clicking HDD

[news.rcn.com]

Just bought a Dell with a totally inaccessible, - often clicking, - drive.
The girl who had it told me that it contained her whole life!! i was
wondering if anyone had any ideas how it might be retrieved without spending
the numerous thousands ontrack would want?

I have tried all the usual things which have occasionally worked before,
leaving it in the freezer, slamming it, not too hard on a flat surface to
free up the servos, etc. By the clicking there doesn't seem to be too much
wrong with the arms!!

Anyone got any other ideas? The name of the Travelstar drive isn't
even recognised by the Hitachi utility!! (Am NOT imagining that I am ever
going to be able to use this drive)

 

[Rod Speed]

Just bought a Dell with a totally inaccessible, - often clicking, - drive. The girl who
had it told me that it contained her whole life!!
i was wondering if anyone had any ideas how it might be retrieved
without spending the numerous thousands ontrack would want?

Basically work out why its clicking and fix that.

I have tried all the usual things which have occasionally worked before, leaving it in
the freezer, slamming it, not too hard on a flat surface to free up the servos, etc.

That last isnt a good idea at all. Its only useful if the drive
doesnt spin up and the heads are stuck to the platter surface.

By the clicking there doesn't seem to be too much wrong with the arms!!

Its usually the drive recalibrating when it cant read the
platters properly. That may have quite a bit to do with
whats on the arms, particularly the read amp etc.

Anyone got any other ideas?

Swapping the logic card from an identical model can help
if the problem is with the logic card and thats not uncommon.

There are cheaper recovery operations than ontrack too.
http://www.retrodata.co.uk/

The name of the Travelstar drive isn't even recognised by the Hitachi utility!!

That does indicate that the logic card may well be the problem.

 

[Davy]

Have a look here....
http://www.meetmyattorney.com/slink/mt-archives/000275.html, this was
pointed out to me only the other day... seriously though have a look
at the next link.

http://www.lowendmac.com/tech/clickodeath.shtml


Davy

 

[Arno Wagner]

Just bought a Dell with a totally inaccessible, - often clicking, - drive.
The girl who had it told me that it contained her whole life!! i was
wondering if anyone had any ideas how it might be retrieved without spending
the numerous thousands ontrack would want?

I have tried all the usual things which have occasionally worked before,
leaving it in the freezer, slamming it, not too hard on a flat surface to
free up the servos, etc. By the clicking there doesn't seem to be too much
wrong with the arms!!

Anyone got any other ideas? The name of the Travelstar drive isn't
even recognised by the Hitachi utility!! (Am NOT imagining that I am ever
going to be able to use this drive)

And not doing additional damage with low probability of success?
No way without the right tools and expertise. Sorry.

Arno

 

[CJT]

Just bought a Dell with a totally inaccessible, - often clicking, - drive.
The girl who had it told me that it contained her whole life!! i was
wondering if anyone had any ideas how it might be retrieved without spending
the numerous thousands ontrack would want?

I have tried all the usual things which have occasionally worked before,
leaving it in the freezer, slamming it, not too hard on a flat surface to
free up the servos, etc. By the clicking there doesn't seem to be too much
wrong with the arms!!

Anyone got any other ideas? The name of the Travelstar drive isn't
even recognised by the Hitachi utility!! (Am NOT imagining that I am ever
going to be able to use this drive)

In other words, you're just enlisting the world's help to further your
voyeurism?

 

[Arno Wagner]

In other words, you're just enlisting the world's help to further your
voyeurism?

That would be bad. I hope this drive is entriely unrecoverable.

Arno

 

[news.rcn.com]

That's very charming of you to think that helping someone who has suffered a
catastrophic HDD and says she has lost everything and is desperate to
recover constitutes voyeurism.

I suppose it takes someone with a VERY warped mind to think this sort of
thing and hadn't come across that sort of person on this NG before. All
sorts of insults are traded here between users to even the simplest of
requests. There is a lot of expertise here and the sniping is usually
relatively good humoured and always, it seems, between the same people who
are sometimes right or sometimes wrong; but never between people who are
actually sick!

There are lots of NGs where you could get help. This is so OT that it isn't
really up to people like me to research them for you.

Moving back to the real world for just a minute, thanks for the suggestion
as to switching the logic board. I was faintly aware that this could be done
by simply unscrewing one from one and putting it on another but thought that
there was SIGNIFICANTLY more to this process than this?? It is only an IBM
Travelstar 20 Gig which is quite common.

But I am wondering how much damage I could do to one of my working drives
just to help her out because she lives a few blocks from me and sold me her
computer reasonably inexpensively; while there were about twenty calls an
hour coming in on the advertising site she used but she was honorable enough
to commit to me and sell it to me (without increasing the price) because I
called and then got there first?

 

[Rod Speed]

That's very charming of you to think that helping someone who has suffered a
catastrophic HDD and says she has lost everything and is desperate to recover
constitutes voyeurism.

I suppose it takes someone with a VERY warped mind to think this sort of thing and
hadn't come across that sort of person on this NG
before. All sorts of insults are traded here between users to even
the simplest of requests. There is a lot of expertise here and the
sniping is usually relatively good humoured and always, it seems, between the same
people who are sometimes right or sometimes wrong; but never between people who are
actually sick!

There are lots of NGs where you could get help. This is so OT that it isn't really up to
people like me to research them for you.

thanks for the suggestion as to switching the logic board. I was faintly aware that this
could be done by simply unscrewing one from one and putting it on another but thought
that there was SIGNIFICANTLY more to this process than this??

Nope, tho it doesnt always work with some drives.

It is only an IBM Travelstar 20 Gig which is quite common.

But I am wondering how much damage I could do to one of my working drives just to help
her out

There have been some examples of where someone has
attempted a logic card swap with a pair of brand new
drives and that has rendered both drives useless in the
sense that even with the original config of card on drive,
neither drive works anymore. Not that I am aware of with
that particular drive tho. Its only a small risk and she may
be prepared to pay for a drive that dies in that situation,
a small gamble to get her data back.

because she lives a few blocks from me and sold me her computer reasonably
inexpensively; while there were about twenty calls an hour coming in on the advertising
site she used but she was honorable enough to commit to me and sell it to me (without
increasing the price) because I called and then got there first?

I'd personally try a logic card swap in that situation.

 

[news.rcn.com]

I'd personally try a logic card swap in that situation.


I think you are right: She did offer to pay me $600 if I could get the data
off it.

Personally I wouldn't take a penny after she had sold me her computer so
cheaply (and I have a spare 50 gig drive lying around), but would like to
be reimbursed if it did result in destruction of my drive. Taken as a whole
however, she might do better sending it to someone in New York or Retrodata
to do any such swap. I'd have to hunt around for a 20 gig drive having just
noticed that my 'spare' IBM one is a 30 gig drive!

 

[news.rcn.com]

Nope, tho it doesnt always work with some drives.



There have been some examples of where someone has
attempted a logic card swap with a pair of brand new
drives and that has rendered both drives useless in the
sense that even with the original config of card on drive,
neither drive works anymore. Not that I am aware of with
that particular drive tho. Its only a small risk and she may
be prepared to pay for a drive that dies in that situation,
a small gamble to get her data back.


I'd personally try a logic card swap in that situation.

Obtained some different drives and am starting to wonder what the
differences are between IBM 30 gig drives which have slightly different part
numbers: Some are IC20NO30ATCS04 while some are IC20NO30ATDA04. As I had
reported elsewhere, Hitachi insists that the swap wont work unless the
firmware of the drive is the same, which of course it rarely will be. I
wonder if the logic boards are the same for both drives. In any event,
There seem to be three situations and I wonder if anyone can shed light on
them:
1 plugging the drive into the chain stops the computer from booting to POST
at all (This is mysterious. The problem seems to arise before the POST
looks to the IDE chains for info to move forward: Short in logic board?)
2. Drive not identified in DFT (I thought that this meant logic board dead
but I have tried changing two drives, one of which had this problem and the
other had a shock problem and the one with the shock problem still
identifies and still has the shock problem after the switch to the
supposedly dead logic board??)
3. Clicking drive for 5-6 seconds or fails DFT in some way. (SEEMS logic
board is OK on this and problem is on platters causing arms to click against
rest area? Not sure why clicking stops. Drive shows up in Knoppix but
unsurprisingly Linux reports that this HDA2 doesn't mount)

Yes, there is a No: 4 as well. Some drives actually cause the bootable DFT
CD to not boot. The unit thinks about it for a minute or so and then boots
to Windows! This is totally mysterious.

I have managed to resuscitate one drive by swapping logic boards and it now
passes the DFT. It then crashes on boot into Windows (naturally as a primary
on the secondary IDE) and won't let the computer boot into Knoppix. Must do
some work on that one, preferably without having to format it, and report
back! I wonder how much can be wrong with it if it passes the advanced DFT?

 

[Rod Speed]

Obtained some different drives and am starting to wonder what the differences are between IBM 30
gig drives which have slightly different part numbers: Some are IC20NO30ATCS04 while some are
IC20NO30ATDA04.

Havent seen any detailled list of exactly what the components of that means.

For some reason neither get any hits in google or yahoo, unusual.

I'd assume you cant mix logic cards between those.

As I had reported elsewhere, Hitachi insists that the swap wont work unless the firmware of the
drive is the same, which of course it rarely will be. I wonder if the logic boards are the same
for both drives.

I doubt it.

In any event, There seem to be three situations and I wonder if anyone can shed light on them:

1 plugging the drive into the chain stops the computer from booting
to POST at all (This is mysterious. The problem seems to arise
before the POST looks to the IDE chains for info to move forward: Short in logic board?)

It can take a surprisingly long time for the poll for
drives to timeout if the drive doesnt respond properly.

2. Drive not identified in DFT (I thought that this meant logic board
dead but I have tried changing two drives, one of which had this
problem and the other had a shock problem and the one with the shock problem still identifies and
still has the shock problem after the switch to the supposedly dead logic board??)

The logic card cant be dead if it identifys itself.

BUT that doesnt mean that it can do basic stuff like spin the platters up.

3. Clicking drive for 5-6 seconds or fails DFT in some way. (SEEMS logic board is OK on this and
problem is on platters causing arms to click against rest area?

No, the clicking is the drive recalibrating when it cant read the platters properly.

That can be because the logic card has failed in the area where the heads
connect, or the connection to the heads has failed, or if the electronics
inside the sealed enclosure associated with the heads has failed.

Not sure why clicking stops.

It doesnt recalibrate forever, it gives up eventually.

Drive shows up in Knoppix but unsurprisingly Linux reports that this HDA2 doesn't mount)

Thats just because the drive identifies itself but cant provide any useful data from the platters.

Yes, there is a No: 4 as well. Some drives actually cause the
bootable DFT CD to not boot. The unit thinks about it for a minute
or so and then boots to Windows! This is totally mysterious.

Not really, you can see the logic card fail in a way that prevents access
to another drive on the same ribbon cable, so the scan for a bootable CD
can fail in that case, so it falls over to booting Win of the hard drive instead.

I have managed to resuscitate one drive by swapping logic boards and it now passes the DFT. It
then crashes on boot into Windows
(naturally as a primary on the secondary IDE) and won't let the
computer boot into Knoppix. Must do some work on that one,
preferably without having to format it, and report back! I wonder
how much can be wrong with it if it passes the advanced DFT?

Its not that surprising that it crashes on a boot into Windows
if its one of the NT/2K/XP family, you cant usually move a
bootable drive to a different machine and have it boot that
because it doesnt have the drivers for the correct chipset
on the motherboard anymore.

Not clear why that stops the knoppix boot tho. Try that config
with the CD drive and the hard drive on a different ribbon cable.

 

[news.rcn.com]

Havent seen any detailled list of exactly what the components of that
means.

For some reason neither get any hits in google or yahoo, unusual.

I get the impression they are standard drives: Hitachi used the same part
number (one of them) when they stopped calling them IBM travelstars and
started using the Hitachi Travelstar name

I'd assume you cant mix logic cards between those.


I doubt it.



It can take a surprisingly long time for the poll for
drives to timeout if the drive doesnt respond properly.

No, I mean that nothing happens even if you leave it on overnight!

The logic card cant be dead if it identifys itself.

SO there is a good logic board but what I have is probably drives with logic
board AND platter problems! (shock-problems in this case)

I suppose the trick would be to try all logic boards in the drive with the
shock problem and see which ones do and which ones dont read their names in
DFT to establish which logic boards are indeed dead.

BUT that doesnt mean that it can do basic stuff like spin the platters up.


No, the clicking is the drive recalibrating when it cant read the platters
properly.

That can be because the logic card has failed in the area where the heads
connect, or the connection to the heads has failed, or if the electronics
inside the sealed enclosure associated with the heads has failed.

Aha! So the logic boards of those drives are in fact gone. I thought that
if the drives could be identified in the DFT, it meant that they were OK.
Seems this was simplistic. Especially if I have drives with gone logic
boards AND mechanicals.

It doesnt recalibrate forever, it gives up eventually.


Thats just because the drive identifies itself but cant provide any useful
data from the platters.

I wonder whether that should mean that the drives are OK?

Not really, you can see the logic card fail in a way that prevents access
to another drive on the same ribbon cable, so the scan for a bootable CD
can fail in that case, so it falls over to booting Win of the hard drive
instead.

Yes, that makes sense within the context of the CD being as you suggest on
the same IDE chain

Its not that surprising that it crashes on a boot into Windows
if its one of the NT/2K/XP family, you cant usually move a
bootable drive to a different machine and have it boot that
because it doesnt have the drivers for the correct chipset
on the motherboard anymore.

No, I wouldnt dream of assuming that all the chipsets and configs will 'do'
on another computer: I meant that the drive is giving problems as a primary
on the secondary IDE with the boot disc being on the primary. It doesnt boot
to this drive which is why I couldnt understand why it was giving problems
on going into Windows.

Not clear why that stops the knoppix boot tho. Try that config
with the CD drive and the hard drive on a different ribbon cable.

Curiously the whole computer now blue screens on inaccessible boot device
with the 2.5 inch drives DISconnected. I suppose it may well have crashed so
many times on boot that it has corrupted its W2K configuration files!
This is the sort of thing IBM used to tell customers OS/2 would do if the
computer crased on boot ONCE.

Will have to dig out my BartPE boot disc and see if it is repairable. Or
there is probably a simple way of doing a repair (install?) using a W2K
install disc.

 

[Rod Speed]

I get the impression they are standard drives: Hitachi used the same
part number (one of them) when they stopped calling them IBM
travelstars and started using the Hitachi Travelstar name

They dont show up in http://www.hgst.com/hdd/support/table2.htm
tho. The IC25N* series do.

No, I mean that nothing happens even if you leave it on overnight!

SO there is a good logic board

ONLY good in the sense that it can identify itself.

but what I have is probably drives with logic board AND platter problems!

Or a logic card that has problems but can still identify itself.

(shock-problems in this case)

Not sure where this is coming from.

I suppose the trick would be to try all logic boards in the drive with the shock problem and see
which ones do and which ones dont read
their names in DFT to establish which logic boards are indeed dead.

I wouldnt bother with cards with the wrong IC20NO30AT* number.

Aha! So the logic boards of those drives are in fact gone. I thought that if the drives could be
identified in the DFT, it meant that they were OK. Seems this was simplistic.
Yes.

Especially if I have drives with gone logic boards AND mechanicals.

Thats unlikely, to have two separate failures in the one drive.

I wonder whether that should mean that the drives are OK?

Nope, not unless it passes the diagnostic too. A drive can have
a problem which isnt serious enough to make the drive recalibrate
but which has bad sectors in the file structures that stops it mounting.

That corruption might have happened with a different logic card tho,
so its also possible that the drive is now fine with the different logic card.

Yes, that makes sense within the context of the CD being as you suggest on the same IDE chain

No, I wouldnt dream of assuming that all the chipsets and configs
will 'do' on another computer: I meant that the drive is giving problems as a primary on the
secondary IDE with the boot disc being
on the primary. It doesnt boot to this drive which is why I couldnt
understand why it was giving problems on going into Windows.

OK, in that case the symptom is unusual.

Curiously the whole computer now blue screens on inaccessible boot device with the 2.5 inch drives
DISconnected.

OK, then its likely got a fault or you have managed to partially
unseat say a memory card in the process of changing drives etc.

I suppose it may well have crashed so many times on boot that it has corrupted its W2K
configuration files!

Thats uncommon, it should just complain about a corrupted file.

This is the sort of thing IBM used to tell customers OS/2 would do if the computer crased on boot
ONCE.

I dont recall them saying that.

Will have to dig out my BartPE boot disc and see if it is repairable.

Or there is probably a simple way of doing a repair (install?) using a W2K install disc.

Yes, that is the best approach, but I doubt its corrupted,
much more likely to be a hardware problem.

 

[news.rcn.com]

news.rcn.com <news.rnc.com> wrote snip

ONLY good in the sense that it can identify itself.

oh dear, I didnt realise that there could be problems with logic boards but
they would still identify themselves

Or a logic card that has problems but can still identify itself.


Not sure where this is coming from.

(this is just the problem with the drive itself when I got it: Someone had
dropped it presumably. I had, it seems, a drive with good mechanicals but a
bad logic board. On changing it, I now have a drive with both good. What is
unusual is how the supposedly bad logic board can suddenly become good when
attached to a drive with shock problems! In any event, if the DFT can see
past the board to the platters, then I should use both logic board and
mechanicals to test other separate bits of other drives)

I wouldnt bother with cards with the wrong IC20NO30AT* number.



Thats unlikely, to have two separate failures in the one drive.

It is not SO unlikely: The crook who sold these drives to me cheap probably
did this exercise too and found problems in both areas so she matched up the
dead parts and sold them off

Nope, not unless it passes the diagnostic too. A drive can have
a problem which isnt serious enough to make the drive recalibrate
but which has bad sectors in the file structures that stops it mounting.

That corruption might have happened with a different logic card tho,
so its also possible that the drive is now fine with the different logic
card.
snip

OK, then its likely got a fault or you have managed to partially
unseat say a memory card in the process of changing drives etc.

This is how we are coming around to potentially the real problem!! I
certainly hope not!

Thats uncommon, it should just complain about a corrupted file.

No, it starts to go into Windows and then gives inaccessible boot device. In
safe mode, it loads all drivers and when finished, goes almost immediately
to the BSOD

I dont recall them saying that.

I once had them show me how to load OS/2 for two to three months just
because on initial install by me, the system had crashed, probably
innocuously, on restart. They insisted that rather than repair whatever it
was, I needed to manually install all constituent parts of the OS. It took
forever. By the time we were finished I used it for a few weeks and then W32
was released by MS which rendered OS/s obsolete for all GENERAL purposes.

Yes, that is the best approach, but I doubt its corrupted,
much more likely to be a hardware problem.

Again, I hope not. Looks like I will be needing to find some of that
hardware-diagnostic software similar to that on the boot partition of
Thinkpads which you access through the BIOS. (I doubt if it is as easy as
re-seating the memory chips). A few months ago, this computer took to
rebooting continuously after a few minutes of operation. I thought I had
rectified that by cleaning out the dust in the Power Supply.

 

[Rod Speed]

oh dear, I didnt realise that there could be problems with logic boards but they would still
identify themselves

(this is just the problem with the drive itself when I got it:
Someone had dropped it presumably. I had, it seems, a drive with
good mechanicals but a bad logic board. On changing it, I now have a drive with both good. What
is unusual is how the supposedly bad
logic board can suddenly become good when attached to a drive with
shock problems!

That cant happen. Thats basically proved that the logic card is fine.

In any event, if the DFT can see past the board to the platters, then I should use both logic
board and mechanicals to test other separate bits of other drives)

Trouble with that approach is that a good logic card wont necessarily work
on all other drives that are fine mechanically, do to the version problem etc.

It is not SO unlikely: The crook who sold these drives to me cheap
probably did this exercise too and found problems in both areas so
she matched up the dead parts and sold them off

OK, if thats what you meant, sure.

This is how we are coming around to potentially the real problem!! I certainly hope not!

No, it starts to go into Windows and then gives inaccessible boot
device. In safe mode, it loads all drivers and when finished, goes
almost immediately to the BSOD

OK, cant say I have tried that config, its possible
that safe mode will BSOD in that config with 2K.

I once had them show me how to load OS/2 for two to three months just because on initial install
by me, the system had crashed, probably
innocuously, on restart. They insisted that rather than repair whatever it was, I needed to
manually install all constituent parts of the OS. It took forever. By the time we were finished I
used it for a few weeks and then W32 was released by MS which rendered OS/s obsolete for all
GENERAL purposes.

Again, I hope not. Looks like I will be needing to find some of that hardware-diagnostic software
similar to that on the boot partition of Thinkpads which you access through the BIOS.

There isnt much around thats much good except Microscope and the
price of that will take you breath away if you arent into pirate software.

(I doubt if it is as easy as re-seating the memory chips).

The only real alternate possibility is static damage and the hard
drive manufacturer's diagnostic with a known good hard drive
or memtest86+ overnight runs should show that up if its happened.

A few months ago, this computer took to rebooting continuously after a few minutes of operation. I
thought I had rectified that by cleaning out the dust in the Power Supply.

OK, looks like that fault has returned. The error logs would be worth checking.

 

[news.rcn.com]

That cant happen. Thats basically proved that the logic card is fine.


Trouble with that approach is that a good logic card wont necessarily work
on all other drives that are fine mechanically, do to the version problem
etc.

What you you mean by version problem? Are YOU a beleiver in this point
conceringing firmware of the drive preventing one from changing boards??

OK, if thats what you meant, sure.




OK, cant say I have tried that config, its possible
that safe mode will BSOD in that config with 2K.

Well at least the unit is stable with Knoppix for a day so far: Unless Linux
puts significnatly less stress on the hardware, this pretty much suggests to
me a problem with W2K configuration

There isnt much around thats much good except Microscope and the
price of that will take you breath away if you arent into pirate software.


The only real alternate possibility is static damage and the hard
drive manufacturer's diagnostic with a known good hard drive
or memtest86+ overnight runs should show that up if its happened.


OK, looks like that fault has returned. The error logs would be worth
checking.

Are there logs on every event in W2K, even when it doesn't start properly?
Any idea where I check them in Knoppix please?

 

[Rod Speed]

What you you mean by version problem?

Revision of the logic card and the firmware version. Thats a different
issue to the model number which is the last part of that IC20N* number.

Are YOU a beleiver in this point conceringing firmware of the drive preventing one from changing
boards??

Not as absolutely as that, but you can certainly see a problem
when swapping between particular firmware versions at times.

Thats obviously when the detail of how the basic data on the
drive is stored varys between SOME firmware versions.

Well at least the unit is stable with Knoppix for a day so far:
Unless Linux puts significnatly less stress on the hardware,

Its not installed on the drive and is booted off the CD, not the hard drive.

this pretty much suggests to me a problem with W2K configuration

Or just that its booting off that drive instead of using it as a data drive like knoppix does.

Are there logs on every event in W2K,

Nope. The very early boot problems dont produce an error log entry necessarily,
because enough of 2K hasnt got loaded to be able to write to the error log etc.

even when it doesn't start properly?

Nope, particularly not then.

Any idea where I check them in Knoppix please?

knoppix doesnt have the equivalent. Essentially because its designed to
be booted off the CD, so there is nowhere you can always write the log to.

 

[Folkert Rienstra]

oh dear, I didnt realise that there could be problems with logic boards but
they would still identify themselves

They didn't use to, but that changed when drives were allowed to
startup in idle mode. Where before the identification info came from
the platters, now they need to identify without spinning the platters.

[snip]

 

[news.rcn.com]

Its not installed on the drive and is booted off the CD, not the hard
drive.

So I suppose running Knoppix verifies that there is nothing wrong with the
hardware except perhaps the hard drive.

Or just that its booting off that drive instead of using it as a data
drive like knoppix does.

Actually Knoppix doesnt let me write to this hard drive



Al that is left is to check what the BSOD inaccessible_boot_device means in
W2K when it appears just after the verbose drivers have loaded and the
screen goes black preparing to show the cursor when it goes into Windows.

 

[Rod Speed]

So I suppose running Knoppix verifies that there is nothing wrong with the hardware except perhaps
the hard drive.

Not necessarily, 2K can be more picky about the hardware.

Actually Knoppix doesnt let me write to this hard drive

Thats because the drive is NTFS formatted and knoppix
doesnt support writing to NTFS formatted drives.