Cooling Questions for antec 1200, asus a8n32-sli, nvidia 7900 gtx.


S

Skybuck Flying

Hello,

I plan on buying the antec 1200 case which will house two nvidia gtx 7900
cards (with soundblaster sandwhiched between them) and maybe the scythe
zipang cooler on the amd x2 3800 processor which is on the asus a8n32-sli
motherboard.

Question about the cooling:

1. What is the best cpu cooler for the antec 1200 case (relating to airflow
?)

I am worried about: airflow obstruction of big cpu coolers.
I am worried about: airflow disruption because of cooling fans.
I am worried about: electronics around cpu not being cooled.
I am worried about: top down coolers as well... maybe they just blow hot air
towards electronics ? though "they" say this is good... blowing cool air
towards electronics around cpu is good too.
I am worried about: little heatsinks with big fans... what if fan dies ?
would be nice if heatsink is big enough for passive cooling and airflow via
case... (zipang kinda sux without fan cooling it seems ;))

However the antec 1200 case has: two rear case fans... one top case fan.

So I have a little dilemma:

Maybe it's better to have a cpu cooler which blows away hot air towards the
exit/exhausts ?

But maybe this would be bad for the electronics on the motherboard... they
might not be cooled enough.

I am especially worried about the motherboard. Two motherboards have already
died probably because of overheat.

So I am mostly looking for best motherboard cooling solution. !!!

So best question is:

2. What is the best motherboard cooling solution ?

I think this comes down too:

Which cpu cooler is best to cool the motherboard as well ? ;)

Or are there maybe even special motherboard cooling solutions ?

I do have passive heatsinks on motherboard, maybe this was a bad choice.

However I do not know what caused the failures... maybe it's near the gpu
cards which can get quite hot it seems.

Some more questions:

3. Will the Scythe Zipang fit on the asus a8n32-sli motherboard ?

Reviews are good about the zipang... it's a top down cooler which means it
blows cool air towards the motherboard which is good for cooling the
electronics on it. But will it fit on the motherboard ? It's quite big.

Any mounting issue's ? For me it's probably no problem to take the
motherboard out of the case... I have to do that anyway... So mounting
outside case should be no problem (?)

4. In which direction do the xfx nvidia 7900 gtx fans blow air ?

Do they blow air towards their chips ? Which would be in the
case-up-direction ?

Or do they blow air downwards away from their chips ? Which would be in the
case-down-direction ?

I ask this because I will have to place the seasonic s12 power supply
up-side down on the bottom.

Therefore I wonder how the airflow will be effected ?

Will the power fan and the bottom gtx fan work against each other ?

Or will they work nicely in tendem... gtx expelling heat to power supply ?

Maybe this is not a problem... but maybe it is a problem ?

At least they should both be able to suck in air side-ways.

The antec 1200 is slightly bigger than my current case but not much so
that's ok.

This mostly covers the questions I have.

Bye,
Skybuck.
 
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S

Skybuck Flying

I just had another idea:

Rounded serial ata ide cables for any serial ide devices like disk drive or
dvd drive.

This will probably help a bit... it might also make it more easy to bind
them to the sides or so... those original bigger/width cables are more
difficult to bend, so these roundes serial ata cables should be easier to
bend and such I hope..

Bye,
Skybuck.
 
S

Skybuck Flying

One possible way to be sure about the airflow directions and such is using a
smoke kit.

Would this be better than just a sigarette ? (I don't smoke though :))

Will the smoke stick around inside the components ? Hmm.

Bye,
Skybuck.
 
S

Skybuck Flying

Answer to question 4:

X-bit labs has some information about the cooling system of the 7900 gtx
card.

According to that website, the cooling system is very simaliar to the 7800
gtx/quadro:

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/video/display/geforce7800gtx512_4.html#sect0

Indeed the pictures look similiar.

In short the air flow works as follows:

1. Air is sucked into the card via the fan.

2. The air is blown downwards towards the gpu area.

3. The air is also split so it goes towards the heatsinks which are on
either side of the card.

Which would be left/rear and right/front.

The hot air near the rear is blown out of the case through the cards vents.
The hot air near the front is blown back into the case near where the
harddisks would be.

So maybe 50 procent of this hot air ends up near the harddisks.

Then it's guessing work... maybe some of it... is re-sucked into the fan...
and maybe some of it passes across the motherboard's chips.

Since these gpu's can become quite hot... this could be pretty hot air... I
have no clue how hot that air really is.

Anyway this could be a problem when there is a power supply under the
card... which is trying to suck the same air into it's power housing.

So these two fans... would definetly be working against each other (?).

Or maybe they help each other suck air in from the side.

Well fortunately I have a Seasonic S12 600 watt power supply which is very
efficient and requires only a modest ammount of airflow.

People with high air flow power supplies might be screwed hehe.

However I must warn myself too... not to get all smiley...

The FAN of the 7900 gtx spins at 1000 RPM mostly the site said.

And ofcourse RPM is no good indication of actually air moved.

I do know that the fan of the seasonic s12 is very advanced and can move
lots of air with slow spinning blades.

So the real question is:

How much air do both fans move.... could they really cancel each other out ?

This is stuff for air experts ;) :) with the right equipment and facilities
:)

I can only guess at it... or maybe there is some air simulation software to
be found somewhere ;) :)

That would be cool.

Then I only need the air flow specifications of both fan blades... at
different rpm's... and then I still need to know the actual rpm's during
active duty...

And then there is now telling how it will all react....

When I start gaming the gpu fans will ofcourse start spinning more
actively....

What will happen then ?

Maybe the power fan blades will start spinning harder as well to
compensate...

This could start making more noise... because I know the seasonic s12 fan
can make some noise when it starts spinning harder...

I would not want that...

Kinda sux.

I might have to replace the power supply something I rather not do...

On the other hand I might replace the fricking cards lol... not really
ofcourse.. those ****ing expensive and ofcourse probably sold out
everywhere.. except on e-bay...

Anyway... I'll just have to hope for the best I guess... fingers crossed.

Bye,
Skybuck.
 
S

Skybuck Flying

Answer to question 2:

The best cooling solution for the motherboard would probably be a special
fan mounted inside the case... near the motherboard... which simply blows
cool air over the motherboard.

However the motherboard is quite large... one fan would not be enough.

There would have to be multiple fans... all blowing nicely cool air over the
motherboard.

Cables would have to be nicely tucked away.

I actually experimented with placing a loose fan inside the case to see what
would happen.

It worked very well... unfortunately the fan was waaay too noise at 12 volt
(only connector left).

And ofcourse having a loose fan in the case is way too risky for my taste.

Maybe this is a nice idea for future cases:

Add extra mounting points for fans inside the case itself to blow cool air
over the motherboard ! ;)

Bye,
Skybuck.
 
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S

Skybuck Flying

Dear Google,

Please add filtering options to your newgroup software.

I would like to add my ban list to google so the next time my hardware has
failed and me must switch to different computer and using your terrific
google service I do not have to be confronted with people like SteveH.

I wish to remove people like SteveH from my google viewing experience.

Bye,
Skybuck.
 
S

Skybuck Flying

GMAN said:

I did consider it... I would still like to consider it... based on a good
review or so...

However the people at silentpcreview forum are not enthousiastic about it:

http://www.silentpcreview.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=48924

Here are some snippets from the forum and their oppinions:

One person writes:

"
Looks alot like the previous versions, although the base seems to be made of
aluminum or possibly nickel plated copper? Still uses push-pins. :(

I'm very much looking forward to see a review from SPCR.
I honestly can't see Scythes reasoning behind the push-pin mounting method.
That is one of the things I would have liked to see in this "2" version.
"

It's strange the person seems to contradict himself... first he seems to
complain about the push-pin system... then after that he writes he would
still like to see it in version 2 ? Strange...

Another person writes:

".. And you can't use Bolt-thru kit anymore. Damn Scythe. They made
improvements but not the most essential one..."

I have no idea what a Bolt-thru kit is ?

Another person writes:

"
The original Ninja is better than any of its successors, for two main
reasons: better (more secure) mounting, and better conduction between the
base and the heat pipes.

Fortunately there are now several choices highly competitive with the
original Ninja, including Xigmatek and the HR-01+ to name just two.
"

Another person writes:

"
if they had spent have an hour here (a largely pro ninja place) they would
have lernt that they only needed to make a few changes.
1: Bolt through mounting!!!! I cannot believe they are still sticking with
push pins. This will clearly hurt sales.
2: improve the way the heatpipes are held onto the base (ie: solder them). I
cant see any evidence from any pics that they've done this.
3: Space out the heatpipes more like the Cu ninja rather than the rev.b
which were far too close together to be effective. This they have done,
thank you scythe.
4: Include a slipstream fan. We'll wait and see on this.

There, i just designed a ninja 2 that will in all likelyhood beat their
version in real world tests.
"

Another person writes:

"
I think the slots were there originally to allow you to use screwdriver to
mount the thing.
and by removing them, you now essentially have to mount the heat sink
outside the case, otherwise it'll be near impossible to properly push those
pins in.
"

So apperently these people are mostly worried about the mounting system:

It's not good enough ?

It might effect the cooling ?

I do not understand the mounting system that they are complaining about ?

Would I be subjected to the same mounting system for socket 939 ?

Or does the ninja 2 come with an extra mounting system for am2 sockets which
they are complaining about ?

Bye,
Skybuck.
 
S

SteveH

Skybuck said:
Dear Google,

Please add filtering options to your newgroup software.

I would like to add my ban list to google so the next time my
hardware has failed and me must switch to different computer and
using your terrific google service I do not have to be confronted
with people like SteveH.
I wish to remove people like SteveH from my google viewing experience.

Bye,
Skybuck.

Dear Wanker,

Consider me gone - you've now joined the other idiots in my killfile.
 
S

Skybuck Flying

Thanks for the links.

(After moving my outlook express file disk image to my older computer I can
finally post messages again and save them in the archives in case I want to
read them again later on. Getting outlook express setup was kinda a hassle I
hope future versions make it easier to move the contents to other
computers.)

My thoughts on the water cooling solutions:

1. Replacing gpu heatsinks adds extra costs.
2. Replacing cpu heatsinks adds extra costs.
3. Sometimes the case does not allow a device to be placed on top.
4. The device could fall off.
5. Moving/working on the case becomes problematic.
6. Tubes sticking out of the case could get stuck when moving case.
7. There is no de-installation tutorial.
8. Would be nice if it could auto de-install itself by pumping out the water
back into the bottle or something.
9. Where to get the distiled water ?
10. Multiple colors in the water without colors mixing together could be
cool.
11. The plugs on the tubes don't look too strong... somebody could
accidently pull the tube... and then splatter ?!
12. It's interesting to see the little fan placed on the mosfet.
Apperently the mosfet is a very important part and needs to be cooled ?
I think I tested the little bugger/fan some time ago I think it was
noisy but not sure,
I would have to re-test that. This would be nasty if that little bugger
makes hellish noise.
If not then I am starting to wondering if asus claims that it disrupt
airflow is true...
maybe I should have used it with air cooling anyway...
13. Since the scythe zipang air cooler is top down it might cool the mosfet
too. This would make the zipang a better choice then the water
cooling solution.
Also the zipang might achieve 10 degree's cpu drop as well... which
gives the water cooling solution
for the cpu almost no adventage... since the water cooling solution
needs a fan too.
Actually with air cooling one might even be able to mount a fanless
heatsink... (?)

14. The manual for mounting the cooling solution for gpu was way too short.
It should start with showing how to de-mun the gtx 7900. And then it
should have more steps to show how to mount it etc.
15. It seems rather precision work such a tube bridge... what if it's a few
millimeters too short or whatever... then it might not fit into the
motherboard properly... also motherboards have different pci-e layouts...
can the bridge be extended across multiple slots ? maybe I missed it
in the manual... but one wonders... that manual is only one page ?

16. I applaud corsair for putting interesting documents on their website...
It was very interesting to read how their memory chips are actually
cooled. Then suddenly it mentions some kind of 3-fan solution... that part
was a bit weird.. apperently it's an extra device to cool memory ?.

17. I haven't seen a manual yet how to combine the cpu and gpu water cooling
solutions. Maybe one document explaining both might be nice.

18. The green is kinda getting old... seen some people with it... also green
looks alien like... Maybe I want other color... like red...
to make it look like blood is flowing through it... or maybe blue like it
looks like a cooling solution... I already mentioned the multiple
color idea... maybe that would be ultra cool =D Like a rainbow of colors
in the tubes.

19. Biggest drawback is probably the risk of leaks and damaging other
components or getting everything messy.

20. Reduced airflow could be bad for all other components which are not
water cooled.

21. The tubes themselfes could start to give off heat inside the case...
making the whole solution less effective.

22. The tubes themselfes could start to obstruct the remaining airflow
further reducing the solution's effectiveness.

23. Instead of dust in the case because of airflow... water might now end up
in the case which is worse...

24. Electrocution danger becomes more real with liquid substances in case
which could become conductive through solvents from pcb's etc.

25. Tubes would have to be tucked away behind the case.. which makes the
green stuff pretty irrelevant... nothing to look at it. Becomes even more
risky with leaks... maybe tubes hard to bend or might even break.

This list could probably go on and on and on and on and on.

I think 25 reasons are not enough reasons for now not to switch to water
cooling.

Maybe in the future... for now I like to give air cooling another chance/try
:)

Bye,
Skybuck.

Thanks and stay cool ! =D
 
S

Skybuck Flying

Some further questions/issue's which popped into my mind:

1. It seems the antec 1200 case has many fans.

1.1 How will these fans receive their power ? Probably via power supply, in
other words,
How many power connectors are needed ? Do I need extra's ?

1.2 How many of these fans can be connected to the motherboard for
monitoring purposes ?
This will probably be a little issue for the asus a8n32-sli...
It doesn't have that many connections.

To evaluate if it's truely a better airflow case I need to know the
following as well:

2. How much will the airflow be when these fans are spinning at their lowest
settings ?

Will it truely be better/more than my current case or is it a scam ?

So to sum up:

2.1 What is the airflow for the input fans at their lowest setting ?

2.2 What is the airflow for the output fans at their lowest setting ?

Bye,
Skybuck.
 
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S

Skybuck Flying

Placing the power supply at the bottom has some adventages and some
disadventages:

I saw somebody mention:

1. The cables can lay on the ground of the case.... instead of hanging
around.

I myself think the following:

2. If the cables have to go up... then gravity is going to have it's way
with them.

Maybe cables could get unplugged... or get damaged because gravity pulling
them down.

Those cables can get pretty heavy ya know... ;)

Especially the big power cables.

Bye,
Skybuck.
 
S

Skybuck Flying

I saw somebody mention another worrieing little bitty titty thingy:

26. Graphics cards bend because of gravity and the weight of the water
cooler ? WOW. Sounds nasty ! ;)

Bye,
Skybuck.
 
S

Skybuck Flying

This dude reversed his harddisks:

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=126395&page=9

At first glance it looks pretty smart... but let's examine it a bit closer:

The power connector of the harddisk gets very hot.

Now the fans of the case are blowing directly against it... immediatly
cooling it down.

However... maybe it's stupid, maybe it's dumb.

Because then the hot air from the power connector will go across the rest of
the harddisk's electronics.

If those harddisk electronics get to hot the whole harddisk might fail.

Maybe it's better to let the cool air first cool down the most important
part of the harddisk which is the electronics..
and only later let it pass over the power connector which is hot...

Then when the hot air goes through the rest of the case it can cool
down/spread out some more.

Looking at an ibm harddisk it's layout is as follows:

power connector, electronics, disc <- cold air should come from here me
thinks ;)

Bye,
Skybuck.
 
S

Skybuck Flying

Yeah,

That brings me to another consideration:

"Resonance"

It's when things start to vibrate.

Especially when cases are right next to you the user...
And especially when the case is on a wooden table...
resonance can become quite annoying and disturbing.

I already know that I definetly do not want a case with side fans in the
side panels, I believe/know that's bad... it makes the whole case vibrate...
especially when the side panels are shakey/wobbly... this is then enhanced
by the wooden table. There should also be no internal parts touching the
side panels... because that can make them vibrate as well.

However what about so called "top down" coolers like the Scythe Zipang cpu
cooler.

This particular cooler blows cool air down onto the motherboard.

Now me wonders... will this make the motherboard vibrate/resonate ?

Now that I think about it... it probably will make the motherboard
vibrate...

The cooler is trying to get away from the motherboard... by pushing air
towards it... however it's stuck... and therefore they are fighting each
other... could be bad for sound issue's...

So I am getting doubts about "top down" coolers.

However... there are plenty of other fans in the case... so maybe the case
starts resonating a little bit anyway...

But that will probably mostly be from front to back... and not necessarily
side ways...

So maybe I should go with a cpu cooler which blows/sucks side ways so to
speak... nicely along the motherboard.

Hmmmm.

Bye,
Skybuck.
 
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S

Skybuck Flying

GMAN said:
Thats the kicker, the fans in the Antec cases are Molex connectors. They
have
a 3 way low/medium/high switch on them. I set them all on low and they
move
tons of air. Very quiet. The only noise i see from my fans in my Antec 900
case are from the hard drives.

That's an important detail... I didn't know that.

Well soon I will find out... I will probably order lots of stuff today.

http://www.hardwarecanucks.
com/forum/cases/7835-antec-1200-900-comparison-photos.html




You have 0 airflow in the bottom half of your case that you have now,
hence
the crappy lockups from heat building up around you SLI'd video cards. And
the
small cpu heatsink and fan you have now.

I think I do have some airflow there... since I sealed off the front/side
holes near the hd's... there are two little fans blowing cool air into it ;)
which will go to the back of the graphics cards...

Yeah the new zipang cool will be huge and probably cool that part of the
motherboard pretty well which will include the mosfets as well ;)

Bye,
Skybuck.
 
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