Cost of toner

J

Jim P

Anybody else outraged about the cost of toner? These companies sell printers
for nothing, and after that they make tons of money charging me for the
toner...
 
M

mike

Jim said:
Anybody else outraged about the cost of toner? These companies sell printers
for nothing, and after that they make tons of money charging me for the
toner...

When you get old enough to shave, you're REALLY gonna be upset. ;-)

mike
 
N

NJ

Jim P said:
Anybody else outraged about the cost of toner? These companies sell
printers for nothing, and after that they make tons of money charging me
for the toner...


really toner is not that much?? or shouldnt be that much maybe $0.03/page?!
at least it's cheaper than inkjets :p
 
J

John Wright

Anybody else outraged about the cost of toner? These companies sell
printers for nothing, and after that they make tons of money charging me
for the toner...

When I worked for Hewlett Packard some years ago I was given this inside
information - that HP is not a computer company. It is not even a printer
company. It is an ink/toner company. Bulk of its profits comes from ink and
toner.

Regards -JW
 
B

Bob Headrick

When I worked for Hewlett Packard some years ago I was given this inside
information - that HP is not a computer company. It is not even a printer
company. It is an ink/toner company. Bulk of its profits comes from ink and
toner.

It is hardly inside information - HP's financials post each quarter the revenue
and profit by segment of the company. See:
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/investor/financials/quarters/2004/q4.html. In the
most recent quarter the "Printing and Imaging" sector had $6.5B of revenue, out
of a company overall of $21.1B.

- Bob Headrick
 
J

jbuch

Jim said:
Anybody else outraged about the cost of toner? These companies sell printers
for nothing, and after that they make tons of money charging me for the
toner...

Perhaps we should go back to the "GOOD OLD DAYS" when a Laserjet II
cost $2700.

Would that make you feel better?

Don't you just hate to see companies make money to stay in business.

They should lose money so as to give the customer the best bargain?
 
P

PJX

Perhaps we should go back to the "GOOD OLD DAYS" when a Laserjet II
cost $2700.

Would that make you feel better?

Don't you just hate to see companies make money to stay in business.

They should lose money so as to give the customer the best bargain?

You capitalist pig!

PJ
 
G

Glen S

jbuch said:
Perhaps we should go back to the "GOOD OLD DAYS" when a Laserjet II
cost $2700.

Would that make you feel better?

Don't you just hate to see companies make money to stay in business.

They should lose money so as to give the customer the best bargain?
I may be dating myself here, but a girl I used to get to print resumes
for me in my pre-pc days had an IBM daisy wheel quiet writer, I think I
recall her telling me she paid over C$2000 for.... But it was nice
output I'll have to say!
 
J

Jim P

You obviously hold some HP stocks :)

jbuch said:
Perhaps we should go back to the "GOOD OLD DAYS" when a Laserjet II cost
$2700.

Would that make you feel better?

Don't you just hate to see companies make money to stay in business.

They should lose money so as to give the customer the best bargain?
 
J

John Wright

It is hardly inside information ... See:
http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/investor/financials/quarters/2004/q4.html. In
the most recent quarter the "Printing and Imaging" sector had $6.5B of
revenue, out of a company overall of $21.1B.

Your figures are right, but a couple of points to note here -
1. You are talking revenue, I am talking profits. HP gets a lot of revenue
in areas where they make little profit, or even loss.
2. The figures published for their Printing & Imaging division do not show
the figures for ink/toner separately from printers. You can't tell from the
figures that they are at best breaking even on printers (perhaps even making
a loss) but make a killing on ink/toner (again, looking at profits not
revenue). This information is not published - this is where the inside
information came in.

Merry Christmas!!

Regards - JW
 
A

Alan

Anybody else outraged about the cost of toner? These companies sell printers
for nothing, and after that they make tons of money charging me for the
toner...

So don't buy it from the printer company. There are lots of places
that refurbish and refill toner carts, and sell them for generally
less than half the original price. Some make clone carts. Quality
varies, so ask around local companies that have used them. I've hardly
ever used an original HP cart, unless someone else was paying for it,
for the past 12 years.
 
A

Arthur Entlich

jbuch said:
Perhaps we should go back to the "GOOD OLD DAYS" when a Laserjet II
cost $2700.

If it meant the machine was designed to last (and today, even upgrade),
the consumables were at reasonable costs which were more like the cost
plus a reasonable profit margin, and parts were made available, customer
service was more than a phrase, and overall it reduced the desire of the
consumer to replace the whole printer every time they needed a toner or
ink refill, then yes, perhaps we should.
Would that make you feel better?

I would.

Don't you just hate to see companies make money to stay in business.


I'm gonna quote someone here, tell me if you recognize it:
I don't see how anybody coulld make a living repairing cheap electrical appliances.

You buy a new coffeemaker for $30. It breaks, and you get charged
$10.00 for the replacement heating element and $20 to install it. So,
for the consumer, it doesn't make sense to have a small appliances
repair system, except for a $200 expensive appliance or a ship it
back for a new one type of warranty service.
The bulk of the printers today in the hands of consumers are "cheap".

There are only a few shoe repair shops around these days, much less
than in the past. It is too expensive to repair most inexpensive shoes.
But, there are expensive shoes where repair makes good sense. $30 shoes
resoled for $15 vs $150 shoes resoled for $25 is a whole different
ball game.
The piezoelectric print heads are alleged to cost more than the
thermal/bubblejet heads to produce.
So, the profits on the headless full inktank cartridge are higher
than the profits on the inktank with built in thermal/bubblejet printing
head.
I really don't see the viability of expecting to make a living repairing "Cheap" products.

Jim

Now, you see, if the printers cost let's just say $800, since they now
sell for under $100 here in Canada, as maybe they should, and the toner
refills cost $40, rather than $150, people would keep their printers and
pay a couple hundred for a repair, keeping the repairman in business,
and they wouldn't want to chuck the printer every time it needed a new
toner fill, a slight repair, or a new one with a new bell or whistle
came out.

Not only that, but the inhabitants of the whole planet might benefit.
How much longer to you really think we can go down this wasteful road
before it is blocked by someone else's garbage in front of us?

They should lose money so as to give the customer the best bargain?

They already do on many products. We have become so craven to "the new
and best, we refuse to buy a printer that has been on the shelf over 6
months, so they are dumped below cost. In fact, many of the NEW
printers are sold below cost to try to get the "ink I.V. drip" started.

Lexmark lives on this concept. I almost never see Lexmark printers for
SALE in Canada, by far the large majority are "given away" with purchase
of just about anything computer related.

If this keeps up, you'll get one free with the purchased of a blank DVD.

Art
 
A

Arthur Entlich

The funny thing about that is (and I have held HP stock for about 10
years) when the company was indeed selling printers for $2700 the stock
never did better! It was splitting and recovering full value per share
every 6 months for a while there.

After all those years, I finally sold all my HP holdings a few days ago.
Looking over all those wonderful splits and spin-offs, I discovered,
much to my horror, that the profit I made, as a result of the massive
shrinkage of both the HP stock value and that of the spin offs, left me
with minimal profit, where years ago, the profits I had on paper were in
the hundreds of percent!

HP was one of the companies responsible for this new business model in
printers and the like (taken from the razor and instant camera
businesses, I presume) and they are now stuck with it, as it has become
a Pandora's box of which there is no going back.

I wish them luck, but, I'm done as an owner of their equity, and quite
likely, also of their product lines, until something does change (like
their CEO?)...

None of this is a reflection on some of their very dedicated past and
current employees, whom, I believe were/are trying to do their jobs
under the most difficult of circumstances.

Art
 
A

Arthur Entlich

Except the toy companies do not own the battery companies or vice versa,
in fact, in most cases, they have to buy the batteries they put into the
original packaging from other companies.

It would be different if the toy companies (even the adult toy companies
(like Apple, Sony, etc) has a stake in battery technology, but most do not.

In this case, the printer companies own much of the toner and ink
related business either directly or through subcontract.

Yes, there are many independent ink manufacturers, it's true, but the
largest chunk of the business by dollar is still going to the printer
companies.

Art
 
A

Arthur Entlich

I've seen the figures broken down. HP made almost ALL their profits on
consumables in the last several year. That includes ink, toner, paper,
etc. They are not alone in the printer world.

Art
 
A

Arthur Entlich

Yes, I sold them as well, which I was a bit more sad about. Walter
Hewlett, when he was voted out of the board from HP, moved to Agilent,
and I've always like him.

Apparently, an honest man with integrity and a heart, an intelligent,
cultured man. All the things that Carly Fiorina lambasted him for
being. Oh well, time to find some new and truly innovative companies to
invest in, I guess. I mean, how much longer can a company live on
buying up computer showroom space to corner the market while only making
reasonable profits on very outlandishly priced ink and toner.

It is all too bad. HP had so much potential. I hope some of the many
people who have left, either of their own accord, or by force, come back
together and start up something new.

Art
 
P

pete

Yes, I sold them as well, which I was a bit more sad about. Walter
Hewlett, when he was voted out of the board from HP, moved to Agilent,
and I've always like him.

- I told you so
- Definitely?
- Yes
- Are you sure?
- Because postings are reversed and one doesn't know what you are on about
- Why is top posting such a pain in the butt?
 

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