Defective AMD 4200+ X2 CPU ?? - Catastrophically Overheating

[John Smith]

Note: The Boxed Retail AMD processor looked OK from the outside, but the
green packing material housing the fan and heat sink was badly mangled and
almost disintegrated. The CPU itself was secure in it plastic cover.

I built a lightly loaded system with the following:

AMD 4200+ X2
Asus A8V Deluxe Motherboard
Antec P180 case w/3 case fans
Zalman 7700 Fan/Heatsink
500 Watt Power Supply (Xion)
400 mb WD 7200 rpm drive
1 mb of DDR ram running at standard speed

No overclocking at all, Matrox video card.

At idle w/nothing going on the CPU is at 45c. The CPU is overheating wildly
when certain CPU intensive programs start to run. Simply loading the Yahoo
Music engine causes the Asus temperature probe to register a rapid jump from
45c to 80c - it is a hockey stick like curve and unless the program is
terminated, it will cause the PC to shut off. I just started using the
system, so I have not run that many programs, but several install programs
have hung and at this point I would like to troubleshoot the problem. I
maxed out the speed on the Zalman fan on the heat sink which is adjustable
and the problem noted above occurs regardless.

Do I have a bad CPU? Is is possible it was damaged in transit?
Is there a possible issue w/the mounting of the heat sink (not enough
thermal grease)?
Is there an issue w/the motherboard?
Is there an issue /w voltage or memory?
How should I proceed?

I would appreciate any help you can provide.

 

[John Smith]

One other thing to note is that as soon as the Yahoo program is terminated
the CPU temp goes right back down to 45c

 

[RonK]

Sounds like the heatsink is not contacting the cpu properly. Did you have
any problems attaching the heatsink/fan ?

 

[John Smith]

A couple of possibilities:

1. First the tech I hired to help me to this did not spread the thermal
grease around enough in my opinion. He simply put 8 or nine small piles on
the CPU and told me that grease would automatically spread around. I thought
it was odd, but perhaps this could be a factor.

2. The workaround was performed correctly, but perhaps this is an issue.
http://www.zalman.co.kr/product/cooler/7000_A8VDeluxe_eng.html

"There are some capacitors (circled in red) that interfere with Zalman's
AMD64 Backplate on the backside of the A8V Deluxe. Zalman recommends
following procedures for this combination.

1. Remove the retention frame only, and place our CPU cooler at the center
of the CPU.

2. Screw in the original bolts provided with the motherboard, then tighten
each bolt a few turns at a time while alternating between the two until the
clearance between the motherboard and the bottom of the clip (or grip) is
13.5mm.

(TIP) You can easily check the 13.5mm clearance by placing the "AMD64
Nipple" provided with CNPS7000A, CNPS7000B, CNPS7700 and ZM-WB2 Gold between
the motherboard and the bottom of the clip (or grip) as shown below."

 

[Paul]

Note: The Boxed Retail AMD processor looked OK from the outside, but the
green packing material housing the fan and heat sink was badly mangled and
almost disintegrated. The CPU itself was secure in it plastic cover.

I built a lightly loaded system with the following:

AMD 4200+ X2
Asus A8V Deluxe Motherboard
Antec P180 case w/3 case fans
Zalman 7700 Fan/Heatsink
500 Watt Power Supply (Xion)
400 mb WD 7200 rpm drive
1 mb of DDR ram running at standard speed

No overclocking at all, Matrox video card.

At idle w/nothing going on the CPU is at 45c. The CPU is overheating wildly
when certain CPU intensive programs start to run. Simply loading the Yahoo
Music engine causes the Asus temperature probe to register a rapid jump from
45c to 80c - it is a hockey stick like curve and unless the program is
terminated, it will cause the PC to shut off. I just started using the
system, so I have not run that many programs, but several install programs
have hung and at this point I would like to troubleshoot the problem. I
maxed out the speed on the Zalman fan on the heat sink which is adjustable
and the problem noted above occurs regardless.

Do I have a bad CPU? Is is possible it was damaged in transit?
Is there a possible issue w/the mounting of the heat sink (not enough
thermal grease)?
Is there an issue w/the motherboard?
Is there an issue /w voltage or memory?
How should I proceed?

I would appreciate any help you can provide.

I cannot find the thread now, but there were some threads concerning
the performance of X2 duals a while back. Basically, what people
discovered, is one core is a much better overclocker than the other,
which didn't make a lot of sense. In one case, the processor was
barely stable at stock speeds.

Then someone decided to remove the IHS from the top of the processor.
I'm including this thread, as it has a picture of the inside of the
processor. I cannot remember which site did the original investigation
of the uneven performance of duals.

http://www.sharkyforums.com/showthread.php?t=271739&page=1&pp=15

The other picture I saw of a dissected core, showed a thermal interface
material that was a lot more granular. The theory was, that local
overheating (just a portion of the die) could happen. One guy
went from having a crappy dual core (one core pretty bad), to being
able to run both at 2.7GHz stable, when the IHS was removed.

I would suggest contacting AMD and getting an RMA. 80C sounds like
a pretty big jump, so it could be a problem with that grey stuff.

Paul

 

[RonK]

Hi John,

I'll bet the heatsink is not sitting perfectly flat on the cpu. I looked at
the page you included and it loolks like it would be very easy to cause a
contact problem.

I use the stock cooler on my 4400+ x2 and I have no overheating at all even
running Doom 3 with everything set on the highest settings.

Ron

 

[Wes Newell]

A couple of possibilities:

1. First the tech I hired to help me to this did not spread the thermal
grease around enough in my opinion. He simply put 8 or nine small piles on
the CPU and told me that grease would automatically spread around. I thought
it was odd, but perhaps this could be a factor.

Fire your tech. He onviously doesn't know that the core is in the center
of the heat spreader. And if you aren't going to spread it you should put
the grease right in the middle of the cpu. Putting drop around it as he
has may be keeping the hottest part of the cpu from even touching the
cooler and may have created an air pocket there.

2. The workaround was performed correctly, but perhaps this is an issue.
http://www.zalman.co.kr/product/cooler/7000_A8VDeluxe_eng.html

Should I ask why you didn't use then default cooler? From your link, it's
also obvious that there's a problem mounting the Zalman cooler on this
board. And if not installed properly, the cooler could be cocked, not
making good flush contact wityh the cpu. Just something else to check.

"There are some capacitors (circled in red) that interfere with Zalman's
AMD64 Backplate on the backside of the A8V Deluxe. Zalman recommends
following procedures for this combination.

1. Remove the retention frame only, and place our CPU cooler at the
center of the CPU.

2. Screw in the original bolts provided with the motherboard, then
tighten each bolt a few turns at a time while alternating between the
two until the clearance between the motherboard and the bottom of the
clip (or grip) is 13.5mm.

(TIP) You can easily check the 13.5mm clearance by placing the "AMD64
Nipple" provided with CNPS7000A, CNPS7000B, CNPS7700 and ZM-WB2 Gold
between the motherboard and the bottom of the clip (or grip) as shown
below."

Hmmmmm.... I don't like it. I suspect the cooler just isn't mounted
properly.

 

[Mark A]

Note: The Boxed Retail AMD processor looked OK from the outside, but the
green packing material housing the fan and heat sink was badly mangled and
almost disintegrated. The CPU itself was secure in it plastic cover.

I built a lightly loaded system with the following:

AMD 4200+ X2
Asus A8V Deluxe Motherboard
Antec P180 case w/3 case fans
Zalman 7700 Fan/Heatsink
500 Watt Power Supply (Xion)
400 mb WD 7200 rpm drive
1 mb of DDR ram running at standard speed

No overclocking at all, Matrox video card.

At idle w/nothing going on the CPU is at 45c. The CPU is overheating
wildly when certain CPU intensive programs start to run. Simply loading
the Yahoo Music engine causes the Asus temperature probe to register a
rapid jump from 45c to 80c - it is a hockey stick like curve and unless
the program is terminated, it will cause the PC to shut off. I just
started using the system, so I have not run that many programs, but
several install programs have hung and at this point I would like to
troubleshoot the problem. I maxed out the speed on the Zalman fan on the
heat sink which is adjustable and the problem noted above occurs
regardless.

Do I have a bad CPU? Is is possible it was damaged in transit?
Is there a possible issue w/the mounting of the heat sink (not enough
thermal grease)?
Is there an issue w/the motherboard?
Is there an issue /w voltage or memory?
How should I proceed?

I would appreciate any help you can provide.

Did you follow the manufacturer's instruction for applying the thermal
paste? What product did you use. More problems occur when too much thermal
paste is used rather than too little, but obviously we can't tell from here
what happened.

 

[John Smith]

Thanks for your reply Wes.

It doesn't sound like you think the AMD is defective and/or damaged. Right?
Because it runs fine unless you start doing activities which push its
buttons so to speak. If it was you, would you return it to AMD or proceed as
noted below?

Clearly, in retrospect, it would have been better to go w/a different
cooler. So the questionhere is whether to remount the cooler again or to
simply put the stock cooler on there and enable cool and quiet in the bios?
What's your vote? My issue w/the AMD cooler was that it was apt to be noisy
and I am trying to build a quiet machine.

I assume this will require the motherboard to be dismounted. Or not?

Why is it that loading a program like the Yahoo Music Engine or plugging in
an external drive causes the temp to spike when regular web browsing and
word processing don't seem to make any difference. Probably a rhetorical ?,
but curious.

 

[John Smith]

Paul,

I am not sure I follow you: "I would suggest contacting AMD and getting an
RMA. 80C sounds like
a pretty big jump, so it could be a problem with that grey stuff."

If the themal grease and cooler mounting is a problem, why get an RMA? This
tech used his own thermal grease, not what came w/the cooler.

 

[John Smith]

If I am going to remove and remount the cooler, perhaps using the native AMD
cooler instead, what do I have to do w/respect to the material now on the
surface of the CPU - wipe it off. I have no idea what kind of paste the tech
used. It was grey - I always used white stuff.

Assuming your hands are small enough and eyes good enough, can the cooler be
removed and the native AMD cooler put on w/out removing the motherboard.

 

[Mark A]

If I am going to remove and remount the cooler, perhaps using the native
AMD cooler instead, what do I have to do w/respect to the material now on
the surface of the CPU - wipe it off. I have no idea what kind of paste
the tech used. It was grey - I always used white stuff.

Assuming your hands are small enough and eyes good enough, can the cooler
be removed and the native AMD cooler put on w/out removing the
motherboard.

Yes, but you will need a flat head screwdriver to remove the clips. Make
certain that you do not twist the heatsink while doing this, or else the CPU
pins may get severely bent.

Consult the instructions on the vendor's webpage for installing the heatsink
(Zelman?), and also the AMD website. That will give you a better idea on
how the remove the clips.

Some aftermarket heatsinks require a different plastic mounting bracket that
may have replaced the stock bracket. But I don't know what heatsink you
have.

 

[Paul]

Paul,

I am not sure I follow you: "I would suggest contacting AMD and getting an
RMA. 80C sounds like
a pretty big jump, so it could be a problem with that grey stuff."

If the themal grease and cooler mounting is a problem, why get an RMA? This
tech used his own thermal grease, not what came w/the cooler.

I guess I assumed you'd already tried the obvious.

Paul

 

[paul]

First remove the mobo from the case, then remove the cooler.
Scrape off the paste, and reapply a new even coat of paste
Remount the cooler, reinstall mobo.
Restart system and see if problem still exists.

 

[Wes Newell]

Thanks for your reply Wes.

It doesn't sound like you think the AMD is defective and/or damaged. Right?
Because it runs fine unless you start doing activities which push its
buttons so to speak. If it was you, would you return it to AMD or proceed as
noted below?

I doubt it's damaged. They have internal thermal protection that works. I
can attest to that. Once fan stopped working and the cpu shut itself down.
Another time the middle tab on the bracket broke and the cooler almost
fell off. Damn AMD for only using a single tab clip.

Clearly, in retrospect, it would have been better to go w/a different
cooler. So the questionhere is whether to remount the cooler again or
to simply put the stock cooler on there and enable cool and quiet in the
bios? What's your vote? My issue w/the AMD cooler was that it was apt to
be noisy and I am trying to build a quiet machine.

The only reason the AMD cooler is somewhat noisy is because of teh 70x15mm
fan they used. I replaced it with a 70->80mm fan adapter and installed an
80x25mm 2500rpm fan. Quiet as a mouse, or least quieter than the other
components in the system. I'm in the process of turning this one into an
HTPC with 4 HDTV tuners and it's quiet enough for that IMO.

I assume this will require the motherboard to be dismounted. Or not?

I don't knoiw what it'll take to get the one off you have now, but it
doesn't need to be removed to the stock cooler, or a lot of others. Since
the tab broke I'm using a TR2-M6. Works fine for me and only cost about $6.

Why is it that loading a program like the Yahoo Music Engine or plugging
in an external drive causes the temp to spike when regular web browsing
and word processing don't seem to make any difference. Probably a
rhetorical ?, but curious.

CPU usage. I'm sitting here now typing this and also running MythTV
backend recording HD programs, but CPU load is so low, the CPU is scaled
back to 800MHz at 1.30v from the default 2000MHz at 1.5v (old hammer
core). Now once I go over 2% cpu usage, the core will speed up to 1800MHz
and 1.4v, which will heat it up more. Once I reach 80%, it goes into max
at 2000MHz and 1.5v. Then the cpu temp will go up to about 20C over case
temp. Still normally under 50C though. Oh, besides the really cheapass
cooler, I'm using 30 year old wheel bearing grease for a thermal compound
just to prove a point. Actually, I'm cycling between 800MHz and 1800MHz
pretty frequently right now. I really need to adjust that from over 2% to
about 5% I think.

 

[dino]

to clean CPU's of thermal paste I use CRC Electronic Cleaner..just spray it
on outside of case...and let it dry. I usually set the CPU up on a piece of
cardboard in my garage and do it..it makes a mess and stinks.

 

[John Smith]

Sure enough the thermal paste was put on unevenly and in very thick layers
on both the heatsink and CPU. I removed the motherboard. I am sending the
Zalman cooler back to Amazon - its not worth the hassle and am getting a
Thermaltake CL-P0114 instead.

Why is is that each of these companies has their own backplate. Why don't
they just use the one that is on the back of the Asus mb.

R

 

[Roger Hamlett]

Do not forget your earlier reply and try the cooler that accompanied the
CPU. Report back your findings, please.

Wes and Paul are always on-target and their advice is very sound.

Here is a link to Arctic Silver installation and scrolling down shows
the method of a single small portion and how the twist and install
results in a pretty good distribution of the thermal interface material.

http://www.arcticsilver.com/arctic_silver_instructions.htm

Lastly, being a cheap-skate, the TR2 mentioned earlier is a fine
cooler - I have them myself on 2 AMD64 systems and 2 Intel "furnaces".
All 4 cost me less than the single Big Typhoon. But I do not overclock,
except to experiment. Your plans may differ...

"Thick layers", explains a lot...
It is well worth reiterating a simple fact about all thermal compounds,
which is that you want the _least_ possible applied. If you take an
analogy of a brick wall, and 'mortar', using a mortar, that is weaker than
the bricks, all that is needed, is enough to fill all the gaps caused by
the irregularities in the surface of the bricks. If you apply more, you
make the joint thicker, and actually weaken the wall...
The same is basically true of the thermal compounds. Direct perfect
contact between the two surfaces, would be 'better' than any thermal
compound, but the micro irregularities in the surfaces, make it necessary
to have a 'gap filler'. If you have more compound than this, you are
thickening the joint, and actually making things worse.

Best Wishes

 

[John Smith]

"Wes and Paul are always on-target and their advice is very sound!!"

That's for sure and I also appreciate the insight on the "bricks and
mortar". No I know why the Berlin Wall fell so easily

re: reporting back the results, I certainly will. I am not going to mount
the AMD stock cooler though because that solution is simply too noisy for
me. Thanks for the link to Artic Silver, which I purchased.

The only other question I have is about the currently detached metal
backplate (removed for the Zalman install. Can you simply reattach it by
pressing it vs. the mb. It is still extemely sticky. It would catch a lot of
insects if you left it out. It seems like it would adhere and once screwed
in could never come loose.

Richard

 

[PB]

"Wes and Paul are always on-target and their advice is very sound!!"

That's for sure and I also appreciate the insight on the "bricks and
mortar". No I know why the Berlin Wall fell so easily

re: reporting back the results, I certainly will. I am not going to mount
the AMD stock cooler though because that solution is simply too noisy for
me. Thanks for the link to Artic Silver, which I purchased.

The only other question I have is about the currently detached metal
backplate (removed for the Zalman install. Can you simply reattach it by
pressing it vs. the mb. It is still extemely sticky. It would catch a lot of
insects if you left it out. It seems like it would adhere and once screwed
in could never come loose.

Richard

Well, the Thermaltake appears to be on sale with free three day
shipping. (I shall avoid a rant regarding NewEgg's choice to use UPS,
but, be advised they are almost always late by a day or two. And I live
in Louisville, KY, the UPS hub of operations. Most of my packages track
*through* Louisville and on to Lexington, and back, to arrive late.
What can "Brown" do for me? Nothing! But the shipping is free at the
moment... OK, a junior rant.)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16835106061

Now, according to this link:

http://thermaltake.com/support/installguide/coolers/CL-P114_Big_Typhoon.pdf

you are not supposed to remove the backplate, so I would think you
should reattach it with the sticky tape. (Remove any bugs that have
become affixed since you removed it and send them to Fear Factor.)

Good luck,

p00lb0y