computer keeps crashing

[E.T.]

Hello everyone, couple months back I posted some threads about my
computer that seems to crash and reboot only when I ran computer
games. Well I assumed it was a bad video card and had it returned to
newegg.com for a replacement. 2 weeks later I installed the same but
newer video card and to no avail.....the damm thing keeps crashing
while playing compter games. Later I did a full clean install of
windows xp....and still, no avail. Now when I run spybot.1.4 or my
virus scanner "AVast virus scanner", both applications seem to stop
after about 60% of scanning ..no crashing..just mysteriously stopping
and returning back to the desktop. I updated all drivers on the
motherboard and uninstalled/reinstalled new drivers for video card.
This is very strange since this computer was working fine for 2.5
months before the symtoms started occuring. I am now begining to think
that it is
1. a overheating CPU
2.a failing CPU
3. a faulty motherboard problem
4. a memory problem
5. a power supply problem
6. a driver problem

My comp specs are:

intel 3.8 GHz pentium 4
Foxconn P9657AA motherboard
two 80 Gig SATA II hard drives
Sapphire Radeon X1950XT 256mb
Seasonic 650watt ps
memorex dvdr/cdr burner
pair of kingston dual channel DDR2 memory (with heat sinks)
WinXp home sp2

ran memtest on memory for 8 hours and no errors were reported. I also
ran "fox one" and noticed that cpu temp went up to 57C when playing
"call of duty2" Is this somewhat high? I am doubting its the Power
supply since I payed 200 bucks for a top of the line power supply by
Seasonic. (but still, I cant verify this simply by brand name and
price.....How do you test PS's?) I am begining to gravitate towards a
overheating/ failing CPU or a failing motherboard component.
Any comments?

Ed

 

[sillyputty]

Hello everyone, couple months back I posted some threads about my
computer that seems to crash and reboot only when I ran computer
games.

[snip]

57C is definitely too hot - the CPU is probably reaching thermal
shutdown.

 

[Ed M.]

Hello everyone, couple months back I posted some threads about my
computer that seems to crash and reboot only when I ran computer
games.

[snip]

57C is definitely too hot - the CPU is probably reaching thermal
shutdown.

I hate to disagree with you, but for a P4, 57C is really pretty good and
possibly below the average under stress. The P4s usually won't start any
thermal throttling until well over 70C. I can get my Core 2 Duo pretty close
to 50C with Orthos or other CPU stressing utilities and it is liquid cooled,
so a P4 at 57C is not bad at all. If I were the OP, I would try running with
just one stick of memory at a time and see if one of them is causing his
problems. I have seen memory pass memtest and still have issues within the
OS.

Ed

 

[w_tom]

Your previous responses about temperature 'problems' were bogus.
Many just want to fix the only thing they understand. Temperature is
a diagnostic tool. Best way that memtst86 will report useful facts is
when the computer is in a 100 degree F room, or memory and related
semiconductors are heated by a hairdryer on highest heat settings.
Too many want to add more fans to cure a symptoms. Any hardware that
fails in a 100 degree F room with only one chassis fan is somehow
defective.

If your household doors start sticking, then do you plane all
doors? Or do you first discover why that problem exists? Too many
want to fix a crumbling foundation by planing doors. You have a same
situation. The power supply 'system' (which is more than one Seasonic
supply) could be crumbling. In two minutes, you either know it is OR
you have numbers to post here for useful answers. No more "it could
be this or could be that" responses. IOW do as recommended on CSI -
'follow the evidence'. Two minute procedure to accomplish that is
"When your computer dies without warning....." starting 6 Feb 2007 in
the newsgroup alt.windows-xp at:
http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh

In your case, most important numbers are from any one yellow,
orange, red, and purple wire when machine first starts and, even
better, when executing a game. Remember, it is a system. Seasonic is
only one component in that system. There is no other way so
inexpensive to confirm that system.

What did the video card diagnostic report? Or is that manufacturer
less responsible - does not provide a hardware diagnostic that
executes without Windows? Again, heat that video card when executing
the diagnostic. Never just wildly replace a part only because it
'might' be the problem. Nothing in your system is 'known good' until
your diagnostic procedure confirms it as so. Introduced are two
important tools - heat and the multimeter. Neither recommendation is
optional. Do both.

 

[JAD]

Hello everyone, couple months back I posted some threads about my
computer that seems to crash and reboot only when I ran computer
games.

hard drive, video, DirectX/glide, and power, these are the most prominent sources of
problems when running 3d games.
Bios 'video enhancements' can also cause this.


Well I assumed it was a bad video card and had it returned to

 

[sillyputty]

I hate to disagree with you, but for a P4, 57C is really pretty good and
possibly below the average under stress. The P4s usually won't start any
thermal throttling until well over 70C. I can get my Core 2 Duo pretty close
to 50C with Orthos or other CPU stressing utilities and it is liquid cooled,
so a P4 at 57C is not bad at all.

Two things: You contradicted yourself. You claimed you can get your
CPU "close to 50C" using a CPU stressing program, that's probably
putting more stress on your CPU than any video game. There's a
significant difference between 50C and 57C (around 135F!). All the
water-cooling reviews I've read haven't produced more than a few
degrees lower than fan-cooled.

I run CPU-intensive video games and my AMD dual-core CPU temp has
never gone above 42-43C on a hot day. I would never run my CPU for any
period of time over 50C. I'd add more fans.

 

[JAD]

Two things: You contradicted yourself. You claimed you can get your
CPU "close to 50C" using a CPU stressing program, that's probably
putting more stress on your CPU than any video game. There's a

significant difference between 50C and 57C (around 135F!).

50c =122f 57c =134.xxx that would be 14degrees.... next to nothing.
50 being pretty darn good and 57 being on the high side of good


All the

 

[Ed M.]

Two things: You contradicted yourself. You claimed you can get your
CPU "close to 50C" using a CPU stressing program, that's probably
putting more stress on your CPU than any video game. There's a
significant difference between 50C and 57C (around 135F!). All the
water-cooling reviews I've read haven't produced more than a few
degrees lower than fan-cooled.

I run CPU-intensive video games and my AMD dual-core CPU temp has
never gone above 42-43C on a hot day. I would never run my CPU for any
period of time over 50C. I'd add more fans.

I didn't contradict anything. I was just using scenerios that only
indicate that his temps are well within normal specs for a P4. Personally, I
would like to keep my temps under 50C too if all things were perfect. Yes,
Orthos puts much more stress on a CPU than any game or program would. That
is the reason it is used to test components. The difference between 50C and
57C is insignifigant. A dozen or so degrees F if my quickly done
calculations are correct. Intel's own specs for most of the P4 family have
max operating temps in the 70C range so if his absolute maximum temperature
is around 57C that is not bad at all. A bit high for me, but still in an
area that will not cause lockups or crashes.
Comparing a P4 family processor to your AMDx2 is like apples and
oranges. The later P4s run very hot and upper 50s are not unusual at all. As
for liquid vs air cooling, there can be significant differences with a
proper liquid cooled setup. At stock speeds (2.4Ghz), my E6600 will idle in
the 26-28C area and max using Orthos in the low 40s. Overclocked to 3.6Ghz
my E6600 will idle around 30C and still only max out at 50-55C. I actually
run it now at 3.4Ghz with max temps in the mid 40s. Any game/simulator that
I run will never reach those temperatures. With stock air cooling you could
add 10C to idle and at least 10-15C under stress. The only way to properly
compare cooling solutions is to use a standardized CPU stressing utility
like Orthos (which is used by many today) and not various games that may or
may not stress your system in the same way every time.

<BTW, even for an AMDx2, your temps are extremely good>

Ed

 

[E.T.]

I hate to disagree with you, but for a P4, 57C is really pretty good and
possibly below the average under stress. The P4s usually won't start any
thermal throttling until well over 70C. I can get my Core 2 Duo pretty close
to 50C with Orthos or other CPU stressing utilities and it is liquid cooled,
so a P4 at 57C is not bad at all. If I were the OP, I would try running with
just one stick of memory at a time and see if one of them is causing his
problems. I have seen memory pass memtest and still have issues within the
OS.

Ed

Is that possible? Can I run one stick of dual channel memory?

Ed

 

[JAD]

Is that possible? Can I run one stick of dual channel memory?

Ed

Yes, adjust bios correctly(most will auto detect)

 

[Ed M.]

Is that possible? Can I run one stick of dual channel memory?

Ed

Yes......Especially for diagnostics. Run only one stick for awhile and see
if your problem persists. Then run the other by itself. This can find a bad
stick of memory if you have one.

Ed

 

[grassgreen]

GUEST wrote
Hello everyone, couple months back I posted some threads about m
computer that seems to crash and reboot only when I ran compute
games. Well I assumed it was a bad video card and had it returne t
newegg.com for a replacement. 2 weeks later I installed the sam bu
newer video card and to no avail.....the damm thing keeps crashin
while playing compter games. Later I did a full clean install o
windows xp....and still, no avail. Now when I run spybot.1.4 or m
virus scanner "AVast virus scanner", both application seem to sto
after about 60% of scanning ..no crashing..just mysteriousl stoppin
and returning back to the desktop. I updated all drivers on th
motherboard and uninstalled/reinstalled new drivers for video card
This is very strange since this computer was working fine for 2.
months before the symtoms started occuring. I am now begining t thin
that it i
1. a overheating CP
2.a failing CP
3. a faulty motherboard proble
4. a memory proble
5. a power supply proble
6. a driver proble

My comp specs are

intel 3.8 GHz pentium
Foxconn P9657AA motherboar
two 80 Gig SATA II hard drive
Sapphire Radeon X1950XT 256m
Seasonic 650watt p
memorex dvdr/cdr burne
pair of kingston dual channel DDR2 memory (with heat sinks
WinXp home sp

ran memtest on memory for 8 hours and no errors were reported. als
ran "fox one" and noticed that cpu temp went up to 57 when playin
"call of duty2" Is this somewhat high? I am doubting it the Powe
supply since I payed 200 bucks for a top of the line power suppl b
Seasonic. (but still, I cant verify this simply by brand name an
price.....How do you test PS's?) I am begining to gravitate toward

overheating/ failing CPU or a failing motherboard component
Any comments

E

Hey I think there is something wrong with your cp
temperature , you should check your power supply and your cpu fan

 

[w_tom]

Yes......Especially for diagnostics. Run only one stick for awhile and see
if your problem persists. Then run the other by itself. This can find a bad
stick of memory if you have one.

Executing memory diagnostics in a 100 degree F room or while being
heated with a hairdryer on highest heat will find that defective
(intermittent) memory much faster and conclusively. If memory when
heated does not fail, then memory (and associated electronics) is just
fine. Heat is that powerful a diagnostic tool.

Recently performed this on a Dell. Video card would sometimes go
crazy. Rarely, but it happened. Put it in a near 100 degree room and
ran the Dell video diagnostics. Immediately identified was one and
only one defective memory location in video memory. This made easy
because Dell provided comprehensive hardware diagnostics. The same
error was not detected by diagnostics while in an air conditioned
room. Better than swapping memory is to execute a memory diagnostic
while electronics is at eleveated (normal) temperatures.

 

[Bob M]

Hello everyone, couple months back I posted some threads about my
computer that seems to crash and reboot only when I ran computer
games. Well I assumed it was a bad video card and had it returned to
newegg.com for a replacement. 2 weeks later I installed the same but
newer video card and to no avail.....the damm thing keeps crashing
while playing compter games. Later I did a full clean install of
windows xp....and still, no avail. Now when I run spybot.1.4 or my
virus scanner "AVast virus scanner", both applications seem to stop
after about 60% of scanning ..no crashing..just mysteriously stopping
and returning back to the desktop. I updated all drivers on the
motherboard and uninstalled/reinstalled new drivers for video card.
This is very strange since this computer was working fine for 2.5
months before the symtoms started occuring. I am now begining to think
that it is
1. a overheating CPU
2.a failing CPU
3. a faulty motherboard problem
4. a memory problem
5. a power supply problem
6. a driver problem

My comp specs are:

intel 3.8 GHz pentium 4
Foxconn P9657AA motherboard
two 80 Gig SATA II hard drives
Sapphire Radeon X1950XT 256mb
Seasonic 650watt ps
memorex dvdr/cdr burner
pair of kingston dual channel DDR2 memory (with heat sinks)
WinXp home sp2

ran memtest on memory for 8 hours and no errors were reported. I also
ran "fox one" and noticed that cpu temp went up to 57C when playing
"call of duty2" Is this somewhat high? I am doubting its the Power
supply since I payed 200 bucks for a top of the line power supply by
Seasonic. (but still, I cant verify this simply by brand name and
price.....How do you test PS's?) I am begining to gravitate towards a
overheating/ failing CPU or a failing motherboard component.
Any comments?

Ed

Go to the manufacturer's site for your hard drive and download their
HDD test program. Run it and see if your hard drive fails the tests. I
had a computer act the same way and I bought a new HDD and backed things
up. Within a month the original HDD failed. I'll bet you your HDD is
failing.

Bob

 

[sillyputty]

50c =122f 57c =134.xxx that would be 14degrees.... next to nothing.
50 being pretty darn good and 57 being on the high side of good

Tell me that you're not going to notice the difference between 80F and
94F (14 degrees); if you stepped into an 80F room from 94F outdoors,
the room is going to seem cool.

 

[JAD]

Tell me that you're not going to notice the difference between 80F and
94F (14 degrees); if you stepped into an 80F room from 94F outdoors,
the room is going to seem cool.

um... are 'you' strapped to the mainboard with a heatsink clamped to your head?

apples and oranges my friend.

 

[E.T.]

Ok folks, followed some of the advice in this group and tried
testing one at a time my 2 dual shared kingston hyperx DDR2 512mb mem
sticks. On stick#1 game application ran for like 2 hours without
bluescreening (disabled WinXp "restart" on error or crash) Also, both
applications (spybot1.4 & Avast antivirus) which seemed to
mysteriously stop running about 60% thru scans, finally finnished
their assesment with stick#1.
Stick#2 ran for about 3 hours before bluescreening. Applications
also finnished scans with this stick.
Also tried both sticks and followed "w_tom" advice on using a hair
dryer.(thanks tom, never even thought of it,but it makes sense)
pointed it at both sticks and ran "spybot1.4" and once again the
program stopped at about 60% scan. However....also ran cpu program
"fox one" and noticed that cpu was slowly rising from 48C to 58C. Im
assuming that the heat from the hair dryer was reflecting off of
motherboard and somewhat heated the cpu. It held at 58C for about 2
minutes and thats when "spybot1.4 failed at 60%
Since I couldnt tell whether it was the mem sticks or the cpu temp
that was causing the errors/bluescreens I downloaded a program called
"Stress Prime 2004" Ran the program for a FFT cpu only test and the
program detected a hardware failure at only 19 minutes. During this
test and time the cpu temps slowly rose from 48C to 58C. Id say that
it reached 58C at around 15 to16 minutes. Could this be a sign that
the cpu is not being cooled properly. I do have a thermaltake blue orb
II on it, but now Im begining to wonder if this cooler is sufficient.
Also....could a small layer of dust on the heatsink cooler make a
difference? Im assuming this since the computer ran for 2 months ok
then in June it started crashing only on gaming.

Ed

 

[Paul]

Ok folks, followed some of the advice in this group and tried
testing one at a time my 2 dual shared kingston hyperx DDR2 512mb mem
sticks. On stick#1 game application ran for like 2 hours without
bluescreening (disabled WinXp "restart" on error or crash) Also, both
applications (spybot1.4 & Avast antivirus) which seemed to
mysteriously stop running about 60% thru scans, finally finnished
their assesment with stick#1.
Stick#2 ran for about 3 hours before bluescreening. Applications
also finnished scans with this stick.
Also tried both sticks and followed "w_tom" advice on using a hair
dryer.(thanks tom, never even thought of it,but it makes sense)
pointed it at both sticks and ran "spybot1.4" and once again the
program stopped at about 60% scan. However....also ran cpu program
"fox one" and noticed that cpu was slowly rising from 48C to 58C. Im
assuming that the heat from the hair dryer was reflecting off of
motherboard and somewhat heated the cpu. It held at 58C for about 2
minutes and thats when "spybot1.4 failed at 60%
Since I couldnt tell whether it was the mem sticks or the cpu temp
that was causing the errors/bluescreens I downloaded a program called
"Stress Prime 2004" Ran the program for a FFT cpu only test and the
program detected a hardware failure at only 19 minutes. During this
test and time the cpu temps slowly rose from 48C to 58C. Id say that
it reached 58C at around 15 to16 minutes. Could this be a sign that
the cpu is not being cooled properly. I do have a thermaltake blue orb
II on it, but now Im begining to wonder if this cooler is sufficient.
Also....could a small layer of dust on the heatsink cooler make a
difference? Im assuming this since the computer ran for 2 months ok
then in June it started crashing only on gaming.

Ed

Run Stress Prime with each stick by itself. Compare test results
between the two test runs. If one case fails and the other one doesn't,
that could be confirming what your other tests are showing (that failure
follows the memory stick).

If the "good stick" of RAM can run Stress Prime for as long as you're
willing to wait, then I guess that tells you that 58C is not too much.

As for whether you should tolerate a 58C CPU temperature, you are
using a 3.8GHz P4, so it is bound to get hot. There are some nice
heatpipe coolers you can use, to reduce the temp -- how much money
do you want to spend to fix it ?

For a cooler, the Typhoon places an emphasis on quiet, and the fan
should probably run a bit faster than it does. It uses a 120mm square
fan.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16835106061

And volume-wise, this is probably the biggest one you can buy. Some
people have trouble fitting this inside their computer case. Tuniq
Tower is the same price as the Typhoon.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16835154001

There are plenty of other candidates on the pages of Newegg - read
the reviews to see what kind of performance the customers got. Many
people will be using lower power processors than a 3.8GHz P4, so you
have to find reviews where people used a hot processor. For example,
an AMD 6000+ X2 is 125W under load, and would be a good test for any
heatsink. A puny Core2 Duo at 65W, is hardly a good test of a cooler,
and a lot of people use those.

The 3.8GHz P4 here, is 115W TDP.
http://processorfinder.intel.com/details.aspx?sSpec=SL84Y

For an Intel processor, there are a couple critical temperatures.
There is the throttle temperature, where internally the processor
slows down, to try to cool itself off. On some processors, this
temp is in the 65C to 70C range. The second temperature point,
is THERMTRIP, which causes the computer to shut off. This temp
varies by product family. On some older processors, it was set
way high (135C). More recent processors, THERMTRIP at 20C more than
the throttle temp.

So 58C is still OK, with respect to those two trip points. The
first trip point robs you of performance, while the second
trip point shuts the computer off. And at 58C, you've avoided
both of those conditions.

The math behind coolers is pretty simple. You have the room temp
(like 25C). Increasing the room temp, results in the computer
temps rising to the same degree. A well cooled computer case might
run around 32C (i.e. 7C more than R.T.). The CPU temp would be

CPU_temp = Case_air_temp + (Processor_Power * Thermal_Resistance)

Say you had a Zalman 9500A cooler for your CPU. The product page
lists thermal resistance as 0.12C/W at max fan speed, and 0.16C/W
with the fan speed adjusted for quiet.

http://www.zalman.co.kr/eng/product/view.asp?idx=247&code=009

CPU_Temp = 32C + (115W * 0.12C/W) = 45.8C at max fan speed,
and running Stress Prime

If your case isn't cooled very well, then it'll run above the 32C
figure. If the heatsink you buy, has a thermal resistance higher than
0.12C/W, then the resulting CPU temperature will be warmer.

Not all heatsinks have a measured thermal resistance (theta_R) value,
and you may have to go looking for good review articles, to get a
measured value. Note that not all review sites are equally gifted
when it comes to heatsink reviews, and some sites only do the reviews
to get themselves a free cooler.

Paul

 

[w_tom]

I don't have the spec numbers for your processor. However you take
that number. That is the temperature it can be at when the room is at
100 degrees F. So subtract 20 degrees C from that number. That is
the temperature the CPU must be at in a 70 degree room. What is the
max temperature of your CPU? 70 degrees? Then CPU must not fail at
58 degrees. IOW that is a hardware failure.

Selecting heatsink assemblies starts by doing calculations. You
should know from CPU specs its average power consumption (in watts).
Heatsink manufacturer (if he is honest) must provide the 'degree C per
watt' number. Now you know the temperature difference between
exterior air and CPU. Does the heatsink perform according to its
'degree C per watt' calculations? Is the heatsink really sufficient?

We solve problems by doing the numbers (the hypothesis) and then
confirming those numbers with the experiment. Some reasons for higher
heat are bad heatsink surfaces (which is why thermal compound is
necessary) or excessive thermal compound. Too much is bad. Too
little causes no problem are a properly machined heatsink.

The only time dust is a problem is when dust completely obstructs
airflow. Heatsink designs must include dust coatings. And if dust is
so massive as to close the heatsink, then computer chassis is moving
too much air or computer is being used in an industrial environment -
heavy dust settles daily on everything.

I do not see where you performed comprehensive hardware diagnostics
using heat (the hairdryer). Effective diagnostics execute without
Windows even loaded. If your computer manufacturer is not
responsible, then you must obtain third party diagnostics or
diagnostics from each component manufacturer. One popular memory
diagnostic is Memtst86. Each diagnostic is executed at room temperate
AND at elevated temperatures.

I also do not see where voltages are confirmed - that two minute
procedure defined above at http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh . Expect
temperature related failures to occur if voltage integrity is not
confirmed. It was not a suggestion. It was a very strongest
recommendation. Your symptoms such as running for two month OK are
typical of a computer that has always had voltage problems.

 

[E.T.]

I also do not see where voltages are confirmed - that two minute
procedure defined above at http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh. Expect
temperature related failures to occur if voltage integrity is not
confirmed. It was not a suggestion. It was a very strongest
recommendation. Your symptoms such as running for two month OK are
typical of a computer that has always had voltage problems.

Ok, decided to take your advice and got a friends multimeter. However
(im not very experienced with multimeters) Have this "Cen-Tech P37772
multimeter tester" Set meter to DC,..(took me awhile to figure which
one was DC since it isnt labeled with words but electrical symbols) So
which setting do I set for all wires? Theres a 200m,2,20,200, and a
1000 setting. I assumed the purple wire woud use the 20 setting, but
what about the green & grey wire?

Ed