Can I make a meaningfull performance uprgrade with the old MSI 6119 motherboard with AGP video card

[Richard]

http://global.msi.com.tw/index.php?func=proddesc&prod_no=332&maincat_no=1

That's my motherboard: MSI 6119

http://ati.amd.com/products/ragepro/xpert98/specs.html

Fitted with ATI 8Mb XPERT 98 2x Video Accelerator Card.

http://searchna.ati.com/promosearch...&x=31&y=2&sp_p=all&sp-x-1=col&sp_f=ISO-8859-1

Search results for AGP 2x search string.

Where "AGP 2x" apppears in the results, I presume I can use any video card
associated with that search string? Is that correct?

I'm hoping that I can buy a pre-owned AGP video card that will work with my
motherboard, and significantly improve graphics performance. Just don't know
if this is possible with such an old motherboard.

My PC is Pentium II running at 350Mhz, with 256MB RAM.

I'm not a gamer. I's like to use CAD programs though.

Know little about these matters.

Thanks for your help. Rich.

 

[Richard]

I'm not a gamer. I's like to use CAD programs though.

Please don't pay too much attention to the CAD comment.

Any worthwhile improvement will be usewful. At the moment I do have some
problems with certain downloads fromYouTube. Picture often just a freeze and
some steaky lines. Imagine it's my video card.

Will eventually, not too long from now will get new motherboard. But if I
can get a cheap pre-owned video card that will improve things for now, I'll
go for that.

 

[Richard]

http://searchna.ati.com/promosearch...&x=31&y=2&sp_p=all&sp-x-1=col&sp_f=ISO-8859-1

Search results for AGP 2x search string.

http://support.amd.com/us/kbarticles/Pages/737-18872ATIAGPGraphicsCards-AGPComplianceDetails.aspx

I think that's the better page.

I take it that the MSI 6119 has AGP 2x, and that where "2x" apppears I can
more or less use the asspociated card.

But, I cannot see my card - the ATI 8MB Xpert98 AGP 2x. That originally fed
into a PCI 3D Accelerator Card (Voodoo 2).

Why cannot I see the Xpert 98 video card in that list? Rich

 

[Richard]

http://support.amd.com/us/kbarticles/Pages/737-18872ATIAGPGraphicsCards-AGPComplianceDetails.aspx

I think that's the better page.

I take it that the MSI 6119 has AGP 2x, and that where "2x" apppears I can
more or less use the asspociated card.

But, I cannot see my card - the ATI 8MB Xpert98 AGP 2x. That originally
fed
into a PCI 3D Accelerator Card (Voodoo 2).

Why cannot I see the Xpert 98 video card in that list? Rich

Ahh, the ATI 8MB Xpert98 uses the Rage Pro Turbo Chipset.

So, that's the second one from the top here:

http://support.amd.com/us/kbarticles/Pages/737-18872ATIAGPGraphicsCards-AGPComplianceDetails.aspx

Going to bed, it's late, I'll try to sort it out tomorrow.

 

[Augustus]

http://global.msi.com.tw/index.php?func=proddesc&prod_no=332&maincat_no=1

That's my motherboard: MSI 6119

http://ati.amd.com/products/ragepro/xpert98/specs.html

Fitted with ATI 8Mb XPERT 98 2x Video Accelerator Card.

http://searchna.ati.com/promosearch...&x=31&y=2&sp_p=all&sp-x-1=col&sp_f=ISO-8859-1

Search results for AGP 2x search string.

Where "AGP 2x" apppears in the results, I presume I can use any video card
associated with that search string? Is that correct?

I'm hoping that I can buy a pre-owned AGP video card that will work with
my
motherboard, and significantly improve graphics performance. Just don't
know
if this is possible with such an old motherboard.

My PC is Pentium II running at 350Mhz, with 256MB RAM.

I'm not a gamer. I's like to use CAD programs though.

Know little about these matters.

Thanks for your help. Rich.

A PII 350 and an ATI 8Mb card and you want better performance by going to a
AGP2X card? Surely this is not a serious post.

 

[Richard]

A PII 350 and an ATI 8Mb card and you want better performance by going to
a AGP2X card? Surely this is not a serious post.

Remember I'm learing here.

"AGP1X, AGP2X, AGP4X, and AGP8X refer to the speed of data transfers on the
AGP Interface while AGP1.0, AGP2.0, and AGP3.0 refer to specific releases of
the AGP."

It seems I've got an AGP1X specification card, that's the ATI Xpert98 8MB
card, with RAGE PRO/ TURBO chipset. AGP speeds supported by this card are
2x.

The question is, is there scope for a *meaningful performance upgrade* by
getting a better grahics card?

Possibly not, but I'm asking.

My *motherboard* has AGP 66/133MHz 3.3v device support . That's AGP1.0
release and speedwise - AGP1x & AGP2x.

If I look at this table I see the better cards that will work with my
motherboard:

http://support.amd.com/us/kbarticles/Pages/737-18872ATIAGPGraphicsCards-AGPComplianceDetails.aspx


If pretty sure the AGP socket in my MSI06119 board is fitted with a AGP 3.3V
(2X) slot. Therefore my *motherboard* support A and D only:

A: AGP 3.3V (2X) graphics card in an AGP 3.3V (2X) slot.
D: Universal AGP (2X/4X) graphics card in an AGP 3.3V (2X) slot.

G: AGP 3.0 (4X/8X) graphics card in an AGP 3.3V (2X) slot (NOT SUPPORTED).

The outcome of all this is that my motherboard supports:

RAGE LT PRO
RAGE XL
RAGE 128
RAGE FURY MAXX
FIREGL 1

Okay, would there be any meaningful performance upgrade is I swopped RAGE
PRO/RAGE PRO TURBO card for say a RAGE 128 or FIREGL 1?

 

[Richard]

I am normally the first to try to get as much as possible out of old stuff
but in this case it is really not worthwhile. I am sorry. Buy a Mobo with
everything onboard and You'll be off incredibly much better then with the
stuff You are using now.

Yours sincerely,
Rene

Yes, what you say is of no great surprise, because I'm kind of getting the
vibes, but I just need someone to, well,
confirm it. :c)

 

[Richard]

I am normally the first to try to get as much as possible out of old stuff
but in this case it is really not worthwhile. I am sorry. Buy a Mobo with
everything onboard and You'll be off incredibly much better then with the
stuff You are using now.

If you had in mind to build a PC that could work with CAD, such as
SolidWorks, would you not go for a dedicated PCIe video card? I suppose.

 

[Augustus]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember
that Nvidia cards up to the Geforce 6XXX series were 3.3 volt tolerant.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?
Submit=Property&Subcategory=48&Description=&Type=&N=2010380048
&srchInDesc=&MinPrice=&MaxPrice=60&OEMMark=0&PropertyCodeValue=696%
3A9639&PropertyCodeValue=3055%3A20548

http://preview.tinyurl.com/c7ee6t

One of these will probably work an provide a lot more performance than
what you've got now.

Bill

Not on a Pentium II 350 system it won't....it's a complete waste of time.
What this guy needs to do is spend some coin on a modern m/b, processor, ram
and real FireGL or Quadro video card. If it's a serious post, which I have
doubts about. These are recommended specs for Solid Works....

"The system requirements[3] for SolidWorks depend partially upon which
packages[4] or modules are installed in each customer's machine. An
oversimplification would be to say that one should have a PC with an Intel
Core2 Duo, 1.8GHz, 2GB RAM, 20GB HD, Windows XP SP2 and Microsoft Internet
Explorer 6 SP2. The supported graphics cards[5] is a topic beyond the scope
of this article."

I find it very hard to believe that anyone remotely serious about installing
or using an AutoCAD program would engage the n/g in a discussion revolving
around upgrading such a system.

 

[Richard]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember
that Nvidia cards up to the Geforce 6XXX series were 3.3 volt tolerant.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?
Submit=Property&Subcategory=48&Description=&Type=&N=2010380048
&srchInDesc=&MinPrice=&MaxPrice=60&OEMMark=0&PropertyCodeValue=696%
3A9639&PropertyCodeValue=3055%3A20548

http://preview.tinyurl.com/c7ee6t

One of these will probably work an provide a lot more performance than
what you've got now.

Bill

Hi. Oh, perhaps there is some mileage in a video card upgrade! :c)

I've got a AGP1.0 - 3.3V (2X) slot in my motherboard. This is NOT a
universal slot.

http://www.playtool.com/pages/agpcompat/agp.html

"If an AGP card fits in an AGP expansion slot then they are compatible."

"The AGP connectors on the motherboard are keyed to prevent insertion of AGP
cards which would be damaged if plugged in. An AGP 3.3V motherboard
connector can only accept AGP cards which have the 3.3V slot. If you try to
insert a card without a 3.3V slot into an AGP 3.3V motherboard connector,
the card will bump into the connector key and cannot be inserted. Likewise
an AGP 1.5V motherboard connector can only accept AGP cards with the 1.5V
slot. An AGP universal motherboard connector has no keys and therefore can
accept any kind of AGP card. An AGP card with both voltage slots can be
plugged into any kind of AGP motherboard connector. If you can plug an AGP
card into an AGP motherboard connector, then neither the card nor the
motherboard will be damaged (assuming they obey the AGP specifications)."

What I have to is establish what cards fit my AGP socket.

*AGP 3.3V Motherboard*

In practice:

1 AGP 3.3v card- *Works at 3.3v*
2 AGP1.5v card - Won't fit in slot
3 Universal AGP card - *Works at 3.3v*
4 Universal 1.5v AGP3.0 card - Won't fit in slot
5 Universal AGP 3.0 card- *Works at 3.3v*

So okay cards are:

Cards that have a 3.3v slot.
Cards that have a 3.3v and a 1.5v slot.
Certain Universal Cards - but not Universal 1.5v.

Or alternatively, cards that *won't work* are:

1 Cards that won't fit in the slot.

So, really that's (basically) the criterion that establishes whether a card
will or will not work. But in practice other issues may prevent it from
working.

"One practical matter which must be considered is the fact that some of the
original AGP 1.0 motherboards do not provide enough power to operate some
newer AGP video cards reliably. For example, some of the original
motherboards using the first chipsets which supported AGP (like the Intel
440LX and 440BX) can become unstable if you install video cards which draw
lots of power through the AGP slot. The motherboards can't always supply the
necessary current for the newer video cards. So if you're adding a video
card to an AGP 1.0 motherboard then it's a good idea to install a video card
which doesn't consume very much power. "

My motherboard has 440BX chipset. So, I ought to use a card that does not
use much power.

I take it then that the multiplier itself is not so significant. I think you
may find that even some cards that are 8x will fit into an AGP3.3v AGP slot.
Of course, I think my motherboard only has speeds up to 2x.

"Unfortunately, the technical specifications for a video card rarely use
these terms properly (if at all) to describe the video card. They usually
just list the fastest AGP multipliers it supports: "8X, 4X", or "4X". From
that information and the voltage slots on a picture of the video card, you
can often figure out exactly what it is."

Okay so in figuring out which cards work we can look at the multipliers and
a picture of the card to see the slots.

Let's try it:

Here are 4x/8x cards:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=2010380048 1069609639&name=AGP 4X/8X

SAPPHIRE 100258L 4x/8x 1.5v and 0.8v - NO GOOD - NO 3.3v

EVGA 256-A8-N401-LR GeForce 4x/8x - 3.3v and 1.5v slot - GOOD

XFX PVT44AWANG GeForce 6200 - 3.3v and 1.5v slot - GOOD

JATON 3DForce6200Twin GeForce 6200 - 3.3v and 1.5v slot - GOOD

When I say GOOD, I've not thought of the power issue, so that's
*provisionally* good..

http://support.amd.com/us/kbarticles/Pages/737-18872ATIAGPGraphicsCards-AGPComplianceDetails.aspx

Discounting for the moment issues like power, if I understand correct, every
board on that list that has 3.3v signalling, provisionally comes into a
catagory of compatible. True?

 

[Benjamin Gawert]

* Richard:

The question is, is there scope for a *meaningful performance upgrade* by
getting a better grahics card?

Yes, there is. Get a Nvidia TNT2, Geforce 2MX or Radeon 7500. All of
them are old and outdated by todays standards but are much better than
the ancient Rage Pro series which is now over a decade old and was bad
already when it came out. The listed cards should be available for
almost nothing today.

Of course this doesn't change the fact that for around 30USD you can get
a much better computer (P3 1GHz range with decent gfx card of that aera)
that runs circles around your current setup, no matter what gfx card you
put in.

Benjamin

 

[Benjamin Gawert]

* Bill:

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to remember
that Nvidia cards up to the Geforce 6XXX series were 3.3 volt tolerant.

Yes and no. Yes for the Geforce 6 GPUs that have a native AGP interface
(i.e. some 6800GTs), no for the PCIe versions that use the AGP bridge.

However, anything above a Geforce 2 is completely and utterly silly in
such a system.

Benjamin

 

[Richard]

* Richard:

Yes, there is. Get a Nvidia TNT2, Geforce 2MX or Radeon 7500. All of them
are old and outdated by todays standards but are much better than the
ancient Rage Pro series which is now over a decade old and was bad already
when it came out. The listed cards should be available for almost nothing
today.

Of course this doesn't change the fact that for around 30USD you can get a
much better computer (P3 1GHz range with decent gfx card of that aera)
that runs circles around your current setup, no matter what gfx card you
put in.

Benjamin

I've not decided what to do, and I get your drift about getting a new
motherboard, but I am curious about an answer to the question.

(I am in fact going to build a second PC with a more modern motherboard in
the new tower case I've bought).

I've mentioned CAD. If I could, and it it would work in my system, I'd try
to get an old card that was meant for CAD. Of course, not that I could ever
run SolidWorks or anything like that mind you.

Video cards made for CAD concentrate on specifications associated with the
use of CAD of course. I think the FIREGL 1 might work with my old PC. I'm
assuming that this card might be better than the ones you mention for a
lightweight CAD program - but then you wonder would a CAD programme, that my
PC could handle, be able to take advantage of a video card made for CAD even
if it's an old card. Difficult question and the answer could well be: No!
:c)

A card might be allright, and an improvement, but my motherboard too old to
run a decent CAD program that actually took advantage of a dedicated CAD
video card and it's specs. Yes, I'm likely to be in that situation with my
old motherboard.

 

[Richard]

Video cards made for CAD concentrate on specifications associated with the
use of CAD of course. I think the FIREGL 1 might work with my old PC.

Problems:

Decent CAD-type cards often require more power that my 440BX chipset can
reliably deliver.

Motherboard too old and slow to run a CAD program that could take advantage
of a good CAD video card.

That's about it with the CAD-type video cards I think.

So, any "meaningful improvement" would *not* likely come via an old, but
dedicated CAD video card, but the kind of cards you mention, Nvidia TNT2,
Geforce 2MX or Radeon 7500 etc. Which are probably game cards I think.

I don't play games, or watch DVD's, so when I think about it, although
their might be some "meaningful improvement", I'm finding it hard to imagine
a precise situation where that would be true. :c)

Possibly watching video from YouTube and possibly that's it. Probably not
using a CAD program.

 

[GMAN]

Problems:

Decent CAD-type cards often require more power that my 440BX chipset can
reliably deliver.

Motherboard too old and slow to run a CAD program that could take advantage
of a good CAD video card.

That's about it with the CAD-type video cards I think.

So, any "meaningful improvement" would *not* likely come via an old, but
dedicated CAD video card, but the kind of cards you mention, Nvidia TNT2,
Geforce 2MX or Radeon 7500 etc. Which are probably game cards I think.

I don't play games, or watch DVD's, so when I think about it, although
their might be some "meaningful improvement", I'm finding it hard to imagine
a precise situation where that would be true. :c)

Possibly watching video from YouTube and possibly that's it. Probably not
using a CAD program.

Also, the older FireGL didnt do DirectX. I have a FireGL4 and its OpenGL only.

 

[Benjamin Gawert]

* Richard:

I've mentioned CAD. If I could, and it it would work in my system, I'd try
to get an old card that was meant for CAD.

That would be a Quadro 2 MXR/Pro or a FireGL 8700/8800 then.

Of course, not that I could ever
run SolidWorks or anything like that mind you.

You can, but only very old versions.

Video cards made for CAD concentrate on specifications associated with the
use of CAD of course. I think the FIREGL 1 might work with my old PC.

Yes, it does, and no, I would not recommend it. The FireGL 1 is really
old and slow card that only does OpenGL and nothing else. It was bad
when it was new, and it is even worse today. The latest drivers are
probably as old as your computer.

I'm
assuming that this card might be better than the ones you mention for a
lightweight CAD program

No, it's not. In fact, any card I mentioned is way better than the
FireGL 1/2/3/4 series.

A card might be allright, and an improvement, but my motherboard too old to
run a decent CAD program that actually took advantage of a dedicated CAD
video card and it's specs. Yes, I'm likely to be in that situation with my
old motherboard.

So why not investing say 50 bucks and getting a way better computer from
ebay?

Benjamin

 

[Benjamin Gawert]

* Richard:

Problems:

Decent CAD-type cards often require more power that my 440BX chipset can
reliably deliver.

No, they don't. The Nvidia Quadro series or the ATI FireGL 8700 and
later use the same amount of power like their Geforce/Radeon counterparts.

Benjamin

 

[Richard]

* Richard:


That would be a Quadro 2 MXR/Pro or a FireGL 8700/8800 then.


You can, but only very old versions.


Yes, it does, and no, I would not recommend it. The FireGL 1 is really old
and slow card that only does OpenGL and nothing else. It was bad when it
was new, and it is even worse today. The latest drivers are probably as
old as your computer.



No, it's not. In fact, any card I mentioned is way better than the FireGL
1/2/3/4 series.


So why not investing say 50 bucks and getting a way better computer from
ebay?

Benjamin

Exactly. That what I really should do. Don't mess about with my really old
mboard but get a half decent mboard.