Cloning Windows

[-rwxrw-r--]

This is very interesting, Anna! If WinXP doesn't lack the capability,
it seems to imply that the limitation is in the BIOS.

*TimDaniels*

If that was the case, how would you explain that people are successfully
booting Linux off of external drives, even USB flash drives?

At some point modern operating systems take over the role of the BIOS when
booting. The fact that Linux can be booted and XP cannot would seem to
indicate the limitation is not in the BIOS.

 

[David H. Lipman]

From: "-rwxrw-r--" <[email protected]>

|
| If that was the case, how would you explain that people are successfully
| booting Linux off of external drives, even USB flash drives?
|
| At some point modern operating systems take over the role of the BIOS when
| booting. The fact that Linux can be booted and XP cannot would seem to
| indicate the limitation is not in the BIOS.
|
| --
| Now this is Eye-Candy! Most beautiful desktop in the world.
| Checkout ELive - a live Linux CD - run E17
| http://www.elivecd.org/gb/About/index.html

The OS can *never* "...take over the role of the BIOS...". The BIOS is the middle-ware of
the motherboard hardware and the OS (any OS). The OS requires the BIOS to know how to
communicate with the various chip-sets and perpheral components.

Kill the BIOS (i.e, let the Chernobyl or Kriz execute its payload) an NO OS will be usable
and the motherboard will not even perform the POST. Basically, an impotent and dead system.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

If that was the case, how would you explain that people are successfully
booting Linux off of external drives, even USB flash drives?

At some point modern operating systems take over the role of the BIOS
when booting. The fact that Linux can be booted and XP cannot would
seem to indicate the limitation is not in the BIOS.

I'm just learning, here. But I found this which *seems* to indicate
that Microsoft thinks its WinXP could boot from a USB drive
if only the BIOS would implement it:
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/storage/usbfaq.mspx

Read it and tell us your interpretation.

*TimDaniels*

 

[Kerry Brown]

From: "-rwxrw-r--" <[email protected]>

|
| If that was the case, how would you explain that people are successfully
| booting Linux off of external drives, even USB flash drives?
|
| At some point modern operating systems take over the role of the BIOS
when
| booting. The fact that Linux can be booted and XP cannot would seem to
| indicate the limitation is not in the BIOS.
|
| --
| Now this is Eye-Candy! Most beautiful desktop in the world.
| Checkout ELive - a live Linux CD - run E17
| http://www.elivecd.org/gb/About/index.html

The OS can *never* "...take over the role of the BIOS...". The BIOS is
the middle-ware of
the motherboard hardware and the OS (any OS). The OS requires the BIOS to
know how to
communicate with the various chip-sets and perpheral components.

Kill the BIOS (i.e, let the Chernobyl or Kriz execute its payload) an NO
OS will be usable
and the motherboard will not even perform the POST. Basically, an
impotent and dead system.

The OS can take over many functions of the BIOS. Windows XP takes over most
of the interrupt vector table from the BIOS. Not booting from a USB drive is
a limitation of XP.

Kerry

 

[-rwxrw-r--]

From: "-rwxrw-r--" <[email protected]>

|
| If that was the case, how would you explain that people are successfully
| booting Linux off of external drives, even USB flash drives?
|
| At some point modern operating systems take over the role of the BIOS
| when booting. The fact that Linux can be booted and XP cannot would seem
| to indicate the limitation is not in the BIOS.
|
| --
| Now this is Eye-Candy! Most beautiful desktop in the world.
| Checkout ELive - a live Linux CD - run E17
| http://www.elivecd.org/gb/About/index.html

The OS can *never* "...take over the role of the BIOS...". The BIOS is
the middle-ware of
the motherboard hardware and the OS (any OS). The OS requires the BIOS to
know how to communicate with the various chip-sets and perpheral
components.

Of course modern OS's take over the role of the bios all sorts of ways! The
BIOS is necessary to get the computer up and running and to get to the boot
loader, but once the OS gets going, it interacts directly with the hardware
through the drivers installed and NOT through the BIOS.

Read this little snippet (and learn) ...

http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/bios/biosDirect-c.html

Kill the BIOS (i.e, let the Chernobyl or Kriz execute its payload) an NO
OS will be usable
and the motherboard will not even perform the POST. Basically, an
impotent and dead system.

Duh! First off, no possibility to get those types of playloads because they
are Windoze-centric.

Secondly, I know that the computer won't bootup if the BIOS is compromised,
but that isn't what I said originally, now is it? I said: "modern operating
systems take over the role of the BIOS when booting". You can infer that
that takes place only after the OS has started and begins to load all its
various device drivers.

 

[David H. Lipman]

From: "Kerry Brown" <[email protected]*a*m>


| The OS can take over many functions of the BIOS. Windows XP takes over most
| of the interrupt vector table from the BIOS. Not booting from a USB drive is
| a limitation of XP.
|
| Kerry
|

It can not take over the role of the BIOS. The BIOS is 100% required for all Operating
Systems. No BIOS no POST, no boot.

 

[David H. Lipman]

From: "-rwxrw-r--" <[email protected]>


| Of course modern OS's take over the role of the bios all sorts of ways! The
| BIOS is necessary to get the computer up and running and to get to the boot
| loader, but once the OS gets going, it interacts directly with the hardware
| through the drivers installed and NOT through the BIOS.
|
| Read this little snippet (and learn) ...
|
| http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/bios/biosDirect-c.html
|| Duh! First off, no possibility to get those types of playloads because they
| are Windoze-centric.
|
| Secondly, I know that the computer won't bootup if the BIOS is compromised,
| but that isn't what I said originally, now is it? I said: "modern operating
| systems take over the role of the BIOS when booting". You can infer that
| that takes place only after the OS has started and begins to load all its
| various device drivers.
|
| --
| Now this is Eye-Candy! Most beautiful desktop in the world.
| Checkout ELive - a live Linux CD - run E17
| http://www.elivecd.org/gb/About/index.html

Now you are getting into semantics. The statement "... take over the role of the BIOS when
booting". The BIOS hands off the boot function to the boot loader. So it does "take over
the role", the BIOS hands off the funtion to the OS.

 

[-rwxrw-r--]

From: "-rwxrw-r--" <[email protected]>


| Of course modern OS's take over the role of the bios all sorts of ways!
| The BIOS is necessary to get the computer up and running and to get to
| the boot loader, but once the OS gets going, it interacts directly with
| the hardware through the drivers installed and NOT through the BIOS.
|
| Read this little snippet (and learn) ...
|
| http://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/bios/biosDirect-c.html
|
| Duh! First off, no possibility to get those types of playloads because
| they are Windoze-centric.
|
| Secondly, I know that the computer won't bootup if the BIOS is
| compromised, but that isn't what I said originally, now is it? I said:
| "modern operating systems take over the role of the BIOS when booting".
| You can infer that that takes place only after the OS has started and
| begins to load all its various device drivers.
|
| --
| Now this is Eye-Candy! Most beautiful desktop in the world.
| Checkout ELive - a live Linux CD - run E17
| http://www.elivecd.org/gb/About/index.html

Now you are getting into semantics. The statement "... take over the role
of the BIOS when
booting". The BIOS hands off the boot function to the boot loader. So it
does "take over the role", the BIOS hands off the funtion to the OS.

Richard you have chosen to ignore the issue that needed to be corrected,
that the BIOS plays the role of "middleman". That whole question is the key
to the subject of this thread. Is it a BIOS or OS responsibility that XP
cannot be booted from an external harddrive. It is not "semantics" and you
obviously have stood corrected and are trying to move the discussion over
to the need of a BIOS to bootup an OS, which as I've already stated is
acknowledged.

Admit you were wrong and try and address the original topic. If you cannot,
that's fine too. I have no explanation why XP is unable to boot from an
external harddrive. I suspect it is an OS issue and not a BIOS issue for
the reasons already given.

 

[Kerry Brown]

From: "Kerry Brown" <[email protected]*a*m>


| The OS can take over many functions of the BIOS. Windows XP takes over
most
| of the interrupt vector table from the BIOS. Not booting from a USB
drive is
| a limitation of XP.
|
| Kerry
|

It can not take over the role of the BIOS. The BIOS is 100% required for
all Operating
Systems. No BIOS no POST, no boot.

POST ==> BOOTSTRAPLOADER ==> OS takes over BIOS functions. As Linux and even
Windows Pe can be made to boot from a USB device with the right motherboard
BIOS this means the right BIOS can load the bootstrap code from a USB
device. The problem is with XP.

Kerry

 

[Bob I]

I don't think they indicated any such thing. (quoted excerpt below)

"Q: Can a USB storage device be the primary (and only) means of storage?
No. USB-based mass storage devices cannot be the primary hard disk
storage solution on a regular system (Microsoft Windows Logo Program
System and Device Requirements, B10.1.5.6). However, these devices might
be expected to be a replacement for booting to load an operating system
(for example using a CD-ROM drive over USB) on the primary boot drive or
as a replacement for legacy floppy disk drives. Booting from an external
USB CD-ROM or USB floppy disk drive requires BIOS support."

 

[David H. Lipman]

From: "Kerry Brown" <[email protected]*a*m>


| POST ==> BOOTSTRAPLOADER ==> OS takes over BIOS functions. As Linux and even
| Windows Pe can be made to boot from a USB device with the right motherboard
| BIOS this means the right BIOS can load the bootstrap code from a USB
| device. The problem is with XP.
|
| Kerry
|

POST ==> BOOTSTRAPLOADER ==> OS takes control from BIOS functions.

And no where did I say that the problem was NOT within XP.

 

[Timothy Daniels]

I don't think they indicated any such thing. (quoted excerpt below)

"Q: Can a USB storage device be the primary (and only) means of
storage?

No. USB-based mass storage devices cannot be the primary hard
disk storage solution on a regular system (Microsoft Windows Logo
Program System and Device Requirements, B10.1.5.6). However,
these devices might be expected to be a replacement for booting
to load an operating system (for example using a CD-ROM drive
over USB) on the primary boot drive or as a replacement for legacy
floppy disk drives. Booting from an external USB CD-ROM or USB
floppy disk drive requires BIOS support."

Agreed. But take a look at:
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/storage/usb-boot.mspx ,
specifically the sections headed
"Windows Requirements for Boot Devices " and
"Requirements and Recommendations for BIOS Manufacturers".

(Please bottom-post.)

*TimDaniels*

 

[Anna]

I don't think they indicated any such thing. (quoted excerpt below)

"Q: Can a USB storage device be the primary (and only) means of storage?
No. USB-based mass storage devices cannot be the primary hard disk storage
solution on a regular system (Microsoft Windows Logo Program System and
Device Requirements, B10.1.5.6). However, these devices might be expected
to be a replacement for booting to load an operating system (for example
using a CD-ROM drive over USB) on the primary boot drive or as a
replacement for legacy floppy disk drives. Booting from an external USB
CD-ROM or USB floppy disk drive requires BIOS support."

And then there's this...
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/storage/usb-boot.mspx#EGAA

Admittedly this MS technical paper has a certain schizoid quality about it
(at least in my reading!) as to this ability of a USB external device to
boot to an XP OS. On one hand they seem to at least infer that there is no
overriding technical obstacle which would prevent a motherboard's BIOS from
having this capability, i.e. booting the XP OS from a USB external HD.
Indeed, Microsoft at least appears to encourage the motherboard
manufacturers to include this capability. Yet the article also states that
"Windows as it exists today is currently not optimized to run as an
installed operating system from USB attached mass-storage or CD." On the
other hand, the article states "The best thing about adding another bootable
bus to Windows is that manufacturers can take advantage of much of the
existing Windows boot process. As long as a new device looks and behaves
like existing devices while NT Loader loads the system, new devices can be
made to work like old devices. The goal for booting Windows from a USB
device is to use as much of the existing Windows boot process with as little
change as possible." This seems to indicate that there is nothing inherent
in the XP OS preventing it from being boot from an external device.

Well, as we know (most of us anyway), in this real-life world at this time
one cannot boot the XP OS from a USB external hard drive. Maybe tomorrow.
Anna

 

[Kerry Brown]

From: "Kerry Brown" <[email protected]*a*m>


| POST ==> BOOTSTRAPLOADER ==> OS takes over BIOS functions. As Linux and
even
| Windows Pe can be made to boot from a USB device with the right
motherboard
| BIOS this means the right BIOS can load the bootstrap code from a USB
| device. The problem is with XP.
|
| Kerry
|

POST ==> BOOTSTRAPLOADER ==> OS takes control from BIOS functions.

And no where did I say that the problem was NOT within XP.

David

You are being picky. You said that the OS could not take over the BIOS. I
assumed that you meant that this inferred the BIOS was reason that XP
couldn't boot from a removable drive. As many people have pointed out most
OS's replace many BIOS functions as they are loading. The BIOS is needed to
start the boot process. Let's leave it at that

Kerry

 

[Richard Urban [MVP]]

Remove the bios chip from the computer and no operating system will boot as
it will not know what hardware is installed. The box will not even P.O.S.T.

--
Regards,

Richard Urban
Microsoft MVP Windows Shell/User

Quote from: George Ankner
"If you knew as much as you think you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!"

 

[David H. Lipman]

From: "Kerry Brown" <[email protected]*a*m>


| David
|
| You are being picky. You said that the OS could not take over the BIOS. I
| assumed that you meant that this inferred the BIOS was reason that XP
| couldn't boot from a removable drive. As many people have pointed out most
| OS's replace many BIOS functions as they are loading. The BIOS is needed to
| start the boot process. Let's leave it at that
|
| Kerry
|

OK

 

[David H. Lipman]

From: "Anna" <[email protected]>

|
| And then there's this...
| http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/device/storage/usb-boot.mspx#EGAA
|
| Admittedly this MS technical paper has a certain schizoid quality about it
| (at least in my reading!) as to this ability of a USB external device to
| boot to an XP OS. On one hand they seem to at least infer that there is no
| overriding technical obstacle which would prevent a motherboard's BIOS from
| having this capability, i.e. booting the XP OS from a USB external HD.
| Indeed, Microsoft at least appears to encourage the motherboard
| manufacturers to include this capability. Yet the article also states that
| "Windows as it exists today is currently not optimized to run as an
| installed operating system from USB attached mass-storage or CD." On the
| other hand, the article states "The best thing about adding another bootable
| bus to Windows is that manufacturers can take advantage of much of the
| existing Windows boot process. As long as a new device looks and behaves
| like existing devices while NT Loader loads the system, new devices can be
| made to work like old devices. The goal for booting Windows from a USB
| device is to use as much of the existing Windows boot process with as little
| change as possible." This seems to indicate that there is nothing inherent
| in the XP OS preventing it from being boot from an external device.
|
| Well, as we know (most of us anyway), in this real-life world at this time
| one cannot boot the XP OS from a USB external hard drive. Maybe tomorrow.
| Anna
|

Which leads me to query -- Is this the same for Win2003 Server ?
Which is really Windows XP Server (Windows v5.2)

 

[Kerry Brown]

Richard

This discussion seems to have a lot of miscommunication. I misunderstood
David now you are misunderstanding what I said. The BIOS is needed to start
the boot process. Once the boot is started the OS can, and many do, take
over many of the BIOS functions. This has been true ever since CP/M days.
Nowhere did anybody say anything about removing the BIOS chip.

Kerry