Build Dual Xeon or buy low-end Pentium??

[Dave (from the UK)]

I've been given a couple of 3.06 GHz Xeon processors (512 KB cache) and
was hoping to assemble a cheap PC around them for home use (to run
Windoze XP, Linux and/or Solaris x86).

I am now wondering if it is worth the expense and whether a cheap (say
£300) PC from Dell or similar would be better value, despite the fact I
am not paying for these Xeon processors.

I have bought a used dual Xeon motherboard (around £65 delivered to the
UK),

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSAA:US:11&Item=6857435615

but now realise it needs a fairly large PSU with the 8-pin 12V
connector, and also a new case as it is an extended ATX. Then I need to
buy DDR266 RAM. Since my current PC is rather old and uses something
else. It has:

Dual Pentium PIIs @ 450 MHz.
4 x CD-rewriter
36 GB SCSI disk
Half reasonable graphics card (I think)
768 MB RAM

I'm beginning to wonder if this is more expense than it is worth and
whether I would be better buying a new cheap (say £300) PC from Dell,
which would have faster memory. (The machine I am typing this on is quad
processor, so I know only too well that keeping multiple processors busy
on a home machine is difficult and very often one quicker CPU would be
better)

If you were given a couple of these processors and wanted a PC that was
a bit quicker than your old one, would you build something around them,
or just buy a new PC?

Selling the Xeon's is not an option, since I was given them for nothing
by a friend.

I've built PCs many years ago, so don't wish to do this for the fun of it.
--
Dave K MCSE.

MCSE = Minefield Consultant and Solitaire Expert.

Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: month-year@domain. Hitting reply will work
for a couple of months only. Later set it manually.

 

[Paul]

I've been given a couple of 3.06 GHz Xeon processors (512 KB cache) and
was hoping to assemble a cheap PC around them for home use (to run
Windoze XP, Linux and/or Solaris x86).

I am now wondering if it is worth the expense and whether a cheap (say
£300) PC from Dell or similar would be better value, despite the fact I
am not paying for these Xeon processors.

I have bought a used dual Xeon motherboard (around £65 delivered to the
UK),

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSAA:US:11&Item=6857435615

but now realise it needs a fairly large PSU with the 8-pin 12V
connector, and also a new case as it is an extended ATX. Then I need to
buy DDR266 RAM. Since my current PC is rather old and uses something
else. It has:

Dual Pentium PIIs @ 450 MHz.
4 x CD-rewriter
36 GB SCSI disk
Half reasonable graphics card (I think)
768 MB RAM

I'm beginning to wonder if this is more expense than it is worth and
whether I would be better buying a new cheap (say £300) PC from Dell,
which would have faster memory. (The machine I am typing this on is quad
processor, so I know only too well that keeping multiple processors busy
on a home machine is difficult and very often one quicker CPU would be
better)

If you were given a couple of these processors and wanted a PC that was
a bit quicker than your old one, would you build something around them,
or just buy a new PC?

Selling the Xeon's is not an option, since I was given them for nothing
by a friend.

I've built PCs many years ago, so don't wish to do this for the fun of it.

Your motherboard doesn't have a video card slot.

http://www.computerbrain.com/applications/search/itemdetails.asp?sku=X5DPLIGM

This board has an AGP video card slot, and uses desktop memory
(unbuffered DDR, can use ECC unbuffered for error detection).
The dimensions are 12"x9.6". About $175 USD.

PC-DL Deluxe
http://www.asus.com.tw/products4.aspx?l1=9&l2=39&l3=99&model=104&modelmenu=1

http://www.asus.com.tw/products2.aspx?l1=9&l2=-1 (the server list)

The processors are 85 watts a piece. That is 16 amps for the two
processors. You might be able to run it with a 12V@24A output
power supply.

This PSU for $84 might do the job.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817104122

The memory doesn't have to be expensive, and if you want unbuffered
ECC instead of plain unbuffered, there would be a small percentage
increase in price for that. The motherboard supports dual channel,
but you can even use a single stick of memory if you want.

I don't think your project has to be expensive. It would help
a lot, if the coolers and hardware fittings came with your
free processors. While a desktop case can probably hold that
motherboard, I don't know if there are mechanical details about
the cooling solution, that a desktop motherboard tray won't
support. I thought some Xeon coolers had some part that screwed
into the tray.

I recommend having a look on http://forums.2cpu.com for more info
about PC-DL, and potential cooling solutions.

The Dell would be boring

Paul

 

[Dave (from the UK)]

Your motherboard doesn't have a video card slot.

Ouch - I had not noticed that. Whilst high-end graphics is not something
I desire, I think I will be a bit frustrated by the on-board graphics.
I'd like to have a DVI-D connection so I can use my monitor on that and
my Sun workstation, which is only has an analogue video output.

http://www.computerbrain.com/applications/search/itemdetails.asp?sku=X5DPLIGM

This board has an AGP video card slot, and uses desktop memory
(unbuffered DDR, can use ECC unbuffered for error detection).
The dimensions are 12"x9.6". About $175 USD.

PC-DL Deluxe
http://www.asus.com.tw/products4.aspx?l1=9&l2=39&l3=99&model=104&modelmenu=1
Thanks.

http://www.asus.com.tw/products2.aspx?l1=9&l2=-1 (the server list)

The processors are 85 watts a piece. That is 16 amps for the two
processors. You might be able to run it with a 12V@24A output
power supply.

This PSU for $84 might do the job.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16817104122

The memory doesn't have to be expensive, and if you want unbuffered
ECC instead of plain unbuffered, there would be a small percentage
increase in price for that. The motherboard supports dual channel,
but you can even use a single stick of memory if you want.

I've managed to acquire 1 GB of buffered ECC for the Supermicro
motherboard, but I guess that will not work in the Asus one.

I don't think your project has to be expensive. It would help
a lot, if the coolers and hardware fittings came with your
free processors.

I suspect they do. I am not sure, but they are upgrades for Compaq servers.

While a desktop case can probably hold that
motherboard, I don't know if there are mechanical details about
the cooling solution, that a desktop motherboard tray won't
support. I thought some Xeon coolers had some part that screwed
into the tray.

I should get the CPUs today, so will look. As far as I am aware, there
is nothing like that.

I recommend having a look on http://forums.2cpu.com for more info
about PC-DL, and potential cooling solutions.
Cheers.

The Dell would be boring

True. I'd really like a dual Opteron, but that is not so cheap. (Not
helped the fact I am currently unemployed).

Paul

Thanks Paul.

--
Dave K MCSE.

MCSE = Minefield Consultant and Solitaire Expert.

Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: month-year@domain. Hitting reply will work
for a couple of months only. Later set it manually.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

If you were given a couple of these processors and wanted a PC that was
a bit quicker than your old one, would you build something around them,
or just buy a new PC?

I would not run a dual-processor board unless I was setting up a
server. It adds to the cost of everything and what do you get back,
on a machine you are using purely to run your own apps as opposed to
handling network traffic and serving apps or files?

Selling the Xeon's is not an option, since I was given them for nothing
by a friend.

I'd give them back, in that case. They're worth something, but they
aren't really the basis of a good desktop system. It's like someone
is giving you the engine out of a 2-1/2-ton truck, and you're wanting
to build a passenger car.

I've built PCs many years ago, so don't wish to do this for the fun of it.

What are you going to use this machine for? That's the place to
start, in my opinion.

Charlie

 

[Dave (from the UK)]

I would not run a dual-processor board unless I was setting up a
server. It adds to the cost of everything and what do you get back,
on a machine you are using purely to run your own apps as opposed to
handling network traffic and serving apps or files?

I know where you are coming from, but I think sometimes more than one
processor is useful. This machine (Sun Ultra 80) has four 450 MHz
UltraSPARC II processors, and I admit 4 are rarely use fully. In fact, I
have considered removing one and putting a second one in my web server.
However, finding one CPU bound process running is not unusual, so I
think two would have useful sufficiently often.

I'd give them back, in that case. They're worth something, but they
aren't really the basis of a good desktop system. It's like someone
is giving you the engine out of a 2-1/2-ton truck, and you're wanting
to build a passenger car.

Point taken.

What are you going to use this machine for? That's the place to
start, in my opinion.

Charlie

I'll probably run a combination of Windoze XP and Linux on it, although
I don't think it will get a lot of use with either operating system. In
other words, it will be off 95% of the time.

I tend to use Solaris on SPARC hardware 99% of the time here, but
unfortunately one program I do run sometimes (Mathematica) runs on
Solaris only on a 64-bit CPU, but not a 32-bit one. Mathematica will run
on a 32-bit CPU under Windoze, but I will not consider using Windows
except where absolutely necessary, due to its lack of security.

I could call Mathematica from this system, if the Xeons run Linux, so
that is a possibility. I know from some benchmarks of Mathematica

http://smc.vnet.net/timings50.html

that a 3 GHz Xeon will be a lot quicker than this 450 MHz UltraSPARC II
processor.

As you can see, I can't see it getting a lot of use. The most sensible
upgrade for me would be an Opteron system, since both my operating
system and Mathematica work well on Opteron. Just at the minute I am
unemployed, so spending out loads of money on a PC is not a high
priority. (Anyone want to employ an electronics/optics PhD with good
knowledge of Solaris admin too? No, I thought not!)


--
Dave K MCSE.

MCSE = Minefield Consultant and Solitaire Expert.

Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: month-year@domain. Hitting reply will work
for a couple of months only. Later set it manually.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I know where you are coming from, but I think sometimes more than one
processor is useful. This machine (Sun Ultra 80) has four 450 MHz
UltraSPARC II processors, and I admit 4 are rarely use fully. In fact, I
have considered removing one and putting a second one in my web server.
However, finding one CPU bound process running is not unusual, so I
think two would have useful sufficiently often.

Maybe. I suspect, however, that you are comfortable with the big iron
and you simply like it. Nothing wrong with that.

Point taken.


I'll probably run a combination of Windoze XP and Linux on it, although
I don't think it will get a lot of use with either operating system. In
other words, it will be off 95% of the time.

I tend to use Solaris on SPARC hardware 99% of the time here, but
unfortunately one program I do run sometimes (Mathematica) runs on
Solaris only on a 64-bit CPU, but not a 32-bit one. Mathematica will run
on a 32-bit CPU under Windoze, but I will not consider using Windows
except where absolutely necessary, due to its lack of security.

I could call Mathematica from this system, if the Xeons run Linux, so
that is a possibility. I know from some benchmarks of Mathematica

http://smc.vnet.net/timings50.html

that a 3 GHz Xeon will be a lot quicker than this 450 MHz UltraSPARC II
processor.

As you can see, I can't see it getting a lot of use. The most sensible
upgrade for me would be an Opteron system, since both my operating
system and Mathematica work well on Opteron. Just at the minute I am
unemployed, so spending out loads of money on a PC is not a high
priority. (Anyone want to employ an electronics/optics PhD with good
knowledge of Solaris admin too? No, I thought not!)

I would think someone would. I guess R&D is going south, eh?

I just built a system that I'm satisfied with, based on an Athlon64
3000+, which costs about $120 US. Some guy in this group said it was
a nice CPU, and he was right. I am running it at about 2.1ghz, up
from 1.8ghz default, and I don't think I'm hurting it any, because I
keep it nice and cool. Maybe I'm kidding myself.

I made some notes and put them on a web page, not as a definitive
cheap system by any means, but as one that turned out well in terms of
compatibility of parts and lack of hassles.

www.geocities.com/wilkes_charlie/new_system.htm

Those cheap OEM boxes are hard to beat, until the time comes when you
want to upgrade something or even tweak the board.

Charlie

 

[Dave (from the UK)]

Maybe. I suspect, however, that you are comfortable with the big iron
and you simply like it. Nothing wrong with that.

I would not think you would consider it "big iron" but it is a bit big
for a personal computer. I find Sun stuff far more reliable than cheap
PC equipment.

I would think someone would. I guess R&D is going south, eh?

It's not in the part of the country I am in.

I just built a system that I'm satisfied with, based on an Athlon64
3000+, which costs about $120 US. Some guy in this group said it was
a nice CPU, and he was right. I am running it at about 2.1ghz, up
from 1.8ghz default, and I don't think I'm hurting it any, because I
keep it nice and cool. Maybe I'm kidding myself.

I'm not over keen on over clocking myself. I got "bit" once when I
bought a 100baseT ethernet card for my Sun, to find it was communicating
with my PC at 10baseT, but not 100baseT. I then found the PCI slot in
the PC was overclocked, so the card was not working properly.

I made some notes and put them on a web page, not as a definitive
cheap system by any means, but as one that turned out well in terms of
compatibility of parts and lack of hassles.

www.geocities.com/wilkes_charlie/new_system.htm

Those cheap OEM boxes are hard to beat, until the time comes when you
want to upgrade something or even tweak the board.

I might at some point buy a low-end Sun Ultra 40 (single low-spec
Opteron), then later add some faster CPUs and more RAM. The base system
is not cheap, but the faster spec ones are just silly prices.

I think I'll go for the Xeon now though. The only thing I really lack
now is a power supply + possibly case. (The case is an ATX tower, but I
think the Xeon board will fit with a bit of a squeeze). Apart from the
case and power supply, I can get a dual processor Xeon up and running
for nothing.

--
Dave K MCSE.

MCSE = Minefield Consultant and Solitaire Expert.

Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: month-year@domain. Hitting reply will work
for a couple of months only. Later set it manually.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

I would not think you would consider it "big iron" but it is a bit big
for a personal computer. I find Sun stuff far more reliable than cheap
PC equipment.

Industrial products in general are more reliable than consumer
products.

It's not in the part of the country I am in.

I would think you could get lab work, then, with all these optical
cables going in everywhere.

I'm not over keen on over clocking myself. I got "bit" once when I
bought a 100baseT ethernet card for my Sun, to find it was communicating
with my PC at 10baseT, but not 100baseT. I then found the PCI slot in
the PC was overclocked, so the card was not working properly.

Yeah, overclocking can cause all kinds of expected side effects,
apparently. But I've had good luck with overclocking.

I might at some point buy a low-end Sun Ultra 40 (single low-spec
Opteron), then later add some faster CPUs and more RAM. The base system
is not cheap, but the faster spec ones are just silly prices.

I think I'll go for the Xeon now though. The only thing I really lack
now is a power supply + possibly case. (The case is an ATX tower, but I
think the Xeon board will fit with a bit of a squeeze). Apart from the
case and power supply, I can get a dual processor Xeon up and running
for nothing.

I assume you will then serve your apps to another system with a video
card, right?

It makes sense for you, because you know how to do it. I'll be
interested in anything you post about it.

Charlie

 

[Dave (from the UK)]

Industrial products in general are more reliable than consumer
products.
True.



Yeah, overclocking can cause all kinds of expected side effects,
apparently. But I've had good luck with overclocking.

That one really got me, the fact the card in the PC had worked for ages,
and the new one bought for the Sun (which was bought used) did not. It
was all too easy to suspect the used network card I'd just bought from
eBay, rather than one bought new for a PC that had been working for a
year or more.

I assume you will then serve your apps to another system with a video
card, right?

Running Linux that would be the case, but on windows I am seriously
thinking there might be a need to either swap the motherboard for one
with an AGP slot or get a PCI based graphics card - I assume they are
available. I don't think 8 MB of video ram is going to be much fun. The
machine might be less usable than my current one with 2 x 450 MHz and a
half-decent graphics card.

It makes sense for you, because you know how to do it. I'll be
interested in anything you post about it.

--
Dave K MCSE.

MCSE = Minefield Consultant and Solitaire Expert.

Please note my email address changes periodically to avoid spam.
It is always of the form: month-year@domain. Hitting reply will work
for a couple of months only. Later set it manually.

 

[Charlie Wilkes]

Running Linux that would be the case, but on windows I am seriously
thinking there might be a need to either swap the motherboard for one
with an AGP slot or get a PCI based graphics card - I assume they are
available. I don't think 8 MB of video ram is going to be much fun. The
machine might be less usable than my current one with 2 x 450 MHz and a
half-decent graphics card.

Indeed. The board and a PSU to handle it won't come cheap. But,
maybe it's the perfect setupl for mathematica, more like a workstation
than a PC. It sounds like a fun project more than a cheap one.

Charlie