build or buy?

[jeffc]

True, but intentional, since he probably won't save money on a whole
single system, which we both know. It is however, much cheaper to own
and live with computers, in the long run, if you're a builder.

That might or might not be. For all the talk about how important it is to
be able to swap components, it really doesn't happen that much. Sure,
people add memory and change video cards, but when people want a new CPU,
they always end up getting a new motherboard and memory too. That's because
they don't upgrade every month (it's too expensive and inefficient
time-wise). They upgrade every year or 2, and by that time a whole new wave
of technology has come along. Your argument is valid, but in practice a lot
weaker than most people will admit.

It definitely is! If you're knowledgable about computers. And he
seemed to be, to me, since he professed to have changed components.
Being able to change the specs of a system is highly desirable. Do
that to some brand name, and the support situation can quickly turn
into a nightmare.

If you're talking about swapping out components later on a Dell, and then
you run into problems, yes you're going to have problems getting support.
And I don't blame them. A Frankenstein system is not what you bought from
them, and they shouldn't have to support it. If you want support for a
system out of the box, you're going to get it. On your homebuilt system, of
course not. Maybe I have the OP wrong - maybe he's willing to take the
plunge. But I certainly don't see any short-term money savings in it, which
is what he seemed to be after.

 

[EWhite]

Listen all this arguing about build or buy depends on wether you want the
cheapest computer you can get or the best computer for the money.

1. A system builder pretty much cannot beat a bottom of the barrel system.
No matter how much you want to you will spend upwards of 600 dollars on
building a system & generally closer to 1000. (Unless you have some unusual
connection) However this system is much better than the 1000 system that you
could get from a large company. And the more you are willing to spend the
greater the return. Ex. my dual Xeon system w/ 1gb ram & 500mb raid array
would cost over $6,500 from dell (I specked it). I built it for about $2500
all with info from the links I provided.

2. Tech support is NOT FREE outside the US. because 1-800 numbers don't
work. Don't know about you but last time I called for tech support I was on
the phone for about 20- 30 min & that adds up in long distance charges.

3. Sorry to break your heart but the average person cannot expect to "Game"
with a $400 dollar machine call Dell they'll recommend a system in the
neighborhood of $1000 and quite likely closer to $2000.

4. Lets face facts. If he can swap out parts he likely has an OS from
Microsoft that he legally owns that he can install on the new machine as
whatever he is going to be replacing will probably be tossed into the
garbage or at least a corner.

And finally 5. People who post to these forums asking if they should Build a
system are generally looking for people to say it isn't that hard if you
think it through. That being said spending a day on the computer looking at
specs & dream systems is not enough to build your own PC. But if someone
lurks in forums, checks out http://www.tomshardware.com/ &
http://www.anandtech.com and other sites for a couple months researching how
to build a system they should not have a problem assembling there own rigs.

X my best advice is to go with parts just shy of cutting edge, they are the
best value.
And buy NAME-BRAND components for your FIRST venture. They may be a couple
dollars more but the odds of some small Taiwanese companies floppy disk
giving you problems is smaller than Sony's.
& if you run into problems post again here. Look how many responses you got
on 1 simple question.
~Eric

 

[Ruel Smith (Big Daddy)]

Listen all this arguing about build or buy depends on wether you want the
cheapest computer you can get or the best computer for the money.

1. A system builder pretty much cannot beat a bottom of the barrel system.
No matter how much you want to you will spend upwards of 600 dollars on
building a system & generally closer to 1000. (Unless you have some
unusual connection) However this system is much better than the 1000
system that you could get from a large company. And the more you are
willing to spend the greater the return. Ex. my dual Xeon system w/ 1gb
ram & 500mb raid array would cost over $6,500 from dell (I specked it). I
built it for about $2500 all with info from the links I provided.

Around Christmas, many retail outlets run "6 hour" sales etc., usually the
day following Thanksgiving. They offered insane deals this year. My brother
and my best friend, Steve, bought an ATi 9600 card for $59, a LiteOn 52X
CD-R/RW for $20, 160GB HD for $69, and even a complete eMachines computer
with monitor for $299. You have to send in multiple rebates to get these
prices, but they're legit.

The downside to building this way is that you must make concessions. You
must use the parts that you can get your hands on. For instance, if you get
a Pacific Digital CD burner, which brands like that usually use a
generation old drive from someone else like Sony, you won't have that
Plextor you've been dying to get. The HDD's offered at that price weren't
SATA and you may even be forced to get drives that don't match your case.
If you're willing to make these compromises, you can build a really nice
system for cheap.

Not everything was purchased at such a bargain. My brother opted for SATA
RAID with (2) 80GB drives and got an Asus P4P800 Deluxe mobo with a P4 3.0C
cpu and some nice Corsair memory. Still, he built a system that nice for
$900. The best things about building for both my brother and Steve was that
they got awesome systems for what they paid, they know everything that went
into the machine, they can, and have, overclock their machines (can't do
that on a Dell, Gateway, HP, Compaq, or any other proprietary system), and
they learned how to build a machine (after I helped them).

2. Tech support is NOT FREE outside the US. because 1-800 numbers don't
work. Don't know about you but last time I called for tech support I was
on the phone for about 20- 30 min & that adds up in long distance charges.

Have second computer handy and get on the internet.

3. Sorry to break your heart but the average person cannot expect to
"Game" with a $400 dollar machine call Dell they'll recommend a system in
the neighborhood of $1000 and quite likely closer to $2000.

Absolutely. $400 will get you little. Even the systems they built couldn't
be serious gaming machines, as the graphics card was a concession. At least
a 9600 Pro card would make it a better game machine. My older 2.6A P4 with
non dual-channel memory, but a GeForce Ti4600 card smokes their 3D
framerates.

4. Lets face facts. If he can swap out parts he likely has an OS from
Microsoft that he legally owns that he can install on the new machine as
whatever he is going to be replacing will probably be tossed into the
garbage or at least a corner.

And finally 5. People who post to these forums asking if they should Build
a system are generally looking for people to say it isn't that hard if you
think it through. That being said spending a day on the computer looking
at specs & dream systems is not enough to build your own PC. But if
someone lurks in forums, checks out http://www.tomshardware.com/ &
http://www.anandtech.com and other sites for a couple months researching
how to build a system they should not have a problem assembling there own
rigs.

X my best advice is to go with parts just shy of cutting edge, they are
the best value.
And buy NAME-BRAND components for your FIRST venture. They may be a
couple dollars more but the odds of some small Taiwanese companies floppy
disk giving you problems is smaller than Sony's.
& if you run into problems post again here. Look how many responses you
got on 1 simple question.

This is excellent advice. Is building hard? No. However, many times you'll
run into a major snag and you'll have to sort it out. I've ran into a major
snag on 2 of the 3 machines I've built. However, through percerverance, I
got it all straightened out and everything is fine. You must be wiling to
put up with this. Also, it takes time to build. The roughest thing, IMO, is
putting all those wires on for the front panel connectors for the HDD
lights, power switch, USB, 1394, etc. They are a PITA.

I researched for 2 months, looking everywhere for reviews. Then, when I
found what I thought I wanted, I went to the newsgroup for that particular
item and saw what everyone was crying about. I originally sought to build
an AMD system for my first build, using an Abit KR7A board. However, people
had lots of problems with sound cards conflictin with the chipset, couldn't
use all 4 slots for memory at the same time, and more. I opted to go for a
P4 system using, what was then, a state-of-the art 845D based board from
Gigabyte, the GA-8IRXP instead. I followed that board in the Gigabyte
newsgroup and found people were having manual overvolt reboot problems.
That was the only problem I found they were having in any numbers. Yes,
some people have problems getting some parts working, but I mean genuine
problems with the boards themselves. I bought the board thinking that
they'd get this sorted out in a BIOS upgrade and I wouldn't OC the board
until then. It took a long time, but they eventually fixed it, but not
without limiting the overvoltage option from the previous 1.85 volts to
1.75 volts. Overall, I think I made a very wise decision. Research pays
off.

I've witnessed many people who built using sub-par boards from companies
like PC Chips have way too many problems for my tastes. It pays to buy from
someone that has a good reputation like Asus, MSI, Gigabyte, Epox, Soyo,
DFI, Chaintech, Abit, and others.



--
Big Daddy Ruel Smith

My SuSE Linux machine uptime:
8:51am up 4 days 23:26, 2 users, load average: 0.04, 0.09, 0.06

My Windows XP machine uptime:
Something less...

 

[P T]

I built a barebones system about 13 months ago. ecs k7s5a athlon xp1700
40g etc. It's cost me way more than I expected: probably about >$700
now, I'd guess. There's always another part you need, more memory, a
scanner, more software, a joystick.
I got a monitor free: my neighbor got me one they were discarding after
an upgrade where he worked. That dumpster diving can work too: in the
last year I've seen 3 systems next to the garbage cans near me, as I
walk my dog.

Two aspects that have not been discussed yet:

-I decided to build after a local shop guy said he could assemble a
machine in 1-2 hours. I though, "I can do that." But the 2 hours did not
include learning:
Like people have said, a novice will probably spend a LOT of time
researching before he builds. I've got a good job that pays way over $20
an hour. For the value of the time I spent I probably could have bought
a $2000 system. OTOH, it became a hobby, and building teaches you a lot
about computers.
At any rate, everyone's time has a value.

-Didn't the OP say he was going overseas? I'm not sure I want to lug ANY
computer that far.

Pete

 

[jamotto]

No, I think you and most of the rest of the people in this thread are
missing the point. The point is what the OP wants, given his priorities.
This is an enthusiast newsgroup. Our priorities are normally going to be
different than the OP's. So based on the question that was asked, rather
than the question you really want to answer, what is your advice? Does this
person sound like someone who wants to install Linux? Does this person
sound like someone who is willing to spend time and/or money to figure out
what to do to get a built-from-scratch system working? Does this person
sound like someone who won't be using Windows? Does this person sound like
someone who is willing to spend a little more to get the exact components
he's searching for?

I think we need to ask the OP. Everyone is going answer the above in
different ways.

 

[tweak]

I built a barebones system about 13 months ago. ecs k7s5a athlon xp1700
40g etc. It's cost me way more than I expected: probably about >$700
now, I'd guess. There's always another part you need, more memory, a
scanner, more software, a joystick.
I got a monitor free: my neighbor got me one they were discarding after
an upgrade where he worked. That dumpster diving can work too: in the
last year I've seen 3 systems next to the garbage cans near me, as I
walk my dog.

Two aspects that have not been discussed yet:

-I decided to build after a local shop guy said he could assemble a
machine in 1-2 hours. I though, "I can do that." But the 2 hours did not
include learning:
Like people have said, a novice will probably spend a LOT of time
researching before he builds. I've got a good job that pays way over $20
an hour. For the value of the time I spent I probably could have bought
a $2000 system. OTOH, it became a hobby, and building teaches you a lot
about computers.
At any rate, everyone's time has a value.

True time is money and up to a certain point it becomes wiser to defer
to an expert.
That said one can only benefit from the knowledge gained in learning
"how to".
This knowledge is priceless when the time comes when you have to deal
with "salespersons".
Since I started learning about computers/hardware several years back
I've aqquired enough expertise where most of the sales crews in the
local computer shoppes won't even come near me when I go in for minor
parts.(If they can't screw you on a complete "system" deal they don't
want to waste the time.)
That's OK, I buy all my hardware from online sources or get it for
free. (Dumpsters are indeed a rich source of parts etc...)

-Didn't the OP say he was going overseas? I'm not sure I want to lug ANY
computer that far.

Traveling? If you have to have a tower system rather than a
laptop.(Cost is usually the biggest factor.) then build small.
I have a tiny IBM vetra mini tower that packs a big punch performance
wise. I use it on site for video work(Capturing directly to the
hardrive for both stills and video.) as well as a controller for sound
system and lights.
I bolted me a handle on the top of the tower and made a rubberized
shock base for the bottom and sides. I even made a small carry case
for it.
I use a small lcd monitor that someone gave me and a small fold up
keyboard with a trackball mouse. It all fits in the carry case along
with the cables.
Certainly not as light as laptop but a workable solution for travel.

 

[somebody]

OK you have a point. But still the main thing I got out of the OP's post
was that even if he were willing to build it with newsgroup help, I still
don't see how that's in line with saving a ton of cash.

I think this has been an good thread. Your input and the discussion
should have exposed the issues, at hand, very well.

Ancra

 

[x]

Thank you all for the excellent reply's! There have certainly been some
lively discussions.

Sorry that my first post was so short. Here is a bit of background: I am a
dabbler. I have dabbled in all my comps since 1980. My present comp was made
for me by my company's IT guru before he went to greener pastures. This comp
has been relatively stable, but whenever it locked up I had poked around
reinstalling drivers or other appropriate software. I own a legit xp-home
upgrade off a legit win 98. I have also completely stripped the mobo for
cleaning after a year of dusty operation, upgraded video boards, added a
harddrive (which took a full weekend), and replaced memory.

My situation is that I will ship my personal effects, so this is an
opportunity to build, or have built, a top notch system with a good 19-21
flat panel screen to watch downloaded movies on in English. Additionally my
13 year old boy is an avid everquest/mohaa player and would want to continue
that.

It is not that cash is a major factor, but I want to get the best
reliability from those parts as I expect to have to pay through the nose for
replacement parts when I am in Brasil.

Thank you again, and I am still leaning to buying the parts and having that
learning curve <grin>

Jon

 

[JAD]

GATEWAY BUYS eMACHINES
In a simpler time, it might have been called a marriage made in heaven. Gateway and eMachines are obviously made for each other.
Both pay rebates at the speed of mud and have tech support that would drive Freud around the bend. Of course, eMachines doesn't make
laptops, which is one good thing you can say about it. This hitch-up will make Gateway-eMachines the third largest U.S. PC maker,
behind Dell and Hewlett-Packard.

now you can really go for it and good luck

 

[jeffc]

I think we need to ask the OP. Everyone is going answer the above in
different ways.

As usual, the OP has skipped the scene, probably long ago, to leave us
arguing amongst ourselves

 

[jeffc]

3. Sorry to break your heart but the average person cannot expect to "Game"
with a $400 dollar machine call Dell they'll recommend a system in the
neighborhood of $1000 and quite likely closer to $2000.

One of my computers is a recently purchase eMachine (it was bought for me
for some services rendered). The cost after rebate (promptly received) was
$400 including monitor and printer. Subtracting the cost of those, let's
say the computer itself was $260. It had on board video, 128M RAM, 40G hard
drive, Athlon 2400+, and Windows XP. Especially since the video memory was
shared (bringing RAM down to 96M), the RAM was insufficient. So was the
video. I added a GeForce4 Ti 4200 video card (I bought it used for $60, but
let's make the cost be $100 for sake of this argument.) Then I added 256M
RAM. Memory prices vary, but let's say $60. So we're talking about $420
for a gaming computer that plays everything with the possible exception of
the very latest, most demanding games (such as an intense flight simulation
with graphics turned up.) Nice gaming "lean machine".

And finally 5. People who post to these forums asking if they should Build a
system are generally looking for people to say it isn't that hard if you
think it through.

But again, he specifically mentioned cash as an issue. I have little doubt
he could put together his own system (especially with newsgroup help.)

X my best advice is to go with parts just shy of cutting edge, they are the
best value.
And buy NAME-BRAND components for your FIRST venture. They may be a couple
dollars more but the odds of some small Taiwanese companies floppy disk
giving you problems is smaller than Sony's.
& if you run into problems post again here. Look how many responses you got
on 1 simple question.

Agreed.

 

[jeffc]

Thank you again, and I am still leaning to buying the parts and having that
learning curve <grin>

I'm glad you posted back - usually we lose the original poster after the
first post Go for it. Just make sure you have plenty of time to build
and USE the system for awhile before you leave. If you buy a case, it will
come in a box. Save that box for shipping the whole computer when you put
it together. Don't skimp too much on the power supply, nor the memory
(Kingston, Crucial, etc.)

 

[x]

Thanks Jeffc as well as everyone else. I have saved all posts, and try to
keep up on weekends.

Jon

 

[DaveinOlyWa]

you want to play games??

like what?

well most games that have come out in the past year wont run on the
Dell advertised for 699 with the integrated intel graphics chip.

keep in mind, theere is one reason why Dell keeps their prices low,
and that is because they use cheap parts.

if you want to play games dont buy a Dell.

or upgrade to one with a better graphics card.

or build your own.
i built a system that will run any game and wickedly fast at that for
950.

and it has power to spare...

P4P-800 pro Asus MB
radeon 9600 pro with 256 MB RAM
2x512 MB pc3200 DDR RAM
21" CRT

there is better, but it is only a little better for a lot more money

 

[jeffc]

you want to play games??

like what?

well most games that have come out in the past year wont run on the
Dell advertised for 699 with the integrated intel graphics chip.

keep in mind, theere is one reason why Dell keeps their prices low,
and that is because they use cheap parts.

if you want to play games dont buy a Dell.

or upgrade to one with a better graphics card.

Well that latter statement is much more reasonable, isn't it? What you want
is a system that is customizable. If you want TOTAL customization, then you
have to build your own. If you want a Dell, etc., then you have to think a
little. To get a system with a good graphics card, you're going to have to
pay a lot, more than you might want to for certain features. On the other
hand, if you get the el-cheapo on board graphics, then you haven't lost any
money when you upgrade the video for good gaming.

 

[Jeremy]

Hey everybody. I"m probably coming in on this topic after the horse has long
been beaten, autopsied, and buried. However, some people out there need
to know the benefits and drawbacks of both buying and building.

First off, there is no shame in buying a computer....unless of course it's
an HP or a Compaq. Those 2 have to be the worst i've ever seen in my 10
years working with computers. If you're gonna buy, go with either GATEWAY...or
DELL!!!!! Period. End of story...no room for discussion. That having been
said, one of the benefits of buying is the warranty that comes with a system.
If someone builds one for you, you will have to replace a part out of pocket
if it breaks. But, with a purchase, the company will replace it for free.
Tech support is tech support.....sometimes it's great and wonderful, and
sometimes it sucks. Now for a drawback---you get whatever components they
decide to put in the system. you do'nt have any granularity for choice.
you can't say hey i want the ASUS Pxx800 board along with a gig of corsair
platinum. you don't have that much control. It could or could not lead
to problems down the road.

Building----you have complete control over what goes in it. You pick the
parts if you're comfortable with assembling it or you can have someone do
it and put it together for you. But, you have control. Two drawbacks to
this.....you have no warranty with this option, and it is more expensive.
But, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR. Enough said! A benefit of this, you can
assemble parts to make the most stable system possible. You probably won'
thave that luxury with buying a system.

So.......decide what's best for you and your budget, and go kill some hardware!!!!
:-o)

 

[Dashi]

First off, there is no shame in buying a computer....unless of course it's
an HP or a Compaq. Those 2 have to be the worst i've ever seen in my 10
years working with computers. If you're gonna buy, go with either
GATEWAY...or
DELL!!!!! Period. End of story...no room for discussion.

Baloney, lots of room for discussion, many better choices available than
Gateway or Dell.

Your lack of experience with computers is showing.

That having been
said, one of the benefits of buying is the warranty that comes with a
system.
If someone builds one for you, you will have to replace a part out of
pocket
if it breaks. But, with a purchase, the company will replace it for free.

Usually for only a year, and an extended warranty is usually a suckers bet.

Building----you have complete control over what goes in it. You pick the
parts if you're comfortable with assembling it or you can have someone do
it and put it together for you. But, you have control. Two drawbacks to
this.....you have no warranty with this option, and it is more expensive.

It is not more expensive, and each part is warranted for usually a much
longer period than an assembled computer would be.


Dashi

 

[DaveinOlyWa]

if you think you can buy a Dell and upgrade it later you are in for a
big surprise.

most of their cheaper $700 computers have the integrated Intel
graphics controller (one of the worst video cards you can buy,
remember S-3 in the mid 90's)

the motherboards have no AGP port so your best scenario is "upgrading"
to a PCI card.

so many people think Dell is so cheap, well ya they are, cheaply made,
not cheaply purchased.

i just built a computer for 930$ that will run circles around anything
Dell provides for under 1200$.

i could have done it cheaper, but why?

with all the money i saved by NOT buying a Dell, i can afford to do
what i want.

 

[slower]

build, then you get really what you want


On 7 Feb 2004 08:49:57 -0500,