Can my PC have 4 IDE hard-drives?

[Andrew J. Rozsa]

have 4 external (1394) enclosures with Maxtor drives in them (120GB).
My experience with external boxes has not been very good. Eventually
they all seem to fail. The drives seem to be OK, once I remove them
and put them inside a desktop box. Maybe I am buying cheap enclosures.

The PC I am building is based on a 865PEDAP MoBo.

The ICH5 chipset supports:
- 2 parallel ULTRA ATA100 sockets
- 2 serial ATA sockets

I have 2 IDE hard-drives drives already connected to one of the IDE
sockets. A floppy and a DVD-ROM drive on the second. The Serial ATA
sockets on the Mobo are empty, but a RAID SATA PCI adaptor takes care
of the two small scuzzi drives. The IDE drives are jumpered for CS and
I am using a 80-wire cable.

I don’t care if I have the SATA. They are an “inheritance” from the
Mobo’s server days.

During boot up I see:

Primary Master: WDC
Primary Slave: None
Secondary Master: None
Secondary Slave: None

The system storage, after boot up, looks like this:

WDC WD1200BB-00CAA1 [Hard drive] (120.03 GB) -- drive 0
WDC WD1000BB-00CAA0 [Hard drive] (100.03 GB) -- drive 1
WDC WD40 0BB-75DEA0 SCSI Disk Device (40.00 GB) -- drive 2
LaCie Group SA LaCie Hard Drive FireWire+ IEEE 1394 SBP2 Device [Hard
drive] (250.06 GB) -- drive 3
USB 2.0 Flash Disk USB Device (1.00 GB) -- drive 4
ST316002 1A USB Device [Hard drive] (160.04 GB) -- drive 5
NEC DVD_RW ND-3550A [CD-ROM drive]
3.5" format removable media [Floppy drive]

Local Drive Volumes (Drive Manager) are assigned thusly:

c: (NTFS on drive 0) 120.02 GB 115.09 GB free
d: (FAT32 on drive 1) 100.00 GB 44.09 GB free
e: (NTFS on drive 2) 40.00 GB 39.04 GB free
f: (FAT32 on drive 5) 160.00 GB 29.08 GB free
h: (FAT32 on drive 3) 250.00 GB 14.66 GB free

I remember something about 4 “devices” being the limit for IDEs, but
don’t remember whether it was 4 devices total, or up to 4 hard-drives.
I guess I could take out the floppy drive, put a hard-drive in its
place and use a USB or FireWire external floppy. But that still leaves
me with an extra drive.

I really want at least two more of the IDE drives that used to be in
1394 enclosures inside the desktop box, if I can. So much so, in fact,
that I am willing to build a second PC, if I have to and share one set
of I/O devices via a KVM switch. If I must.

1. First, what in the world is happening during boot-up – how come the
BIOS doesn’t see any of the drives except the SATA (as one drive)?

2. Secondly, can one put 4 (four) IDE hard-drives AND the floppy & the
DVD-ROM drive (I got the space) on one Mobo? I would yank the SATA.

3, The two IDE sockets on the MoBo are colored red and white. The
cable used for the floppy and DVD-ROM ends in a red plug. Any
significance to this?

4. Is there some type of conversion method (cable, adapter card) that
would allow me to install 2 IDE drives in the place of the SATA
drives?


TIA

Andrew
Best,

Andrew

 

[Rod Speed]

have 4 external (1394) enclosures with Maxtor drives in them (120GB).
My experience with external boxes has not been very good. Eventually
they all seem to fail. The drives seem to be OK, once I remove them
and put them inside a desktop box. Maybe I am buying cheap enclosures.

Very likely.

The PC I am building is based on a 865PEDAP MoBo.

The ICH5 chipset supports:
- 2 parallel ULTRA ATA100 sockets
- 2 serial ATA sockets

I have 2 IDE hard-drives drives already connected to one of the IDE
sockets. A floppy and a DVD-ROM drive on the second. The Serial
ATA sockets on the Mobo are empty, but a RAID SATA PCI adaptor
takes care of the two small scuzzi drives. The IDE drives are
jumpered for CS and I am using a 80-wire cable.

I don't care if I have the SATA. They are an "inheritance" from the
Mobo's server days.

During boot up I see:

Primary Master: WDC
Primary Slave: None
Secondary Master: None
Secondary Slave: None

Likely you have all except the first one with a drive type of NONE.
You should have that AUTO.

The system storage, after boot up, looks like this:

WDC WD1200BB-00CAA1 [Hard drive] (120.03 GB) -- drive 0
WDC WD1000BB-00CAA0 [Hard drive] (100.03 GB) -- drive 1
WDC WD40 0BB-75DEA0 SCSI Disk Device (40.00 GB) -- drive 2
LaCie Group SA LaCie Hard Drive FireWire+ IEEE 1394 SBP2 Device [Hard
drive] (250.06 GB) -- drive 3
USB 2.0 Flash Disk USB Device (1.00 GB) -- drive 4
ST316002 1A USB Device [Hard drive] (160.04 GB) -- drive 5
NEC DVD_RW ND-3550A [CD-ROM drive]
3.5" format removable media [Floppy drive]

Local Drive Volumes (Drive Manager) are assigned thusly:

c: (NTFS on drive 0) 120.02 GB 115.09 GB free
d: (FAT32 on drive 1) 100.00 GB 44.09 GB free
e: (NTFS on drive 2) 40.00 GB 39.04 GB free
f: (FAT32 on drive 5) 160.00 GB 29.08 GB free
h: (FAT32 on drive 3) 250.00 GB 14.66 GB free

I remember something about 4 "devices" being the limit for IDEs,

Nope, only because most motherboards only have 2 ATA ports, two drives each.

Nothing to stop you having a PCI ATA card for more drives.

but don't remember whether it was 4 devices total,
Yes.

or up to 4 hard-drives.

Nope, its IDE devices.

I guess I could take out the floppy drive, put a hard-drive
in its place and use a USB or FireWire external floppy.
But that still leaves me with an extra drive.

I really want at least two more of the IDE drives that used
to be in 1394 enclosures inside the desktop box, if I can.

Yes you can, just get a PCI ATA card.

So much so, in fact, that I am willing to build a second PC, if I have
to and share one set of I/O devices via a KVM switch. If I must.

You dont have to go that route. It can be convenient if you dont
want to have a fan cooling the drives tho. That many drives will
see the drives getting pretty hot if you fill all the drive bays with
drives with no space between the drives without a fan.

1. First, what in the world is happening during boot-up - how come the
BIOS doesn't see any of the drives except the SATA (as one drive)?

You've got the drive type set to NONE in the bios.

Win will find the other drives as it boots.

2. Secondly, can one put 4 (four) IDE hard-drives AND the
floppy & the DVD-ROM drive (I got the space) on one Mobo?

Not wth that motherboard.

I would yank the SATA.

3, The two IDE sockets on the MoBo are colored red and white. The cable
used for the floppy and DVD-ROM ends in a red plug. Any significance to this?
Nope.

4. Is there some type of conversion method (cable, adapter card) that
would allow me to install 2 IDE drives in the place of the SATA drives?

Yes, a PCI IDE card. In addition to the SATA drives if you like.

 

[Fabien LE LEZ]

I have 2 IDE hard-drives drives already connected to one of the IDE
sockets. A floppy and a DVD-ROM drive on the second.

Uh? What kind of "floppy" can be plugged on a 40/80 IDE cable?

I remember something about 4 “devices” being the limit for IDEs

There's no "absolute limit".

One IDE (PATA) socket = 1 80-wire cable = 2 devices.
If you have 2 PATA sockets and 2 SATA sockets, you can put up
to 2x2+2 = 6 hard disks (but no optical drive then).

On my PC, including my Promise controller, I have 4 PATA sockets and 2
SATA sockets. So I could have 10 hard drives.

1. First, what in the world is happening during boot-up – how come the
BIOS doesn’t see any of the drives except the SATA (as one drive)?

The CS (cable select) maybe?
Try putting one drive as the master, and another as the slave.

3, The two IDE sockets on the MoBo are colored red and white. The
cable used for the floppy and DVD-ROM ends in a red plug. Any
significance to this?

None.
The only thing is, if the motherboard is old, you may have trouble
booting from a PATA device that's not the master on the primary port.
With recent motherboards there's usually no such problem.

4. Is there some type of conversion method (cable, adapter card) that
would allow me to install 2 IDE drives in the place of the SATA
drives?

I've seen some converters to plug SATA drives on PATA controllers, but
not the other way around. But that might exist.

WDC WD1200BB-00CAA1 [Hard drive] (120.03 GB) -- drive 0
WDC WD1000BB-00CAA0 [Hard drive] (100.03 GB) -- drive 1
WDC WD40 0BB-75DEA0 SCSI Disk Device (40.00 GB) -- drive 2

My advice: try to sell those, and buy a 320-GB hard disk instead.
Simpler, less noisy, and you even might earn some money if you bargain
well.

If that's not possible, a PCI PATA controller might be the best
solution.
I've got a Promise Ultra133 TX2 myself, but you can find something
cheaper if you're short on money.
Or, maybe a Promise 150 TX2plus would be better for the future, since
it has one PATA socket (for two drives) + two SATA sockets.

 

[Arno Wagner]

Uh? What kind of "floppy" can be plugged on a 40/80 IDE cable?

It could be an IDE floppy, e.g. an LS120.

There's no "absolute limit".

I believe there is, but it is simething like 256 or higher.

One IDE (PATA) socket = 1 80-wire cable = 2 devices.
If you have 2 PATA sockets and 2 SATA sockets, you can put up
to 2x2+2 = 6 hard disks (but no optical drive then).

On my PC, including my Promise controller, I have 4 PATA sockets and 2
SATA sockets. So I could have 10 hard drives.

I have made good experiences with both Promise ATA and SATA non-RAID
controllers.

The CS (cable select) maybe?
Try putting one drive as the master, and another as the slave.

Are the drives seen in the BIOS setup? If so, maybe they are
just disabled for booting.

None.

Some bothched attempt to signal they are different, but without
conveying any true information. Or maybe aestetic reasons...

The only thing is, if the motherboard is old, you may have trouble
booting from a PATA device that's not the master on the primary port.
With recent motherboards there's usually no such problem.

I've seen some converters to plug SATA drives on PATA controllers, but
not the other way around. But that might exist.

They exist. Look for some older prostings from me with google
groups. Not too reliable or compatible in my experience.

However, you wrote:

WDC WD1200BB-00CAA1 [Hard drive] (120.03 GB) -- drive 0
WDC WD1000BB-00CAA0 [Hard drive] (100.03 GB) -- drive 1
WDC WD40 0BB-75DEA0 SCSI Disk Device (40.00 GB) -- drive 2

My advice: try to sell those, and buy a 320-GB hard disk instead.
Simpler, less noisy, and you even might earn some money if you bargain
well.

If you get something not from WD or Maxtor, you may even increase
reliability ;-)

If that's not possible, a PCI PATA controller might be the best
solution.
I've got a Promise Ultra133 TX2 myself, but you can find something
cheaper if you're short on money.

The Ultra100 TX2 is as fast in practice and you can sometimes
get it even cheaper.

Or, maybe a Promise 150 TX2plus would be better for the future, since
it has one PATA socket (for two drives) + two SATA sockets.

I would stay away from that. At least under Linux it is problematic,
sicne it needs special drivers. I would expect that the Windows
drivers may also have troubles that are not present with the
pure ATA or SATA contrllers.

Arno

 

[Folkert Rienstra]

Uh? What kind of "floppy" can be plugged on a 40/80 IDE cable?

You new to computers?

There's no "absolute limit".

Actually there is from the old PC days.
The limit is 2 IDE class controllers, ie 4 drives.
Which is why add-in/non_cpu_chipset IDE controllers identify as SCSI.
This changed with SATA which have their own SATA class.

One IDE (PATA) socket = 1 80-wire cable = 2 devices.
If you have 2 PATA sockets and 2 SATA sockets, you can put up
to 2x2+2 = 6 hard disks (but no optical drive then).

On my PC, including my Promise controller, I have 4 PATA sockets and 2
SATA sockets. So I could have 10 hard drives.


The CS (cable select) maybe?
Try putting one drive as the master, and another as the slave.


The only thing is, if the motherboard is old,

It's not that old by a long shot.

you may have trouble booting from a PATA device that's not the
master on the primary port.

Which has what to do exactly with the devices not showing up?

With recent motherboards there's usually no such problem.

And not with that one either.
And if none of the PATA drives is seen it's obviously booting from the
SATA array.

I've seen some converters to plug SATA drives on PATA controllers, but
not the other way around.

Uhuh. Wanna try that again?

But that might exist.

Think again.

WDC WD1200BB-00CAA1 [Hard drive] (120.03 GB) -- drive 0
WDC WD1000BB-00CAA0 [Hard drive] (100.03 GB) -- drive 1
WDC WD40 0BB-75DEA0 SCSI Disk Device (40.00 GB) -- drive 2

My advice: try to sell those, and buy a 320-GB hard disk instead.
Simpler, less noisy, and you even might earn some money if you bargain
well.

If that's not possible, a PCI PATA controller might be the best solution.
I've got a Promise Ultra133 TX2 myself, but you can find something
cheaper if you're short on money.
Or, maybe a Promise 150 TX2plus would be better for the future, since
it has one PATA socket (for two drives) + two SATA sockets.

 

[Folkert Rienstra]

It could be an IDE floppy, e.g. an LS120.

I believe

Your beliefs are your problem, babblebot.

there is, but it is simething like 256 or higher.

How about the bios device number limit for fixed-diskdrives,
(and no, it is not "simething like 256 or higher").

I have made good experiences with both Promise ATA and SATA non-RAID
controllers.

Are the drives seen in the BIOS setup?

Can you read, babblebot?

If so, maybe they are just disabled for booting.

Whatever that is supposed to mean.

Some bothched attempt to signal they are different, but without
conveying any true information. Or maybe aestetic reasons...



They exist. Look for some older prostings from me with google groups.

Not too reliable or compatible in my experience.

Used integrated on many a sata drive and not a problem there at all.

However, you wrote:

WDC WD1200BB-00CAA1 [Hard drive] (120.03 GB) -- drive 0
WDC WD1000BB-00CAA0 [Hard drive] (100.03 GB) -- drive 1
WDC WD40 0BB-75DEA0 SCSI Disk Device (40.00 GB) -- drive 2

My advice: try to sell those, and buy a 320-GB hard disk instead.
Simpler, less noisy, and you even might earn some money if you bargain
well.

If you get something not from WD or Maxtor, you may even increase
reliability ;-)

If that's not possible, a PCI PATA controller might be the best solution.
I've got a Promise Ultra133 TX2 myself, but you can find something
cheaper if you're short on money.

The Ultra100 TX2 is as fast in practice and you can sometimes
get it even cheaper.

Or, maybe a Promise 150 TX2plus would be better for the future, since
it has one PATA socket (for two drives) + two SATA sockets.

I would stay away from that.

What you do is your problem, babblebot.

At least under Linux it is problematic,

O ye Blasphemist !

sicne it needs special drivers.

Every new controller needs new drivers, numbot, so what else is new.

I would expect that the Windows drivers may also have troubles
that are not present with the pure ATA or SATA controllers.

So because Linux ****ed up so must Windows. Good thinking, babblebot.

 

[Rod Speed]

You new to computers?

Actually there is from the old PC days.
Nope.

The limit is 2 IDE class controllers, ie 4 drives.

Wrong, as always.

Which is why add-in/non_cpu_chipset IDE controllers identify as SCSI.

Wrong, as always. There was no cpu
chipset IDE controllers in the old PC days.

And the reason they get identified as SCSI is a different reason entirely.

This changed with SATA which have their own SATA class.

It's not that old by a long shot.

Which has what to do exactly with the devices not showing up?

And not with that one either.
And if none of the PATA drives is seen

One of them is seen, stupid.

it's obviously booting from the SATA array.

Uhuh. Wanna try that again?

Think again.

However, you wrote:

WDC WD1200BB-00CAA1 [Hard drive] (120.03 GB) -- drive 0
WDC WD1000BB-00CAA0 [Hard drive] (100.03 GB) -- drive 1
WDC WD40 0BB-75DEA0 SCSI Disk Device (40.00 GB) -- drive 2

My advice: try to sell those, and buy a 320-GB hard disk instead.
Simpler, less noisy, and you even might earn some money if you
bargain well.
If that's not possible, a PCI PATA controller might be the best
solution. I've got a Promise Ultra133 TX2 myself, but you can find
something cheaper if you're short on money.
Or, maybe a Promise 150 TX2plus would be better for the future, since
it has one PATA socket (for two drives) + two SATA sockets.

 

[Andrew J. Rozsa]

:|> On Sun, 27 Aug 2006 19:49:04 -0500, Andrew J. Rozsa <[email protected]>:
:|> [....]
:|> you may have trouble booting from a PATA device that's not the
:|> master on the primary port.
:|
:|Which has what to do exactly with the devices not showing up?
:|
:|> With recent motherboards there's usually no such problem.
:|
:|And not with that one either.
:|And if none of the PATA drives is seen it's obviously booting from the
:|SATA array.

Which is exactly what's happening.

I, originally, intended to install and boot up from the SATA RAID.
Started out OK, but at some point Windows ask to be installed again
and, having spent 2 days getting 2 old drives work on my son's PC, I
panicked and let it go ahead and install itself on the PATA (C drive),
too. I don't understand RAID (other than the principle of it) so I was
afraid that I wiped out the first install. So now I have TWO installs
of Win 2000 on the IDE PATA, the other on the SATA.

There is a huge black-hole in my understanding of what's happening,
but at least am up and running and all major software and hardware are
working. I know it's foolish, but it's a temporary workaround.

I gotta have at least one system going so I can manage the router
(actually DHCP) from it for the rest of the family. Everyone else
(including an XBox) is wireless and depends on my system, which is
wired to the access point. So I will probably build a second system
(got the box, power supply, MoBo, cables, optical drives, mass
storage, etc) for it, get it going and then return to this one and do
it right.

I am learning as fast as I can.

Thanks you for helping me.
Best,

Andrew

 

[Folkert Rienstra]

have 4 external (1394) enclosures with Maxtor drives in them (120GB).
My experience with external boxes has not been very good. Eventually
they all seem to fail. The drives seem to be OK, once I remove them
and put them inside a desktop box. Maybe I am buying cheap enclosures.

The PC I am building is based on a 865PEDAP MoBo.

The ICH5 chipset supports:
- 2 parallel ULTRA ATA100 sockets
- 2 serial ATA sockets

I have 2 IDE hard-drives drives already connected to one of the IDE
sockets. A floppy and a DVD-ROM drive on the second. The Serial ATA
sockets on the Mobo are empty,

but a RAID SATA PCI adaptor takes care of the two small scuzzi drives.

Not according to the drive model number.

The IDE drives are jumpered for CS and I am using a 80-wire cable.

I don’t care if I have the SATA. They are an “inheritance” from the
Mobo’s server days.

During boot up I see:

Primary Master: WDC
Primary Slave: None
Secondary Master: None
Secondary Slave: None

The system storage, after boot up, looks like this:

WDC WD1200BB-00CAA1 [Hard drive] (120.03 GB) -- drive 0
WDC WD1000BB-00CAA0 [Hard drive] (100.03 GB) -- drive 1

WDC WD40 0BB-75DEA0 SCSI Disk Device (40.00 GB) -- drive 2

That is not SATA, AFAICT.

And if E: is 40GB then it likely is RAID1 (not that it matters).

LaCie Group SA LaCie Hard Drive FireWire+ IEEE 1394 SBP2 Device [Hard drive] (250.06 GB) -- drive 3
USB 2.0 Flash Disk USB Device (1.00 GB) -- drive 4
ST316002 1A USB Device [Hard drive] (160.04 GB) -- drive 5
NEC DVD_RW ND-3550A [CD-ROM drive]
3.5" format removable media [Floppy drive]

Local Drive Volumes (Drive Manager) are assigned thusly:

c: (NTFS on drive 0) 120.02 GB 115.09 GB free
d: (FAT32 on drive 1) 100.00 GB 44.09 GB free
e: (NTFS on drive 2) 40.00 GB 39.04 GB free
f: (FAT32 on drive 5) 160.00 GB 29.08 GB free
h: (FAT32 on drive 3) 250.00 GB 14.66 GB free

[snip]

 

[Folkert Rienstra]

.]
you may have trouble booting from a PATA device that's not the
master on the primary port.

Which has what to do exactly with the devices not showing up?

With recent motherboards there's usually no such problem.

And not with that one either.
And if none of the PATA drives is seen it's obviously booting from the
SATA array.

Which is exactly what's happening.

I, originally, intended to install and boot up from the SATA RAID.
Started out OK, but at some point Windows ask to be installed again
and, having spent 2 days getting 2 old drives work on my son's PC, I
panicked and let it go ahead and install itself on the PATA (C drive),
too. I don't understand RAID (other than the principle of it) so I was
afraid that I wiped out the first install. So now I have TWO installs
of Win 2000 on the IDE PATA,

the other on the SATA.

What SATA.

There is a huge black-hole in my understanding of what's happening,
but at least am up and running and all major software and hardware are
working.

I know it's foolish, but it's a temporary workaround.

What is? What's wrong with this situation
(apart from the PATA drives not visible from BIOS)?

I gotta have at least one system going so I can manage the router
(actually DHCP) from it for the rest of the family. Everyone else
(including an XBox) is wireless and depends on my system, which is
wired to the access point. So I will probably build a second system
(got the box, power supply, MoBo, cables, optical drives, mass
storage, etc) for it, get it going and then return to this one

and do it right.

Depends on what is 'wrong'.

I am learning as fast as I can.

Thanks you for helping me.

I'm not entirely sure with what.

As for the drives not showing up in BIOS, that is rather strange.
In my BIOS setup all drive entries are at 'NONE' but the optical
drives are nonetheless reported. I don't have IDE diskdrives though.
Obviously your IDE controller isn't disabled since your drives are
working in Windows.

I do have an AWARD version 4 bios though and yours is version 6.
Unfortunately I couldn't get your boards BIOS to show in Award's
Bios viewer so can't be of much help there.