Detects "Microsoft Windows Operating System" ???

B

Bill Sanderson

I can't disagree. Let's hope that by the end of the beta such updates don't
have this result. That said, I really don't remember seeing this myself,
nor have I had any inquries from my users. What OS version and what IE
version?
 
R

Ron Chamberlin

Bill,
I had it on 2 boxes the other day. I figured it was a result of changes made
by the patches and allowed them.

Ron Chamberlin
MS-MVP
 
B

Bill Sanderson

I did a few dozen machines late Tuesday night, and all remotely from home.
I might easily have blown right past those prompts making the same
assumption you did. I need to be more systematic and record this
stuff--clearly my memory isn't doing the job!
 
S

Snack

Bill said:
I did a few dozen machines late Tuesday night, and all remotely from home.
I might easily have blown right past those prompts making the same
assumption you did. I need to be more systematic and record this
stuff--clearly my memory isn't doing the job!

I'm dying for anything to clean my 275 machines so I watch like a hawk.

OS - Windows XP Pro SP2
Browser - IE 6.0.2900.2180.xpsp_sp2_rtm.040803-2158

Browser in use: Firefox 1.0 (no ActiveX = no spyware)
 
A

A McGuire

Just a minor correction: no ActiveX does not ensure you will not get
spyware. It is one precaution, but then again if you know how to use IE and
stay fully patched, you won't get hit either. The "Firefox" bonanza is all
hype - check last week's CERT advisory - Firefox 1.0 has a Medium risk
vulnerability with no patch available, not to mention a proof of concept
exploit already. If Firefox had the market share IE did, it would be the
target as well - all they want to do is reach the most desktops with the
least effort ;-)
 
S

Snack

A said:
Just a minor correction: no ActiveX does not ensure you will not get
spyware.

Please direct us to non Windows + IE spyware that installs itself via
port 80. Please inform us why ActiveX is in hack like band aid fashion
disabled for the local machine in XPSP2.
It is one precaution, but then again if you know how to use IE

This one is funny. Please inform the 80% of America that's estimated to
be infected (All 80% are Windows IE users) how to properly use IE. The
proper use is to not use :)
and
stay fully patched, you won't get hit either.
Incorrect.

The "Firefox" bonanza is all
hype - check last week's CERT advisory - Firefox 1.0 has a Medium risk
vulnerability with no patch available, not to mention a proof of concept
exploit already.

Please stay on target we're talking about Spyware. Again I would love to
see a Spyware exploit for Firefox or non Winodws + IE configuration that
is web based.

Any since we're referencing Cert they have 136 Vulnerabilities listed
for IE and here's their recommendation from 8 months ago, excellent
advice until MS releases IE 7 which is seperated from the OS and
hopefully more secure.


<http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/713878>

"Use a different web browser

There are a number of significant vulnerabilities in technologies
relating to the IE domain/zone security model, local file system (Local
Machine Zone) trust, the Dynamic HTML (DHTML) document object model (in
particular, proprietary DHTML features), the HTML Help system, MIME type
determination, the graphical user interface (GUI), and ActiveX. These
technologies are implemented in operating system libraries that are used
by IE and many other programs to provide web browser functionality. IE
is integrated into Windows to such an extent that vulnerabilities in IE
frequently provide an attacker significant access to the operating system.

It is possible to reduce exposure to these vulnerabilities by using a
different web browser, especially when viewing untrusted HTML documents
(e.g., web sites, HTML email messages). Such a decision may, however,
reduce the functionality of sites that require IE-specific features such
as proprietary DHTML, VBScript, and ActiveX. Note that using a different
web browser will not remove IE from a Windows system, and other programs
may invoke IE, the WebBrowser ActiveX control (WebOC), or the HTML
rendering engine (MSHTML)"
If Firefox had the market share IE did, it would be the
target as well - all they want to do is reach the most desktops with the
least effort ;-)

With 100% market Firefox does not have Activex, is not tied to the OS
and will never have any where near the security issues IE will.

Bottom line - Install Firefox right now and you will not get Spyware via
the web. Nothing else needed, period. No anti-spyware needed, no hours
and days wasted battling spyware, no down time, no rogue software
installed via the browser... simple and clear choice.
 
A

A McGuire

I've never been hit - period. You can think what you would like I suppose.
Again, Windows + IE is the target because there are over 600 million Windows
machines worldwide and IE still has a 93% marketshare. It's not rocket
science as to why people continually try to attack MS products.

I'm fully patched... I wish I could let you try to hack my laptop someday.
You would get nowhere. If I weren't updated, you would have a field day
with the vulnerabilities that are well known out there. That is what
patching and upgrading is for.

Some people...
 
S

Snack

A said:
I've never been hit - period. You can think what you would like I suppose.
Again, Windows + IE is the target because there are over 600 million Windows
machines worldwide and IE still has a 93% marketshare.

Market share or not other browsers and other OS'es do not have the
inherent security issues built in like Microsoft does, issues that are
all related to add on ease of use functionality (i.e. self inflicted
issues designed to make MS more attractive as a platform)
It's not rocket
science as to why people continually try to attack MS products.

Yep CERT makes that very clear:
"These technologies are implemented in operating system libraries that
are used by IE and many other programs to provide web browser
functionality. IE is integrated into Windows to such an extent that
vulnerabilities in IE frequently provide an attacker significant access
to the operating system."
I'm fully patched... I wish I could let you try to hack my laptop someday.
You would get nowhere. If I weren't updated, you would have a field day
with the vulnerabilities that are well known out there. That is what
patching and upgrading is for.

Spyware, we're talking about spyware. And evidently there is no spot in
your cowboy attitude for the Millions of people who due to Microsoft
Windows and Internet explorer are having extremely poor computing
experiences.

I support 275+ users on Windows 2000 Professional, please let me know
how to patch our machines to prevent spyware? We've had excellent
results with Firefox to the point that it's being looked at for the
browser of the future.
Windows XP SP2 is an answer? Microsoft consultants estimated upgrading
our enterprise (almost 5,000 user) would cost 7 million dollars. What
aer the benefits from XP that would justify that cost? So far the single
biggest one is the (semi lame) security updates available ONLY to XP
users via SP2.
Some people...

some people? no, hundreds of millions of people... 80% (people infected
with Spyware according to puvlished reports, how accurate who knows) of
600 million (your count of Windows user base, since Widnows is the sole
place Spyware exists) is one hell of a lot of peolpe. It's really to bad
that you take such a cavelier attitude towards the fact that hundreds of
millions of people are having very poor computing experiences.
 
A

A McGuire

Off the topic now - done with you. I see you have bigger problems than I
thought if you don't see the ROI with XP SP2.
 
B

Bill Sanderson

Snack said:
I support 275+ users on Windows 2000 Professional, please let me know how
to patch our machines to prevent spyware? We've had excellent results with
Firefox to the point that it's being looked at for the browser of the
future.
Windows XP SP2 is an answer? Microsoft consultants estimated upgrading our
enterprise (almost 5,000 user) would cost 7 million dollars. What aer the
benefits from XP that would justify that cost? So far the single biggest
one is the (semi lame) security updates available ONLY to XP users via
SP2.

I guess you've made your decision then, since IE7 will be available only for
Windows XP Service pack 2, before Longhorn, at any rate.

What's been your experience with security patches for Firefox, and how would
you compare that experience with the available tools and mechanisms
Microsoft uses to distribute patches. I'm not talking about frequency or
"urgency" of patches--lets take it as a given that there will be security
flaws found and patches needed regardless of browser vendor. What are the
standards Firefox adheres to in this area? What's the proportion of
unpatched to patched vulnerabilities?
 
S

Snack

A said:
Off the topic now - done with you.

You're a funny guy.
I see you have bigger problems than I
thought if you don't see the ROI with XP SP2.

You have an open invitation to come to my place of employ and win them
over with your charming attitude and to fix our custom apps and
processes that are broken by XP and SP2. Once you've accomplished these
simple tasks I'll be more than glad to roll out XP.
 
S

Snack

Bill said:
I guess you've made your decision then, since IE7 will be available only for
Windows XP Service pack 2, before Longhorn, at any rate.

Thank you for responding thoughtfully...

Our companies target is to not migrate from 2K until Longhorn (sigh).
I have input and I'm very pro XP for many reasons, but I do not control
budgets, applications nor the shareholders.
What's been your experience with security patches for Firefox, and how would
you compare that experience with the available tools and mechanisms
Microsoft uses to distribute patches. I'm not talking about frequency or
"urgency" of patches--lets take it as a given that there will be security
flaws found and patches needed regardless of browser vendor.

My experience with Firefox has only seen two security updates rolled out
since version 1.0 and my experience was the first failed when using the
browsers auto-installer (FF gets a notification of updates in the title
bar area similar to a Windows update notification in the sys tray) but
the update worked when installed from their website. Second update went
fine. My thoughts are that the browser is two new to effectively analyze
the process from an end user standpoint.

What are the
standards Firefox adheres to in this area? What's the proportion of

I don't know though, just like I don't know Microsofts.
Here's a relevant page, open to the public mind you....
unpatched to patched vulnerabilities?

At this point I believe it's 100% of know issues, time will tell!

My major security concern with Firefox / Mozilla products are the
Extensions. See the text below as to why Firefox is inherently more
secure out of the box and why no matter how many patches MS puts out,
until they change core functions/features (IE 7?, Longhorn?) they will
have ongoing issues.

Firefox does not allow programs to be installed on your computer without
your permission (partially addressed in XP SP2), does not have access to
"local" execution, and does not have ActiveX. These are the bane of IE /
Windows security, all of which exist for "luxury" level functionality
and were all know to be security issues when deployed.

Mozilla Security
<http://www.mozilla.org/security/>

Know bugs that have been fixed (seems out of date)
<http://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/known-vulnerabilities.html>

Cash rewards for security bugs
<http://www.mozilla.org/security/bug-bounty.html>


<http://www.mozilla.org/security/security-announcement.html>
Recent security failings in Internet Explorer have caused experts
(Including the United States Department of Homeland Security's Computer
Emergency Readiness Team) to recommend that consumers stop using
Internet Explorer and switch to other browsers. Mozilla Firefox and
other Mozilla browsers use a fundamentally different security
architecture than does Internet Explorer. As a result, Mozilla browsers
are not affected by a range of security problems that compromise
Internet Explorer. For more detail on exploits leading to the suggestion
to switch see: http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/713878 and
http://secunia.com/advisories/12048/.

The Mozilla design approach is to provide multiple layers of defense so
that if one protection mechanism performs imperfectly, another
protection mechanism (or two or three) will act as a safety net, thus
strengthening the system's ability to defeat attacks.

Security benefits of Mozilla browsers include:

1. Firefox and other Mozilla browsers do not allow a website to download
onto, install onto, or execute code on a user's computer without the
user's agreement.

2. Firefox and Mozilla browsers do not designate content as "local." An
architecture that includes the concept of "local" content and then gives
such content upgraded security permissions and allows it greater access
to the user's machines, means that content which is mistakenly treated
as local has vastly more potential to do damage. Indeed we saw this type
of problem in the recent Internet Explorer vulnerabilities, in which
malicious content was secretly sent to users machines, managed to
falsely identify itself as "local" content to Internet Explorer, was
then granted enhanced access to machines running Internet Explorer, and
used that access to install a program which logged keystrokes, including
credit card numbers. Mozilla users were not affected. A more detailed
description can be found at: http://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/713878.

It should be noted that these security policies can result in some loss
of convenience to the user. We all make these trade-offs in many areas
of life. For example, needing a key to open the front door of our homes
means we all have to get keys, find them in the morning and make sure
not to lose them during the day, which is far less convenient than
leaving the door unlocked. Most of us choose to trade the inconvenience
of locks on our front door for the greater security this provides. For
users who want increased security, Mozilla browsers are a great choice.

3. Internet Explorer uses a technology known as ActiveX. ActiveX,
particularly in combination with the "local" concept described above,
has been very fertile ground for those designing security exploits.
Here's how Slate summarized the problem with Active X (see
http://slate.msn.com/id/2103152 for the complete article):

The problem is that hackers continue to find and exploit security holes
in Explorer. Many of them take advantage of Explorer's ActiveX system,
which lets Web sites download and install software onto visitors'
computers, sometimes without users' knowledge. ActiveX was meant to make
it easy to add the latest interactive multimedia and other features to
sites, but instead it's become a tool for sneaking spyware onto
unsuspecting PCs.

4. Mozilla browsers maintain a separation between the application and
the operating system. IE browsing functionality is becoming increasingly
integrated into Windows; a security problem in browsing functionality
may therefore affect services which are shared with, or relied on by,
other parts of the operating system. This makes a multi-layered
defensive strategy complex to design and implement effectively. The
convergence of Internet Explorer and the Windows operating system has
provided fertile ground for malicious programmers.
 
S

Snack

Bill said:
I guess you've made your decision then, since IE7 will be available only for
Windows XP Service pack 2, before Longhorn, at any rate.

What's been your experience with security patches for Firefox, and how would
you compare that experience with the available tools and mechanisms
Microsoft uses to distribute patches. I'm not talking about frequency or
"urgency" of patches--lets take it as a given that there will be security
flaws found and patches needed regardless of browser vendor. What are the
standards Firefox adheres to in this area? What's the proportion of
unpatched to patched vulnerabilities?

and as a follow up my issue to my rambling follow up to Bills excellent
question: I have been massively overwhelmed by Spyware for 18 months.
The only solutions available are XP SP2, non IE browsers, Linux,
"morning after" removal tools like ad-aware and more advanced Spyware
tools like MS Anti Spyware. I do what I can within the limitations of
our environment, it ain't fun.

Speaking of Ad Aware, yet another story about "Spyware" companies
exerting pressure. They've been doing it through the courts, lawsuits,
directly, attacking Universities who ban them etc... evil %^*()'ers
<http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=60401651>
 
A

A McGuire

Firefox has very little market share - it's relatively easy to reach 25
million users by just posting an update on their site and waiting for
Googlers to trip across it. MS has many more products to keep updated -
hundreds if not thousands. The scope of their patching mechanisms is much
more advanced. The second Tuesday of every month is Patch Tuesday - it's
not very systematic and easy to roll out updates with the likes of
SMS/WUS/SUS - you choose depending on your organization.

Firefox still has vulnerabilities that I've noted that are unpatched. Go to
US-CERT, and you fill find an additional Firefox exploit for this month -
this time rated Medium - no fix.
 
A

A McGuire

So you patch Firefox via the sneakernet? Do you walk to every workstation?
Or do your users use IE? What is the centralized management plan for
Mozilla products? I haven't heard of one yet - you'll have to get something
like SMS or anther central management solution, unless you want to continue
walking to every workstation.
 
A

A McGuire

"I have been massively overwhelmed by Spyware for 18 months."

That is unfortunate - I've had relatively none. What do you do to proactively stop it?

My configuration:
I run Spyware Blaster, which populates IE and Firefox with known bad sites and ActiveX controls - very useful.
I run Spyware Guard - I may uninstall this one - MSAS is catching everything these days.
I run MSAS beta - I'm very happy with it so far.
I run periodic AdAware scans to see if anything was missed by MSAS - normally only cookies, which MSAS does not block.
I run Norton AV to address viruses - looking forward to the new MS AV product coming out soon.
I periodically run the Microsoft Malicious Software Removal Tool to ensure I'm clean of major threats. I am.
I have my host-based firewall enabled - comes with XP.
Upgraded to SP2 - there are many benefits including pop-up blockers, improved file handling, etc.
Made my HOSTS file read-only. See http://www.mvps.org/winhelp2002/hosts.htm.
I have WUS installed at my workplace for deploying patches - I'm always up to date, and manage our in-house patch management solution.
 
P

plun

A said:
Firefox has very little market share - it's relatively easy to reach 25
million users by just posting an update on their site and waiting for
Googlers to trip across it. MS has many more products to keep updated -
hundreds if not thousands. The scope of their patching mechanisms is much
more advanced. The second Tuesday of every month is Patch Tuesday - it's
not very systematic and easy to roll out updates with the likes of
SMS/WUS/SUS - you choose depending on your organization.

Firefox still has vulnerabilities that I've noted that are unpatched. Go to
US-CERT, and you fill find an additional Firefox exploit for this month -
this time rated Medium - no fix.

Isn´t competition good for consumers ?. I cant understand this.

The first browser i used was Mosaic, early 90.s and at that
time
it was real competition. Then IE come and took almost every
user.

We must applaud all new software builder so we get better
products.

http://www.spreadfirefox.com/

Nokia switch from IE to Firefox, high tech cellphone company.

http://www.spreadfirefox.com/?q=node/view/11774
 
B

Bill Sanderson

I'm in favor of competition. I'd be pleased to see Microsoft Antispyware
extended to include Firefox coverage, not that I think it likely, for a
number of reasons. That doesn't change the issues of vulnerability response
and patching mechanisms, though.

I was impressed to see that they've tweaked the Genuine Windows validation
process to make it possible via Firefox.
 

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