini file. That will
not allow Windows to increase the addressable memory range but it will
limit the operating system to 1GB of memory and allow LARGEADDRESSWARE
applications to use 3GB.

But be aware that this applies to the 4GB Virtual Address space given
to each process running with XP, NOT to physical RAM.
 
H

HEMI-Powered

Curt Christianson added these comments in the current discussion
du jour ...
Hi Ship,

In addition to Mark's advice, you may want to read this
article by MVP Tim Slattery:

4 GB RAM in Windows XP
http://members.cox.net/slatteryt/RAM.html
It has been explained to me before, but I still do not understand
it. I have 4 gig but when I look at Taskmanager, it shows only 3. I
use the term "Windows hijacks one gig" to describe this. That's not
meant to be technical, just what it looks like. There is a logical
explanation, but AFAIK, the real memory space maximum for a single
CPU that any XP apps can access is 3 gig.
 
H

HEMI-Powered

Jim added these comments in the current discussion du jour ...
The amount of physical RAM cannot exceed 4 GB since Windows XP
does not employ the PAE facility (a CPU instruction, etc.).
However, when Windows loads, it reserves some of this physical
RAM for its own uses. Users report that the remainder is
somewhat more than 3 GB.

According to Taskmanager on my 4 gig AMD system, I have 3,144,112
= 2.9985 GB, essentially 3, so Windows apparently takes 1 of my
gigs for "its own uses", whatever that is.
The amount of virtual address space cannot exceet 4 GB.
However, since Windows must be mapped into the virtual address
space of all processes, the amount that is available to user
programs and data is usually 2 GB. You can increase the
amount of virtual address space to 3 GB with the well
documented /3GB switch. Have you implemented the /3GB switch?

Never heard of this. Is there a /4GB switch so I can take
advantage of a gig I paid $200+ for but cannot access? When I
discoverd that, I felt cheated, but then, if I'd only bought 3
gig, then I'd have only 2, right?
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Jim added these comments in the current discussion du jour ...


According to Taskmanager on my 4 gig AMD system, I have 3,144,112
= 2.9985 GB, essentially 3, so Windows apparently takes 1 of my
gigs for "its own uses", whatever that is.


Never heard of this. Is there a /4GB switch so I can take
advantage of a gig I paid $200+ for but cannot access? When I
discoverd that, I felt cheated, but then, if I'd only bought 3
gig, then I'd have only 2, right?

No, wrong. All 32-bit machines have that same 4GB address space. It
takes that amount of address space (not RAM)--usually a little less
than 1GB--from the 4GB total, leaving around 3.1GB of address for real
memory. If you had 2GB of RAM, it would fit into the remaining 3.1GB
without a problem.
 
J

Jim

HEMI-Powered said:
Jim added these comments in the current discussion du jour ...


According to Taskmanager on my 4 gig AMD system, I have 3,144,112
= 2.9985 GB, essentially 3, so Windows apparently takes 1 of my
gigs for "its own uses", whatever that is.


Never heard of this. Is there a /4GB switch so I can take
advantage of a gig I paid $200+ for but cannot access? When I
discoverd that, I felt cheated, but then, if I'd only bought 3
gig, then I'd have only 2, right?
There is no /4GB switch. There never will be one on a 32 bit operating
system.
The answer to you second question is probably. It all depends on how XP
manages the physical memory.
The /3GB switch controls the size of the user portion of the virtual address
space (which is not the same as
RAM).
The operating system must be mapped into your virtual address space if:
1. You expect see output on the screen
2. You expect to send data to the operating system from the keyboard
3. You like to use a mouse
4. You want to read from mass storage or to write to it.
5. You want to access the internet
6. You want to send output to your printer
7. You want to use your scanner.
Now, if you don't want to do any of those things, you don't need a computer.
Jim
 
J

John John

Tim said:
If the application is "LARGEADDRESSWARE" aware then you may be able to
use 4GB tuning by using the /3GB switch in the boot.ini file. That will
not allow Windows to increase the addressable memory range but it will
limit the operating system to 1GB of memory and allow LARGEADDRESSWARE
applications to use 3GB.


But be aware that this applies to the 4GB Virtual Address space given
to each process running with XP, NOT to physical RAM.


"Typically, a process running under Windows 2000 or Windows Server 2003
can access up to 2 GB of memory address space (assuming the /3GB switch
was not used) with some of the memory being physical memory and some
being virtual memory. The more programs (and, therefore, more processes)
that run, the more memory you commit up to the full 2 GB of address space.

When this situation occurs, the paging process increases dramatically
and performance may be negatively impacted...

A program that requests 3 GB of memory is more likely to be able to have
more of its memory remain in physical memory rather than be paged out.
This increases the performance of programs that are capable of using the
/3GB switch. The exception is when the /3GB switch is used in
conjunction with...

[end quote]

Large memory support is available in Windows Server 2003 and in Windows 2000
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/283037/

Windows XP is not PAE capable.

John
 
H

HEMI-Powered

Ken Blake, MVP added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...
No, wrong. All 32-bit machines have that same 4GB address
space. It takes that amount of address space (not
RAM)--usually a little less than 1GB--from the 4GB total,
leaving around 3.1GB of address for real memory. If you had
2GB of RAM, it would fit into the remaining 3.1GB without a
problem.

So, then the real limit is 3 gig of USABLE RAM, so if I had bought
only 3 gig instead of 4, what would taskmanager show, 3.1GB or
2.1GB? Sorry, I understand clearly the difference between usable
RAM and address space, which is simply defined by the bit length,
but I still do not understand how much RAM would be usable to me
had I bought less than 4. If you could clarify it simply, I would
appreciate knowing. Thank you.
 
H

HEMI-Powered

Jim added these comments in the current discussion du jour ...
There is no /4GB switch. There never will be one on a 32 bit
operating system.
The answer to you second question is probably. It all depends
on how XP manages the physical memory.
The /3GB switch controls the size of the user portion of the
virtual address space (which is not the same as
RAM).
The operating system must be mapped into your virtual address
space if: 1. You expect see output on the screen
2. You expect to send data to the operating system from the
keyboard 3. You like to use a mouse
4. You want to read from mass storage or to write to it.
5. You want to access the internet
6. You want to send output to your printer
7. You want to use your scanner.
Now, if you don't want to do any of those things, you don't
need a computer. Jim

Thank you, Jim. Here is my main and ONLY interest: I want my
applications, primarily graphics apps such as my scanner and
graphics editor, to run as quickly as possible by giving them the
most possible room in usable RAM, at the same time as a dozen
other things are sitting in memory but basically unused. In my
case, I've got 3 instances of Windows Explorer on my task bar,
IE6, OE6, Excel, Word, Taskmanager itself, the Recycle Bin, a
couple of NNTP news readers/posters such as Xnews that I'm using
to compose this reply, PSP 9, XP's Search function, a graphics
thumbnail database, and a couple of Notepad files. NONE of those
things are ever doing anything at all, or nothing that is even a
minor user of memory, when I am doing complicated raster graphics
work in PSP, yet it is slower than I would expect with a 2.6 gig
AMD Athlon CPU and all that 4 gig/3 gig usable RAM.

My particular set of running programs isn't the issue nor is it
whether or not PSP 9 is a efficient program or not, I simply have
been curious since I had this PC custom built a couple years ago
why PSP 9 failed to run more than about 25-40% faster than it did
on a 1.6 gig AMD machine with XP SP1 and only 512 MB of memory.
If the answer is "get another graphics editor", I will thank but
say "no thanks, not right now". But, if I have my system set up
sub-optimally out of ignorance - and my computer guru and builder
nephew of mine is equally ignorant - then I would appreciate just
a heads-up and I will investigate the details on my own.

In short, I would ask you to please not lecture me on my
stupidity for wanting to do what I am doing and please not
suggest I buy a new PC with Vista, but to politely point me in a
direction that I can help myself. Thank you.
 
B

Bob I

IF, you had installed 3GB AND your video card/graphic subsystem does NOT
use main RAM you would have 3 GB, the 4th GB of RAM has some portion of
it's address space PREempted by hardware addresses. The area preempted
is related to the hardware installed, less hardware, fewer address
required to be assigned, less RAM goes "missing". Add more hardware,
more addresses get used, less RAM addressable. IF you went really nuts
with the add-in cards and video memory assignments you could certainly
clobber RAM adressing back to under 3 GB available.
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Ken Blake, MVP added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...


So, then the real limit is 3 gig of USABLE RAM,


Yes. Actually usually a little more.

so if I had bought
only 3 gig instead of 4, what would taskmanager show, 3.1GB or
2.1GB?


Neither. If you had 3GB, it would show 3GB.

Sorry, I understand clearly the difference between usable
RAM and address space, which is simply defined by the bit length,
but I still do not understand how much RAM would be usable to me
had I bought less than 4. If you could clarify it simply, I would
appreciate knowing. Thank you.


*All* the RAM you have is usable to you, up to a maximum of *around*
3.1GB (again, depending on your hardware). Anything more than that is
not usable.

This 3.1GB or so limit is on 32-bit Windows. If you were running
64-bit Windows, it would go away.
 
S

Swifty

- How much RAM should we give her?
- i.e. Is there any point in giving her over 3GB ?

Some PC manufacturers fit a hardware memory management module that is
restricted to 3Gb - some Lenovo ThinkPads and certainly my 8212 desktop
are affected. No matter how much RAM you install, you cannot access more
than 3Gb of it if you have one of these.

I would imagine that other manufacturers have similarly affected systems.
 
H

HEMI-Powered

Bob I added these comments in the current discussion du jour ...
IF, you had installed 3GB AND your video card/graphic
subsystem does NOT use main RAM you would have 3 GB, the 4th
GB of RAM has some portion of it's address space PREempted by
hardware addresses. The area preempted is related to the
hardware installed, less hardware, fewer address required to
be assigned, less RAM goes "missing". Add more hardware, more
addresses get used, less RAM addressable. IF you went really
nuts with the add-in cards and video memory assignments you
could certainly clobber RAM adressing back to under 3 GB
available.

Thank you. AFAIK, my ATI Radeon does not use main RAM. I don't
remember the fine details, but I think it is maxed out at 256MB.
I had my current PC maxed out on everything except the absolute
fastest clock speed AMD chip. I didn't do that because the 3X
price ding only would've produced a modest performance increase
by my estimates.
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Some PC manufacturers fit a hardware memory management module that is
restricted to 3Gb - some Lenovo ThinkPads and certainly my 8212 desktop
are affected. No matter how much RAM you install, you cannot access more
than 3Gb of it if you have one of these.


It's true that you can't access more than about 3.1GB on any 32-bit
Windows system. But that's *not* the reason.

32-bit XP can use up to 4GB of address space. However the 4GB address
space has to be shared with memory used for other devices. So Windows
(not just XP but all 32-bit versions, including 32-bit Vista) can't
use that entire 4GB for itself.

How much it can use is around 3GB, but depends on what devices are
installed. It's normally a little more than 3GB.
 
H

HEMI-Powered

Ken Blake, MVP added these comments in the current discussion du
jour ...
Yes. Actually usually a little more.

Are you using 1,000 or 1,024 bytes/KB? If the former, than I show
3.14GB. If the latter, I show about 2.98GB. "Three" seems like
such a nice round number, I just use that.
Neither. If you had 3GB, it would show 3GB.

So, I wasted over $200 on that 4th gig of RAM I installed? I'm
not disputing you, I am just shaking my head from lack of
understanding. Let me try this: IF, big "if", a program could be
written to get at the upper gig somehow, then, yes, I would have
the entire $850 worth of memory I paid for. But, since standard
32-bit XP cannot, I "lose" it effectly. Is /that/ correct?
*All* the RAM you have is usable to you, up to a maximum of
*around* 3.1GB (again, depending on your hardware). Anything
more than that is not usable.

See above for clarification on 3.14 gig.
This 3.1GB or so limit is on 32-bit Windows. If you were
running 64-bit Windows, it would go away.

I didn't buy 64-bit XP even though it was available because my
assessment, rightly or wrongly, was that it was extremely buggy,
unstable, lacking in drivers to really take advantage of the
increased address space, AND most importantly, none of my older
apps would be able to use it anyway. Is this right or wrong?

Thanks for you comments.
 

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