Clear picture + grainy scan = poor print. HELP

[Heather W]

I have a picture that doesn't look grainy at all. I have tried scanning
it so that I can print copies and every time I do this the output is
really, really grainy. I have tried scanning in a 4x6 as well as an
8x10, but no matter what size I start with and no matter how clear the
original hardcopy the end result on both my computer screen and the
printer paper is grainy.

What can I do? I did this once before and the results were great with
that picture, but this one is being really problematic. The one that
worked was black and white and this one is color. I don't know if that
could have anything to do with why it worked and this one won't, but any
help would be greatly appreciated.

Heather

 

[lostinspace]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather W" <>
Newsgroups: comp.periphs.scanners
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 4:32 PM
Subject: Clear picture + grainy scan = poor print. HELP

I have a picture that doesn't look grainy at all. I have tried scanning
it so that I can print copies and every time I do this the output is
really, really grainy. I have tried scanning in a 4x6 as well as an
8x10, but no matter what size I start with and no matter how clear the
original hardcopy the end result on both my computer screen and the
printer paper is grainy.

What can I do? I did this once before and the results were great with
that picture, but this one is being really problematic. The one that
worked was black and white and this one is color. I don't know if that
could have anything to do with why it worked and this one won't, but any
help would be greatly appreciated.

Heather
--

Heather,
I'm not a scanner expert. Nor am I a photo expert. I have
however done an immeasurable amount of scanning of images.
Hopefully I may sort out you inquiry by asking some questions which will
allow others to assist you?

1) What brand and type of scanner are you using?
2) What type of image software came with the scanner?
3) What is the quality desired for end-use of the image?
4) is you scanner clean (free of dust and smears on the glass?)

A) Moire is commonly referred to as grain by new users.
1) Some recent scanner software's have an option to reduce moire during
the scan process. Most older software's did not and required using a noise
and dust option (not as good) after the scan.
Moire is a reflection of something or another
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=+Moire+&btnG=Google+Search
However
Mr. Fulton likley provides the best explanation as related to scanners:
http://www.scantips.com/basics06.html

Hope this helps

 

[Heather W]

Heather,
I'm not a scanner expert. Nor am I a photo expert. I have
however done an immeasurable amount of scanning of images.
Hopefully I may sort out you inquiry by asking some questions which will
allow others to assist you?

1) What brand and type of scanner are you using?
2) What type of image software came with the scanner?
3) What is the quality desired for end-use of the image?
4) is you scanner clean (free of dust and smears on the glass?)

A) Moire is commonly referred to as grain by new users.
1) Some recent scanner software's have an option to reduce moire during
the scan process. Most older software's did not and required using a noise
and dust option (not as good) after the scan.
Moire is a reflection of something or another
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=+Moire+&btnG=Google+Search
However
Mr. Fulton likley provides the best explanation as related to scanners:
http://www.scantips.com/basics06.html

Hope this helps

The scanner is a Visioneer 8100.

I don't know what software it runs, because I don't have it installed at
the moment. The scan that I am working with was saved to disk a few
months ago and I have since gotten a new computer that I haven't as yet
installed the scanner on.

The image software that I normally use is Paint Shop Pro, but for this
photo I also tried to fix it in Photoshop when PSP wasn't cutting it.

The quality must be impeccable as I am attempting to print head shots.
As I said I have done this in the past with another photo with great
results, but this new photo is giving me no end of trouble.

Yep, the scanner is clean. The grain is all over the photo and it
doesn't look like dust. I have seen dust on scans and this isn't it. It
doesn't look like moire either. I once scanned a magazine page and saw
the moire effect that was visible. This looks more like when you watch
TV off of an antenna and you aren't getting great reception.

I know it's a long post. Hopefully I have gotten all of the info in
there.

Heather

 

[lostinspace]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Heather W" <>
Newsgroups: comp.periphs.scanners
Sent: Tuesday, August 10, 2004 7:52 PM
Subject: Re: Clear picture + grainy scan = poor print. HELP

The scanner is a Visioneer 8100.

I don't know what software it runs, because I don't have it installed at
the moment. The scan that I am working with was saved to disk a few
months ago and I have since gotten a new computer that I haven't as yet
installed the scanner on.

The image software that I normally use is Paint Shop Pro, but for this
photo I also tried to fix it in Photoshop when PSP wasn't cutting it.

The quality must be impeccable as I am attempting to print head shots.
As I said I have done this in the past with another photo with great
results, but this new photo is giving me no end of trouble.

Yep, the scanner is clean. The grain is all over the photo and it
doesn't look like dust. I have seen dust on scans and this isn't it. It
doesn't look like moire either. I once scanned a magazine page and saw
the moire effect that was visible. This looks more like when you watch
TV off of an antenna and you aren't getting great reception.

I know it's a long post. Hopefully I have gotten all of the info in
there.

Heather

Heather,
The Visioneer 8100 is irrelavant UNLESS it was the scanner
used for this previously scanned photo?

PaintShop and PhotoShop are NOT the actual scanning software. When you open
these software's to scan an image, your scanner opens another software which
came from the factory with that scanner?

There have been many discussions here and in the Photoshop NG's about
attempts to clean up bad quality scans and the overall consenesus is dismal.
I've had very grainy images which were both the result of moire and just a
bad photo print (in many instances from a variety of reasons.) I've
attempted to clean some very grainy images which were scanned on an older
scanner and software which did not have the moire removal option with newer
softwares and my efforts were in vain.

Here's some links that may help (however, I believe your best result would
be in a fresh scan
[these first two links are very long and may be broken requiring copying and
pasting)
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...&as_maxd=11&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=2003&lr=&hl=en

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...&as_maxd=11&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=2003&lr=&hl=en

http://www.santarosa.edu/~bheiman/photoshop/moire.html

http://www.retouchpro.com/

http://www.reindeergraphics.com/tutorial/chap4/fourier04.html

http://www.polaroid.com/service/software/poladsr/poladsr.html

http://graphicssoft.about.com/cs/photoshop/ht/apsremovemoire.htm

hopefully some others will come along and provide their insights.

 

[Wayne Fulton]

This looks more like when you watch
TV off of an antenna and you aren't getting great reception.

Whatever it is, rescanning does sound like the best solution now.

Is it a JPG file? I'm wondering if the problem might be excessive JPG
compression? A JPG Quality setting too low (Adobe), or a JPG Compression
setting too high (Paint Shop Pro) is a very common problem, and conceivably
might be called grain in some cases. This is easy to learn to recognize it,
but excessive JPG compression generally has two appearances, one is small
"blocks" in smooth featureless areas (walls, skies), and the other is dark
smudges surrounding sharp edges of detail. Overall a very "unclear"
appearance.
You are welcome to email a sample to me at fulton @ scantips. com, if
it would help to see what you see.

 

[Heather W]

Heather,
The Visioneer 8100 is irrelavant UNLESS it was the scanner
used for this previously scanned photo?

PaintShop and PhotoShop are NOT the actual scanning software. When you open
these software's to scan an image, your scanner opens another software which
came from the factory with that scanner?

There have been many discussions here and in the Photoshop NG's about
attempts to clean up bad quality scans and the overall consenesus is dismal.
I've had very grainy images which were both the result of moire and just a
bad photo print (in many instances from a variety of reasons.) I've
attempted to clean some very grainy images which were scanned on an older
scanner and software which did not have the moire removal option with newer
softwares and my efforts were in vain.

Here's some links that may help (however, I believe your best result would
be in a fresh scan
[these first two links are very long and may be broken requiring copying and
pasting)
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...&as_maxd=11&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=2003&lr=&hl=en

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=...&as_maxd=11&as_maxm=12&as_maxy=2003&lr=&hl=en

http://www.santarosa.edu/~bheiman/photoshop/moire.html

http://www.retouchpro.com/

http://www.reindeergraphics.com/tutorial/chap4/fourier04.html

http://www.polaroid.com/service/software/poladsr/poladsr.html

http://graphicssoft.about.com/cs/photoshop/ht/apsremovemoire.htm

hopefully some others will come along and provide their insights.

Thanks for the links. I'll have to check them out. Oh, and the Visioneer
was used for the previous scan as well as this one, so you would think
that the results should be the same.

Heather

 

[Heather W]

Whatever it is, rescanning does sound like the best solution now.

Is it a JPG file? I'm wondering if the problem might be excessive JPG
compression? A JPG Quality setting too low (Adobe), or a JPG Compression
setting too high (Paint Shop Pro) is a very common problem, and conceivably
might be called grain in some cases. This is easy to learn to recognize it,
but excessive JPG compression generally has two appearances, one is small
"blocks" in smooth featureless areas (walls, skies), and the other is dark
smudges surrounding sharp edges of detail. Overall a very "unclear"
appearance.
You are welcome to email a sample to me at fulton @ scantips. com, if
it would help to see what you see.

I saved the file as a PSP file, so JPEG compression isn't the problem. I
have tried scanning and re-scanning this pic and I just can't get a
clear scan from this clear picture.

Heather

 

[Wayne Fulton]

I saved the file as a PSP file, so JPEG compression isn't the problem. I
have tried scanning and re-scanning this pic and I just can't get a
clear scan from this clear picture.

It's just a regular photo? A snapshot or a studio portrait? No clue, but
assuming others do scan, and this one wont scan, then it must be different in
some way. Studio portraits often have a textured paper surface that can cause
reflection problems.

 

[Ken Weitzel]

I saved the file as a PSP file, so JPEG compression isn't the problem. I
have tried scanning and re-scanning this pic and I just can't get a
clear scan from this clear picture.

Hi...

Possible that you've inadvertantly set the dpi way
too high? That would give you the effect of a
very grainy picture. If you don't have your scanner
installed at the moment, a quick experiment would be
to use psp to resize to something reasonable, like
perhaps 800 x ???, and see what happens.

Ken

 

[lostinspace]

Heather,
Here's a link to the features of the Visioneer.
http://www.shentech.com/vion81scusbp.html
This scanner is at the "minimum" four-year-old technology.
I kinda doubt if the moiré application upon scanning is available in the
software. (It's difficult to imagine what a improvement this makes in
quality as compared to using the dust-noise after-tool, unless you have two
scans side by side to compare.)

Here's link to a PDF on installing the scanner.
http://memorialfolders.com/technical/installing.htm
Visioneer's very brief explanation on cleaning the scanner glass (pg 42) is
insufficient.
I do plenty of scanning and I'm here to tell you that it is most difficult
to get the glass clean and streak free on "both sides."
My most current scanner was taken apart when brand new and after only one
scan because there was a terrible haze across the entire glass. The best
method of determining cleanliness of the glass is by opening the scanner
when the light is on.

I've learned to clean mine every 4-6 weeks. That may be overkill however the
quality of scans and improvement after cleaning is quite apparent to me.
Wayne has a section on cleaning the glass as well:
http://www.scantips.com/faq3.html#clean

 

[Don Phillipson]

I have a picture that doesn't look grainy at all. I have tried scanning
it so that I can print copies and every time I do this the output is
really, really grainy. I have tried scanning in a 4x6 as well as an
8x10, but no matter what size I start with and no matter how clear the
original hardcopy the end result on both my computer screen and the
printer paper is grainy.

Repost with more detail about your settings e.g.
-- hardware and software
-- how many dots per inch
-- what (screen) filters were set ?

The general question is whether this experience is
new to you. Have you scanned similar pictures
that looked OK?

 

[Heather W]

It's just a regular photo? A snapshot or a studio portrait? No clue, but
assuming others do scan, and this one wont scan, then it must be different in
some way. Studio portraits often have a textured paper surface that can cause
reflection problems.

They were both taken with the same Canon camera. They are not studio
portraits.

Heather

 

[Heather W]

Hi...

Possible that you've inadvertantly set the dpi way
too high? That would give you the effect of a
very grainy picture. If you don't have your scanner
installed at the moment, a quick experiment would be
to use psp to resize to something reasonable, like
perhaps 800 x ???, and see what happens.

Ken

I tried as you suggested and resized it to 800 x 950. The print out was
so tiny and grainy that it just looked dreadful.

Heather

 

[Heather W]

Repost with more detail about your settings e.g.
-- hardware and software
-- how many dots per inch
-- what (screen) filters were set ?

The general question is whether this experience is
new to you. Have you scanned similar pictures
that looked OK?

Hardware: Visioneer 8100

Software: Unknown. I don't have the scanner installed at the moment.
I'll dig around and try to find the installation CD, so that I can try
to find out what it is running.

DPI: 400

Screen Filters: none

Well, the experience is not new to me. I have had scans that looked good
and scans that have looked bad. More good than bad pictures have been
scanned with this particular scanner and I really want a good scan of
this photo.

Heather

 

[Ken Weitzel]

I tried as you suggested and resized it to 800 x 950. The print out was
so tiny and grainy that it just looked dreadful.

Heather

Hi...

Thanks for trying, sorry to waste your time.

Something is really really weird, though, because 800 pixels
wide should (virtually) fill your monitor screen ???

Ken

 

[DSphotog]

Hardware: Visioneer 8100

Software: Unknown. I don't have the scanner installed at the moment.
I'll dig around and try to find the installation CD, so that I can try
to find out what it is running.

DPI: 400

Screen Filters: none

Well, the experience is not new to me. I have had scans that looked good
and scans that have looked bad. More good than bad pictures have been
scanned with this particular scanner and I really want a good scan of
this photo.

Heather
--
Bargain Martian Bargain Finder Directory
http://www.bargainmartian.com
-----------------------
Out of this world bargains from leading merchants can be found in this
comprehensive directory of deals, rebates, bargains, and money-saving
offers. Why spend hours searching for a bargain when we have done the
work for you?

Heather (also my daughter's name),

You might try posting a link to the image so we can see what you're dealing
with. That should lead to more informed responses.

Best,
Dave

 

[lostinspace]

"Something is really really weird, though, because 800 pixels wide should
(virtually) fill your monitor screen ???"

Ken,
NOBODY is going to be able to assist Heather until she provides
complete details and explanations, regardless oh how lengthy she believes
them to be.

She has time and again used the word "scan" when in fact the images were
derived from a Cannon Digital Camera (as she explained to Wayne.)
This reply confused the hell out of me!
I'm left with another incomplete explanation added to the already incomplete
assumptions from previous incomplete explanations :-((

1) If she's scanning an image?
2) Is she scanning it from a print she made (a no no) of the previous image
from the camera?
a) does she have the original scan and what is the quality of the
original scan?
3) If a print, what kind and quality, printer, paper, ink?
4) what did she size the image to prior to printing?

In any event her most recent reply to you implies that it's not a VIEW she
desires after all, rather a print!
From what type of printer, paper, ink, and how was the image sized and from
what source prior to printing.

In all fairness, me tinks we are wasting our time on assumptions and
niceties due to a "beginners" lack of method or providing complete details.
And with that Adios!

 

[Wayne Fulton]

I'm left with another incomplete explanation added to the already incomplete
assumptions from previous incomplete explanations :-((

Scanning a print printed on an inkjet printer was going to be my next guess,
as a futile attempt to think of something grainy. If Heather could post a
sample image online, so someone could see it, it could only help
understanding what the problem might be.

 

[Heather W]

Ken,
NOBODY is going to be able to assist Heather until she provides
complete details and explanations, regardless oh how lengthy she believes
them to be.

She has time and again used the word "scan" when in fact the images were
derived from a Cannon Digital Camera (as she explained to Wayne.)
This reply confused the hell out of me!
I'm left with another incomplete explanation added to the already incomplete
assumptions from previous incomplete explanations :-((

1) If she's scanning an image?
2) Is she scanning it from a print she made (a no no) of the previous image
from the camera?
a) does she have the original scan and what is the quality of the
original scan?
3) If a print, what kind and quality, printer, paper, ink?
4) what did she size the image to prior to printing?

In any event her most recent reply to you implies that it's not a VIEW she
desires after all, rather a print!
From what type of printer, paper, ink, and how was the image sized and from
what source prior to printing.

In all fairness, me tinks we are wasting our time on assumptions and
niceties due to a "beginners" lack of method or providing complete details.
And with that Adios!

I never said they were from a Canon digital camera. I said that both
pictures were taken with the SAME Canon camera. It is a professional
quailty 35mm camera.

Oh, and I am far from being a beginner. I have worked with computers for
several years as well as with computer graphics.

I was just confused as to why a prefectly clear photo lab print will not
scan in to my computer clearly, so that I can work on the photo and then
print an enlargement.

Please don't get your panties in a twist just because you thought I said
digital when I clearly did not.

Heather

 

[Heather W]

Scanning a print printed on an inkjet printer was going to be my next guess,
as a futile attempt to think of something grainy. If Heather could post a
sample image online, so someone could see it, it could only help
understanding what the problem might be.

I have uploaded a piece of the photo to:

http://www.bargainmartian.com/scan.jpg

It is a piece of my shirt. I don't want to upload the whole photo
because, well, I don't want everyone and their brother to have a picture
of me.

Ideas are welcome.

Heather