Can I boot of an XP System disk, nested in a logical volume

[A CP/M to XP/P-traveller]

Hi, I'm in a bit of a fix.

I have a non-working Windows XPP-system disc (assigned C and I have a
clone of that one on a secondary HDD (assigned D. Non-working, of course.
Accoring to support, both C: and D: requires "a bit of registry tweaking" and
a Windows 98-startdisk -- using that specific version of /fixmbr. Something
that I'm not going to do.

So, in a logical volume, I have a freshly installed, working and active
Windows XPP-system disc (assigned E -- or at least %SYSTEMROOT% says so. An
E-disc I'm hoping to keep as a final C:-disc, if all goes well.

Question 1: Can I boot of a logical volume with a system disc (E in it?

Question 2: Deleting the C: and D:-discs (primary partitions) won't XPP MBR
still 'remember' the then deleted C: and D:-disc, keeping me stuck on a E:
assigned-system disc?

Question 3: Is it possible to *** safely *** convert the logical disc into a
bootable dynamic volume, keeping the E:-system disc intact and working?

I might add, I want to keep it as Windows XPP standard as possible; no boot
managers or the likes.

// MPT

 

[philo]

Hi, I'm in a bit of a fix.

I have a non-working Windows XPP-system disc (assigned C and I have a
clone of that one on a secondary HDD (assigned D. Non-working, of course.
Accoring to support, both C: and D: requires "a bit of registry tweaking" and
a Windows 98-startdisk -- using that specific version of /fixmbr. Something
that I'm not going to do.

So, in a logical volume, I have a freshly installed, working and active
Windows XPP-system disc (assigned E -- or at least %SYSTEMROOT% says so. An
E-disc I'm hoping to keep as a final C:-disc, if all goes well.

Question 1: Can I boot of a logical volume with a system disc (E in it?

Question 2: Deleting the C: and D:-discs (primary partitions) won't XPP MBR
still 'remember' the then deleted C: and D:-disc, keeping me stuck on a E:
assigned-system disc?

Question 3: Is it possible to *** safely *** convert the logical disc into a
bootable dynamic volume, keeping the E:-system disc intact and working?

I might add, I want to keep it as Windows XPP standard as possible; no boot
managers or the likes.

// MPT

If your current OS is installed to the E: drive
you can delete anything you want on drive D:
As to drive C: you will need to keep your root directory entries :

ntdetect.com ntldr and boot.ini

otherwise your system won't boot.

Other than that (and your pagefile) you can delete anything else on your C:
drive


As to converting to a dynamic disk...I would not even give that one a try


CP/M works just fine without dynamic volumes
and so does Windows <G>

 

[John John]

See inline for more comments and answers.

First we should make sure that we are on the same page and that we use
the same terms else we will all be hopelessly confused! The Microsoft
nomenclature defines the following:

*Boot Partition*
The boot partition contains the Windows operating system and its support
files. By default, the Windows operating system files are in the WINDOWS
folder, and the supporting files are in the WINDOWS\System32 folder.
The boot partition can be, but does not have to be, the same as the
system partition. There will be one, and only one, system partition, but
there will be one boot partition for each operating system in a
multi-boot system.

Note On dynamic disks, this is known as the boot volume.


*System Partition*
The system partition refers to the disk volume that contains the
hardware-specific files that are needed to start Windows, such as Ntldr,
Boot.ini, and Ntdetect.com. The system partition can be, but does not
have to be, the same volume as the boot partition.

Note On dynamic disks, this is known as the system volume.


*Logical Drive*
A volume you create within an extended partition on a basic disk. A
logical drive can be formatted and assigned a drive letter. Only basic
disks can contain logical drives, and a logical drive cannot span
multiple disks.

For the purpose of this discussion when referring to basic or MBR disks
the terms partition and volume are interchangeable. However, when
referring to Dynamic Disks the term volume is solely used, Dynamic Disks
do not contain partitions, they contain Dynamic Volumes or Logical Volumes.

Hi, I'm in a bit of a fix.

I have a non-working Windows XPP-system disc (assigned C and I have a
clone of that one on a secondary HDD (assigned D. Non-working, of course.
Accoring to support, both C: and D: requires "a bit of registry tweaking" and
a Windows 98-startdisk -- using that specific version of /fixmbr. Something
that I'm not going to do.

So, in a logical volume, I have a freshly installed, working and active
Windows XPP-system disc (assigned E -- or at least %SYSTEMROOT% says so. An
E-disc I'm hoping to keep as a final C:-disc, if all goes well.

That won't happen. The boot volume must always keep the drive letter
assigned to it when Windows was installed. If you want to change the
drive letter onto which Windows is installed you must reinstall the
operating system. Furthermore, when Windows is installed drive letter
assignments are based on the order in which the drives are enumerated
and on a predetermined set of rules. Based on the predetermined set of
rules a logical drive can practically not or almost never be assigned
drive letter C:. Perhaps you mean something else by the term "logical
volume", see above for definitions.

Question 1: Can I boot of a logical volume with a system disc (E in it?

Once again, we need to make sure that we are using correct terms, see
above for definitions. Windows can be installed and booted on a logical
volume and the boot volume letter assignment does not matter. The
System volume however cannot be a logical volume, it must be an active
primary partition.

Question 2: Deleting the C: and D:-discs (primary partitions) won't XPP MBR
still 'remember' the then deleted C: and D:-disc, keeping me stuck on a E:
assigned-system disc?

The MBR does not store or remember drive letters. Drive letters are
stored in the Mount Manager's database. The Mount Manager's database is
stored in the registry at:

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\MountedDevices

Keeping the Mount Manager's database in the registry ensures drive
letter persistence on NT operating systems. As long as the disk
signature remains the same and as long as the drive letter assignments
remain in the Mount Manager's database the drives will persistently keep
their letter assignment. The point is moot however because the drive
letter onto which Windows is installed cannot be changed anyway.

Question 3: Is it possible to *** safely *** convert the logical disc into a
bootable dynamic volume, keeping the E:-system disc intact and working?

I assume you mean "basic" disk? Yes, but you cannot have multiple
operating systems (multi-boot) on the disk. When you convert the disk
to dynamic the partition entries for all but the current Boot and System
partitions will be removed.

I might add, I want to keep it as Windows XPP standard as possible; no boot
managers or the likes.

It's too late for that, your setup is hardly standard as it is now and
it will be barely standard after you convert the disk to dynamic!

John

References/Sources:

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/100525
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/306559
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/314470
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/234048
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/309044
And The Windows 2000 Help Files.

 

[A CP/M to XP/P-traveller]

Thank's for your quick response.

We'll that settles it, I'll boot of Partition Magic or some other kind of
magic and fix it that-a-way.

Regarding MBR remembering: It's been a long time since I messed with
partitions like this, but in the back of my head I have this fragment about
boring registry hands-on editing, 'derived Disk ID's' and the 'Master Boot
Sector' -- that's S as in 'Senile'. Oddly enough, something as quaint as '4
bytes' and '01B8h' also pop's up, when thinking about it. Any idea?

A follow-up on drive letter assignments: Is it possible that a cloned 'XP
system disk' could end-up as a 'Blue Screen of Death' -- not knowing which
partition it actually belongs to?

A final question: Is there an environment variable in XP that tells me where
the boot-up actually happens?

// MPT

 

[A CP/M to XP/P-traveller]

Thank's for a quick answer.

I imagine that you've been around for a while; spot-on, on what I'm looking
for.

A question: Anything as the SYS-command still hanging around -- in XP?

// MPT

 

[philo]

Thank's for a quick answer.

I imagine that you've been around for a while; spot-on, on what I'm looking
for.

A question: Anything as the SYS-command still hanging around -- in XP?

// MPT


"

<snip>

You'd need to use your XP cd to boot to the recovery console

there are two options:

fixboot

fixmbr


Though I've been around for a while...
i still don't know much <G>

 

[John John]

Thank's for your quick response.

We'll that settles it, I'll boot of Partition Magic or some other kind of
magic and fix it that-a-way.

Regarding MBR remembering: It's been a long time since I messed with
partitions like this, but in the back of my head I have this fragment about
boring registry hands-on editing, 'derived Disk ID's' and the 'Master Boot
Sector' -- that's S as in 'Senile'. Oddly enough, something as quaint as '4
bytes' and '01B8h' also pop's up, when thinking about it. Any idea?

Yes, that is where the 4 byte long disk signature is held, from offsets
1B8h through 1BBh.
http://thestarman.pcministry.com/asm/mbr/Win2kmbr.htm I have never ever
needed to directly edit this, and I wouldn't ever know how to edit these
bytes because they are never the same, as far as I know they are just
randomly generated and I haven't a clue how they are arrived at.

These are 4 of the famous 6 bytes that fdisk /mbr rewrites, it rewrites
the disk signature at bytes 440 to 443 along with the two bytes 444 &
445. Rewriting the disk signatures allows or causes the Mount Manager
to reassign drive letters. The Windows 2000/XP fixmbr command does not
rewrite these bytes, it rewrites the first 440 byte and doesn't touch
the disk signature, fdisk /mbr rewrites the first 446 bytes and zeros
out the signature.

A follow-up on drive letter assignments: Is it possible that a cloned 'XP
system disk' could end-up as a 'Blue Screen of Death' -- not knowing which
partition it actually belongs to?

Possible I suppose so, but most of the time it will will either go in a
reboot loop or boot and give Low Virtual Memory errors messages. One
reason for the drive letter change on cloned drives is to keep the
parent drive hooked up the first time the clone is booted, being that
the clone has the same Mount Manager database, and being that the Mount
Manager *always* respects drive letter assignments, it will see the
parent drive and its valid disk signature and assign the C: drive letter
to the original C: drive, so there will be no C: letter available for
the clone. Disconnecting the parent drive the first time the clone is
booted will invalidate the Mount Managers drive letter assignment, it
will not see a disk corresponding with the signature in its database so
it will be able to reassign the now invalid C: drive letter to the
clone. After this first boot the old (parent) disk can be hooked up
again, the Mount Manager will honour the drive letters of the clone disk
and assign different drive letters to the parent disk. This is where
fdisk /mbr can repair the drive letter mixup, by rewriting the disk
signature it will cause the Mount Manager to reassign drive letters
based on its predetermined set of rules.

A final question: Is there an environment variable in XP that tells me where
the boot-up actually happens?

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean. Where the "boot-up
happens" is determined by ntldr, it determines this by reading the
information in the boot.ini file, it will determine the where the
boot-up happens when you make your selection at the boot menu, or by
using the default= information if you do not make a selection. You may
find these interesting:

The PC Boot Process - Windows XP.
http://dotnetjunkies.com/WebLog/unknownreference/articles/12284.aspx

Chapter 19 - What Happens When You Start Your Computer
http://www.microsoft.com/resources/...orkstation/reskit/en-us/booting.mspx?mfr=true

Some of the information in Chapter 19 is a bit dated but the basics all
still apply to Windows XP.

John

 

[John Dunster]

Hello people,

Here's the situation:

Disk 1

C: Boot partition (contains XP), logical (in extended)
E: System partition (contains boot files), primary, active
F: Data, primary
G: Data, primary

Disk 2

D: Data, primary

I would like to make C: the boot AND system partition. For this I need to convert the logical partition to a primary and make it active.

I googled quite a bit but can't find decisive info. I think I need to:

1. copy the C: partition to a temporary partition
2. remove the C: partition
3. create a new primary partion with the letter C: and mark it active
4. copy the data back
5. make C: bootable (ntldr, boot.ini etc).

Don't want to reinstall XP again, just got it all up to my liking...

Any tips much appreciated!

PS: I used to have 4 primary partitions on disk 1. I decided last week I wanted to do a fresh XP install. My mistake was to REMOVE the C: partition, I guess XP setup created the extended !#!@#!@ partition after that. I should have only formatted it...

 

[Twayne]

Unless you have something like Partition Magic you havent' much choice
but to start over again.
Since you find the reinstall/rebuild to be such a problem, and it is
a hassle, I agree, you should invest in imaging software like
Symantec's Ghost or Acronis True Image and learn how to put together a
good backup methodology. Then things like this become simple tasks.
BootItNG is OK too if you're the techie type, but if not, look to the
other ones mentioned.

Backups are the answers to most of your problems here. Images are an
even better solution.

HTH