Computer Question/Trouble Shooting -Need 2nd Opinion. Help me help the needy.

[Ron Cliborn]

I do volunteer work for people of little means. They get a computer
for free or reduced cost - usually donated computers, and I help the
people if something goes wrong. I'm no computer guru, but I know a
little (and I can learn the rest!), I know a little about them.

I went to a persons house yesterday who had a computer problem. They
said their child was running a Norton (Uhh!) product on the computer
and it said "something" about a worm. They didn't know what it said,
or what kind of worm, or even if there was a worm for sure. They
followed Norton's instructions and couldn't fix said worm. Reboot.
At some point either before or after the reboot, a BSOD occurs.
Message UNKNOWN. Then occasionally an error message comes up saying
OS Not found.

Now the computer boots very sluggishly. It starts off trying to load
drivers for the network card and this takes about 5-10 min. Then I
see the E-Machine logo then a black screen. Then it just hangs. So I
kept trying to reboot. I unplugged the cable modem and this seemed to
increase the speed to the E-Machine logo. But still it hangs.
Occasionally I'll get the "OS Not Found" error message. After doing
this about 3times I notice 2 odd things:

1.) The hard drive would spin up, I'd hear a click and it would spin
down and then start over again. Almost as if the drive had lost
power.
I know this because I knocked off a power cable in ANOTHER system and
got the same noise.

2.) Even though the system is powered up, for several minutes I get
the default message that shows on the monitor when the monitor is
powered up but the Computer proper is turned off. After several
minutes this goes away.


After messing with it for about an hour I finally got it to recognize
the boot CD that came with the system. I could 1) Reinstall or 2)
Boot to command prompt. I chose 2 and came out in A:\. I don't know
what A:\ is but it had the basic DOS commands similar to a boot disk.
( NOTE: There is a floppy drive on the computer, but I made sure there
was no disk in the drive at ANY POINT.) I also found an S:\ which was
the CD. C: - No where to be found. NO C DRIVE AT ALL.
I tried to reboot and see if I could chose option 1 to see if it would
install to C: or it C: was in fact not access bile., BUT I could never
get back to that option. The system kept hanging.

So, I broke the seal and opened the case to make sure the cables were
tight. They were. An incidental finding was that the inside of the
computer was caked (literally) with dust.

I'm not familiar with the damage worms can do. I don't know if they
can fry a HD or not. So the following is the conclusions I came up
with:

1.) Hard Drive Shot - Either by worm or just ran out of MTBF.
2.) Maybe a loss of a FAT on the drive.

Damn. As I said I am no genius. That is about the best I can trouble
shoot. I was thinking of taking the HD out and putting it in a known
good system, or taking a known good HD from one of my systems and
putting in there system.


If you have suggestions or advice please help me out.
Flames telling me that those of lower social economic status should
not have computers will be ignored.
I don't have a lot of money to give these folks, but I try to help out
with what little I do know of computers.
The computer owner is a Single Mother of two grade school girls and
can't afford to buy a new computer so I'm doing all I can to help her
fix the one she has.

Thanks
Ron

 

[Ed Medlin]

I do volunteer work for people of little means. They get a computer
for free or reduced cost - usually donated computers, and I help the
people if something goes wrong. I'm no computer guru, but I know a
little (and I can learn the rest!), I know a little about them.

I went to a persons house yesterday who had a computer problem. They
said their child was running a Norton (Uhh!) product on the computer
and it said "something" about a worm. They didn't know what it said,
or what kind of worm, or even if there was a worm for sure. They
followed Norton's instructions and couldn't fix said worm. Reboot.
At some point either before or after the reboot, a BSOD occurs.
Message UNKNOWN. Then occasionally an error message comes up saying
OS Not found.

Now the computer boots very sluggishly. It starts off trying to load
drivers for the network card and this takes about 5-10 min. Then I
see the E-Machine logo then a black screen. Then it just hangs. So I
kept trying to reboot. I unplugged the cable modem and this seemed to
increase the speed to the E-Machine logo. But still it hangs.
Occasionally I'll get the "OS Not Found" error message. After doing
this about 3times I notice 2 odd things:

1.) The hard drive would spin up, I'd hear a click and it would spin
down and then start over again. Almost as if the drive had lost
power.
I know this because I knocked off a power cable in ANOTHER system and
got the same noise.

2.) Even though the system is powered up, for several minutes I get
the default message that shows on the monitor when the monitor is
powered up but the Computer proper is turned off. After several
minutes this goes away.


After messing with it for about an hour I finally got it to recognize
the boot CD that came with the system. I could 1) Reinstall or 2)
Boot to command prompt. I chose 2 and came out in A:\. I don't know
what A:\ is but it had the basic DOS commands similar to a boot disk.
( NOTE: There is a floppy drive on the computer, but I made sure there
was no disk in the drive at ANY POINT.) I also found an S:\ which was
the CD. C: - No where to be found. NO C DRIVE AT ALL.
I tried to reboot and see if I could chose option 1 to see if it would
install to C: or it C: was in fact not access bile., BUT I could never
get back to that option. The system kept hanging.

So, I broke the seal and opened the case to make sure the cables were
tight. They were. An incidental finding was that the inside of the
computer was caked (literally) with dust.

I'm not familiar with the damage worms can do. I don't know if they
can fry a HD or not. So the following is the conclusions I came up
with:

1.) Hard Drive Shot - Either by worm or just ran out of MTBF.
2.) Maybe a loss of a FAT on the drive.

Damn. As I said I am no genius. That is about the best I can trouble
shoot. I was thinking of taking the HD out and putting it in a known
good system, or taking a known good HD from one of my systems and
putting in there system.


If you have suggestions or advice please help me out.
Flames telling me that those of lower social economic status should
not have computers will be ignored.
I don't have a lot of money to give these folks, but I try to help out
with what little I do know of computers.
The computer owner is a Single Mother of two grade school girls and
can't afford to buy a new computer so I'm doing all I can to help her
fix the one she has.

Thanks
Ron

The 'click' and HDD spin down is commonly called the "click of death". I
think the first thing I would do is to try another hard drive. All the
symtoms you have mentioned are indicative of a failed/failing HDD.
If you plan on servicing the machine in the future, tell them NOT to use
Norton AV or Norton Utilities. The only decent Norton product I have used in
several years was Ghost, but over the last few years other products have
been released that do as well or better than Ghost. Download and install AVG
Free and set it to auto update and they will be fine. It works as good as
most pay AV programs and doesn't hog system resources.
I take in old computers once in awhile and get them up and going and
usually donate them to some of our small and low funded schools. Computer
skills are very important and a must for kids to learn in today's world.


Ed

 

[Dean G.]

I went to a persons house yesterday who had a computer problem. They
said their child was running a Norton (Uhh!) product on the computer
and it said "something" about a worm. They didn't know what it said,
or what kind of worm, or even if there was a worm for sure. They
followed Norton's instructions and couldn't fix said worm. Reboot.
At some point either before or after the reboot, a BSOD occurs.
Message UNKNOWN. Then occasionally an error message comes up saying
OS Not found.

Now the computer boots very sluggishly. It starts off trying to load
drivers for the network card and this takes about 5-10 min. Then I
see the E-Machine logo then a black screen. Then it just hangs. So I
kept trying to reboot. I unplugged the cable modem and this seemed to
increase the speed to the E-Machine logo. But still it hangs.
Occasionally I'll get the "OS Not Found" error message. After doing
this about 3times I notice 2 odd things:

1.) The hard drive would spin up, I'd hear a click and it would spin
down and then start over again. Almost as if the drive had lost
power.
I know this because I knocked off a power cable in ANOTHER system and
got the same noise.

2.) Even though the system is powered up, for several minutes I get
the default message that shows on the monitor when the monitor is
powered up but the Computer proper is turned off. After several
minutes this goes away.

After messing with it for about an hour I finally got it to recognize
the boot CD that came with the system. I could 1) Reinstall or 2)
Boot to command prompt. I chose 2 and came out in A:\. I don't know
what A:\ is but it had the basic DOS commands similar to a boot disk.
( NOTE: There is a floppy drive on the computer, but I made sure there
was no disk in the drive at ANY POINT.) I also found an S:\ which was
the CD. C: - No where to be found. NO C DRIVE AT ALL.
I tried to reboot and see if I could chose option 1 to see if it would
install to C: or it C: was in fact not access bile., BUT I could never
get back to that option. The system kept hanging.

So, I broke the seal and opened the case to make sure the cables were
tight. They were. An incidental finding was that the inside of the
computer was caked (literally) with dust.

I'm not familiar with the damage worms can do. I don't know if they
can fry a HD or not. So the following is the conclusions I came up
with:

1.) Hard Drive Shot - Either by worm or just ran out of MTBF.
2.) Maybe a loss of a FAT on the drive.

Even if the FAT (file allocation table) is lost, the drive should
still be visible, so I'd guess 1 is more likely. However, the first
thing I would do is clear the CMOS, or at least go into the BIOS and
see if the hard drive is recognized there. If not, you may be able to
simply set it to auto-detect and see if it finds anything. If the
drive is not fried, something should show up here. Even if it is
fried, something may show up here.

The clicking noise you mention is often a sign of impending drive
failure, so combined with the other info, I do believe the drive is
either dead or not long for this world at best. Occasionally a simply
reformat and surface scan will fix problems, but even if it does, it
may just be a temporary fix. Or you may get lucky and it will work for
a long while.

Finally, Norton is better than nothing.

Dean G.

 

[Ron Cliborn]

Ed,

Thanks much. I had a feeling it was the HD.
Appreciate the 2nd opinion.

Re Norton. I use to think Norton was the greatest thing since air.
Now? I'd fight someone trying to put it on my system.
It causes too many problems and you can forget removing it with out
reformatting your HD.

So you know where I'm coming from if you also help these people out.
I went to fix/attempt to fix the computer and ended up working on a
window and water heater. BUT, I'm not complaining....it is just a
different way of living then I am use to. I need all the bonus points
I can get to atone for all the bad I did in my misspent. ( Joking)

Again, thanks Ed.

Ron Cliborn

 

[Ron Cliborn]

Dean,
Thank you for replying with your helpful advice.
Oddly enough I couldn't seem to get into the bios.
The computer did have some kind of BOOT SYSTEM UTILITY that I was
occasionally able to get into. It looked like a very basic bios with
just being able to set boot sequence. It had some options I'd never
seen before like PXP (or something like it - I left my notes at the
person's home.
However, resetting the CMOS and formatting the drive seem like a good
idea. I think we all agree the drive is shot, but on the off
chance....I'd be willing to try to bring it back to life to see if I
could and on the off chance it would continue working.

Thanks again Dean. Both myself and the family I'm doing this for thank
both you and Ed.

R o N C L I b O r N

 

[Frank McCoy]

In alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt Ron Cliborn

Ed,

Thanks much. I had a feeling it was the HD.
Appreciate the 2nd opinion.

Re Norton. I use to think Norton was the greatest thing since air.
Now? I'd fight someone trying to put it on my system.
It causes too many problems and you can forget removing it with out
reformatting your HD.

I could give you instructions, having had to remove Norton about a dozen
times. Their software removal tool, (Like that from ATI) sucks; but
with a few simple rules *all* of Norton does come off. You just have to
know where to look and what to remove. Simple logic does it.

Of course, removing it that completely means *all* of Norton is gone and
any Symantec developed programs as well; so if you want any of them, you
have to do a full install and then update all over again ... just like
you'd do after a reformat of the hard-drive, but without effecting other
programs.

It's just a pain. They really, really *really* need a better tool.
I suppose I could write one myself; but why should I do a job for them
when nobody is paying me for it? And, if I did, somebody else would
steal the thing and make lots of money off my work. ;-{

 

[Ron Cliborn]

I could give you instructions, having had to remove Norton about a dozen
times. Their software removal tool, (Like that from ATI) sucks; but
with a few simple rules *all* of Norton does come off. You just have to
know where to look and what to remove. Simple logic does it.

Yes, I would appreciate some instructions.
I tried the Removal tool with no luck.
Then I erased everything I could.
After that I went through the Registry and did a search for
NORTON, SYMANTECT(SP), and whatever else I could think of.
And after I got done, the system was pretty unbalanced and had to be
reinstalled.
So spill it.

Thanks
ERIC

 

[Frank McCoy]

In alt.comp.hardware.pc-homebuilt Ron Cliborn

Yes, I would appreciate some instructions.
I tried the Removal tool with no luck.
Then I erased everything I could.
After that I went through the Registry and did a search for
NORTON, SYMANTECT(SP), and whatever else I could think of.

Well, you got that part right, about the registry.
Anything with Norton or Symantec you delete.
Still, before doing that, The first thing I'd do is run their "removal
tool" by doing an uninstall, even though it don't work worth crap.
Next I'd go to the Symantec Website and download two files:
"SYMCLN.EXE" and their registration-removal-tool and run both before
tackling the registry; as they'll remove lots of junk before you have
to.

Next I'd back up the registry, just in case.
THEN I'd go through the registry, do a "Find" for both "Symantec",
"Norton" and damned near anything with "SYM" in it; though that last is
getting a bit extreme; deleting any such you find. If you find an entry
containing "Symantec" or "Norton" or a subdirectory named such in any
CLSID, then delete the whole numbered key, not just the InprocServer32,
or wherever you find it.

For example:
HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\CLSID\{01113300-3e00-11d2-8470-0060089874ed}\InprocServer32
Has the default REG_SZ data:
C:\Program Files\Symantec Technical Support\controls\tgctlcm.dll
So you delete the whole KEY and all sub-keys for:
HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\CLSID\{01113300-3e00-11d2-8470-0060089874ed}

Do the same thing with other key-types like Component Categories,
Products, and similar long-numbered keys, wherever you find either
Norton or Symantec referenced.

It takes a while, but: The idea is to remove Norton and Symanted
*completely*
Then reboot; and hopefully you can then delete what remains or Norton
and Symantec on your drive.

What gets you, besides the registry, is all the other places Symantec
puts their programs throughout the machine.
Delete the entire directory of *any* of the following found on your
machine:

There are the obvious ones:
C:\Program Files\Symantec
C:\Program Files\Symantec Support
C:\Program Files\Norton SystemWorks

Then the less obvious:
C:\Program Files\Common Files\Symantec Shared
C:\WINDOWS\All Users\Application Data\Symantec (If there)
C:\WINDOWS\Application Data\Symantec (If there)
C:\WINDOWS\Start Menu\Programs\Norton SystemWorks
C:\WINDOWS\Start Menu\Norton SystemWorks (shortcut)

Then the harder ones:
Go into C:\Documents and Settings, and for *every user* listed there,
including you, Administrator, Guest, etc., go into the subdirectory,
find the hidden directory "Application Data" and delete the Symantec
subdirectory.

For me, for example, logged in as "Frank"; that would be:
C:\Documents and Settings\Frank\Application Data\Symantec
Replace "Frank" with "Administrator", "All Users", "All Users.WINDOWS",
etc., in the "Documents and Settings" directory, and remove all
subdirectories labeled "Symantec" from them.
(Some won't have such. Just remove those you find.)

A lot of those files *won't* remove; because Norton is using them.
However, once you remove the entries from the registry and also remove
all the files you CAN remove, then reboot; and Voila! Now you *can*
remove the files you couldn't before! (Because they're no longer in
use.)

And after I got done, the system was pretty unbalanced and had to be
reinstalled.
So spill it.

Did. It's a pain; but possible.
I've had to do it about every time Norton crashes and won't uninstall.