BTX Technology/Native Command Queuing

[George Macdonald]

No real argument here. However it is not the daunting task some think it
is. Of course everyone here is sworn to secrecy, right?

Hey it was *really*, *really* skilled work connecting 10 or so individual
connectors to a 2x5 berg strip... in the right order of course. Then,
of course, a *real* expert is someone who's done a hot BIOS chip swap and
flash.

I'm edgy when installing RAM too. Some boards have awkward DIMM slots and
inserting it puts a lot of stress on the board.

Is it just me or is that getting worse... i.e. DIMM slots seem to be
getting stiffer and stiffer? I usually insert and remove the DIMM(s) from
all the slots a couple of times with the mbrd on a flat surface, before
mounting in the case... just to ease them up a touch.

Rgds, George Macdonald

"Just because they're paranoid doesn't mean you're not psychotic" - Who, me??

 

[nobody]

Oh, that work *so* well for DRDRAM, didn't it? Intel doesn't have that
kind of power anymore (if they ever did). I remember people (motherboard
developers)grousing at the Intel Developer's Forum when the ATX spec was
unveiled. I saw it as a good thing (compared to AT). Evidently others
finally saw it that way too, because it caught on. ...not because Intel
*forced* it. No, I *don't* think BTX will catch on. I think it's way too
expensive for the $400 PC. Servers, perhaps.

There's a small difference. Back then when INTC attempted to
establish the infamous 815 chipset and RDRAM as mainstream/performance
platform of choice, there was a ready replacement from VIA that had
133 mhz bus and used PC133. The OEMs could still use the latest and
'greatest' P3 CuMine and market them Intel Inside.
This time around, ATX cases are already stressed to the max
dissipating the heat produced by current Prescotts. Bump the speed up
a few grades, double the cores - and you just have to go BTX or resort
to some exotic cooling system. Major OEMs like DULL, HPQ etc. just
can't afford to go without the latest and greatest Intel CPU in their
lineup. Most of us in this NG know the _real_ alternative to these
space heaters - AMD. However, OEMs still doubt they can sell this
alternative to Joe Sixpack - or big IT dept. purchasing manager, for
that matter.

 

[keith]

Hey it was *really*, *really* skilled work connecting 10 or so individual
connectors to a 2x5 berg strip... in the right order of course. Then,
of course, a *real* expert is someone who's done a hot BIOS chip swap and
flash.

Please! It's not all that simple! One has to look at the colors on the
wires too! ...and guess what the pretty ones were for. Sshh!

Is it just me or is that getting worse... i.e. DIMM slots seem to be
getting stiffer and stiffer? I usually insert and remove the DIMM(s)
from all the slots a couple of times with the mbrd on a flat surface,
before mounting in the case... just to ease them up a touch.

....and the DIMM slots inbetween supports! I won't weaken the springs
(that's why tinned contacts work - rather than gold), but I do put memory
in with the motherboard supported. We'll see tomorrow how chicken I am...

 

[keith]

There's a small difference. Back then when INTC attempted to
establish the infamous 815 chipset and RDRAM as mainstream/performance
platform of choice, there was a ready replacement from VIA that had
133 mhz bus and used PC133. The OEMs could still use the latest and
'greatest' P3 CuMine and market them Intel Inside.

No, the only difference is that Intel doesn't have anything to gain from
BTX's exceptence. The thing that hasn't changed is that they still think
they can force their way into our homes.

This time around, ATX cases are already stressed to the max dissipating
the heat produced by current Prescotts. Bump the speed up a few grades,
double the cores - and you just have to go BTX or resort to some exotic
cooling system.

I disagree. People will simply refuse to play (pay) this game until thee
costs come down and ATX and conventional cooling works. I simply don't
see BTX working on the desktop. There are many other solutions for the
servers.

Major OEMs like DULL, HPQ etc. just can't afford to go
without the latest and greatest Intel CPU in their lineup.

Pehraps in the industrial/commercial market, where the costs are more
easily absorbed. I see zero penetration on "our" end of the market.

Most of us
in this NG know the _real_ alternative to these space heaters - AMD.

LOL! ...though AMD isn't guiltless here either. Technology has hit a
speed-bump.

However, OEMs still doubt they can sell this alternative to Joe Sixpack
- or big IT dept. purchasing manager, for that matter.

I'm with them. I don't see it. ...too expensive for no gain.

(Cost > allowable price) => (Outcome = not good)

 

[AJ]

I bet the next big thing will be to market home SANs (Storage Area Networks), the way I go through disk space on my
desktops and laptops, I'd love to just plug a standard IDE or SATA hard drive into an array and connect them all up through
a dedicated network.

Sounds like one grenade would take out all the systems in the house! So maybe
until all the disasters occur and people realize that centralization is usually bad
we'll see some of that. I predict instead that data will be distributed amongst
more specialized kinds of "PCs": for example, PVR seems to be just a PC, but
it's really not; it's a specialized implementation of computer technology and not
an infinitely configurable thing like a destop PC (which probably is too broadly
defined at this point in time also). The "one computer serving up the whole house"
idea sounds cost effective also, but in reality it's just a headache and conceptually
hard for users to do on their own (that is, it's not "plug-n-play").

Anywayz... I digress. I sure would like 3GB/s drives though, especially 2.5 inch ones!

AJ

 

[AJ]

Most of us in this NG know the _real_ alternative to these
space heaters - AMD.

Northwoods, while one can still obtain them. After that, maybe what you said
if Pentium-M isn't ready or imminently ready for the desktop. Intel is in a precarious
position though with the apparent threat of P4 Prescott and BTX-only vision. The ATX
and mATX market is huge and it could happen that Intel hands it over to AMD on a silver
platter and that would really separate the 2 camps in regards to system design and give
more meat to any arguments for choosing one over the other. I think AMD would indeed
"win" in that scenario. To seal it up even further, if AMD could buy ASUS, the whole
industry would be simplified and a major impediment to choosing AMD would be eventually
removed (if they executed it well). Interesting times we live in.

AJ

 

[chrisv]

Northwoods, while one can still obtain them.

8) I recently bought a half-dozen 2.4C's, for work machines.

 

[Keith R. Williams]

Sounds like one grenade would take out all the systems in the house!

If someone's pitching pineapples, the systems aren't on my worry list!
;-)

So maybe
until all the disasters occur and people realize that centralization is usually bad
we'll see some of that. I predict instead that data will be distributed amongst
more specialized kinds of "PCs": for example, PVR seems to be just a PC, but
it's really not; it's a specialized implementation of computer technology and not
an infinitely configurable thing like a destop PC (which probably is too broadly
defined at this point in time also). The "one computer serving up the whole house"
idea sounds cost effective also, but in reality it's just a headache and conceptually
hard for users to do on their own (that is, it's not "plug-n-play").

Management is easier if the data is concentrated. Though most of us
don't "manage" our data so it likely doesn't matter.

Anywayz... I digress. I sure would like 3GB/s drives though, especially 2.5 inch ones!

Why don't you just wish for solid-state nonvolatile drives, while
you're at it?

 

[Kai Harrekilde-Petersen]

[...]

Anywayz... I digress. I sure would like 3GB/s drives though, especially 2.5 inch ones!

It'll be a while before we see consumer-level drives with 3
Giga*byte*/sec interfaces. The 3G*bit*/sec interface (SATA-II) will
be here soon, but it's only one tenth of that (300MByte/s). Points to
consider: 1) drives cannot deliver data fast enough internally to
flood even a SATA-I interface, and 2) Besides, I doubt that we will
see many drives offering 3Gb/s. If I understand it correctly, the
3Gb/s is intended for between the mobo and "expander chips", so that
you can attach multiple physical drives to a single SATA-II connector
at the mobo level.

I haven't digged very deeply into this, and I'm curious as how the
mobo can tell the difference between the drives when there's an
expander attached, or if you have to run them in RAID-like
configurations where the individual drive is "undetectable" to the
driver.


Kai

 

[Tony Hill]

After 2 Gateways (with poor peformance records), I decided to go for a Dell.

Err.. I guess you could say that's a step up, though don't expect
significant differences between ANY of the big-name OEMs. Basically
Dell, HPaq, Gateway, etc. etc. are all just management and marketing
companies these days. All the components are built by other
companies, design and assembly has been outsourced and tech support
has been outsourced. And they've all been outsourced to the same
group of companies, so basically the biggest difference between a Dell
or an HP or a Gateway is just the name that is painted on the front
and the specific combination of options in any given system.

That being said, I'm not sure what the best alternative is. If you
know of a really good, reputable dealer in town that can put together
a "white box" system, that might be best, but local dealers can be
very hit-and-miss.

Or you could buy a Mac :> Actually, I'm seriously becoming convinced
that this is the best idea for people who just want a system that
works.

I'm not a techie so an above average 'puter for the masses is what I wanted.
Some questions still need answers, though. For example:
1) Gateway (not Dell) offers BTX Technology. Is this something most companies
will pick up soon?

Tough to say for sure. There's absolutely no performance reason to go
for this so long as an ATX case can cool your chip sufficiently. It's
also likely to cost more.

In short, I'd really say that this one is a non-issue from the
end-user perspective. Might have some implications for manufacturers,
but nothing significant.

2) The 160G hard drive with my Dell had Native Command Queuing. Is this a good
thing or a drain (and too early in the game)?

Good thing in theory, though you'll probably never notice any
difference because of it.

 

[AWriteny]

Tony Hill (e-mail address removed) writes

"... If you know of a really good, reputable >dealer in town that can put together
a "white box" system, that might be best, >but local dealers can be very

hit-and-miss...."

I don't know of any reputable local dealers within a 40 mile radius..so, that's
out! The local Best Buys and Circut Cities stock the standard WYSIWYG
commercial configs, no good either.

"...Or you could buy a Mac ...I'm >seriously becoming convinced
that this is the best idea for people who >just want a system that works."

No argument there. I haven't been on a Mac in a decade, but back then I swore
it was better than the PC (clones). Trouble is, then, like now, is the lack of
compatibility between the two. I don't want to have to convert my outside work
on the PC to my Mac at home. (I did it back then, but am reluctant now).

 

[keith]

Err.. I guess you could say that's a step up, though don't expect
significant differences between ANY of the big-name OEMs. Basically
Dell, HPaq, Gateway, etc. etc. are all just management and marketing
companies these days. All the components are built by other
companies, design and assembly has been outsourced and tech support
has been outsourced. And they've all been outsourced to the same
group of companies, so basically the biggest difference between a Dell
or an HP or a Gateway is just the name that is painted on the front
and the specific combination of options in any given system.

I try to telll people this when they ask what to buy. I put together a
system for a friend (noted in this group) and she's tickled pink. Even
though she doesn't have a piece of paper suggesting that she has a
warranty, help is a lot closer than bangladesh.

That being said, I'm not sure what the best alternative is. If you know
of a really good, reputable dealer in town that can put together a
"white box" system, that might be best, but local dealers can be very
hit-and-miss.
Learn.

Or you could buy a Mac :> Actually, I'm seriously becoming convinced
that this is the best idea for people who just want a system that works.

I rather *like* that idea. ;-) I wish I could afford to go that way.
:-( I'm certainly happy that people can. Diversity, ya' know. ;-)

<snipped stuff already commented on>

 

[nobody]

Tony Hill (e-mail address removed) writes

hit-and-miss...."

I don't know of any reputable local dealers within a 40 mile radius..so, that's
out! The local Best Buys and Circut Cities stock the standard WYSIWYG
commercial configs, no good either.


No argument there. I haven't been on a Mac in a decade, but back then I swore
it was better than the PC (clones). Trouble is, then, like now, is the lack of
compatibility between the two. I don't want to have to convert my outside work
on the PC to my Mac at home. (I did it back then, but am reluctant now).

OK, here is what you do.
First, you go to the nearest hardware (not necessarily
computer-related hardware, even Home Depot will do) and purchase a
Philips screwdriver.
Second, you harness the power of the Internet to order the computer
components you need at the lowest possible prices (hint: use
www.pricewatch.com to search for the components. Froogle.com and
pricegrabber.com will also do the trick.) If you are not sure which
components you need, ask this NG, you'll get more advice than you can
digest.
Third, use your head, hands, and screwdriver (see 1 above) to put the
components together. Believe me or not, id doesn't take a rocket
scientist.
Forth, since you post to this NG, I would assume you have a copy of OS
and whatever software else you might need. If you dont, you can order
the software the same way as hardware (see 2 above). Install the
software.
Fifth, the profit margin of DULL Computer you almost gave to them now
remains in your pocket. Enjoy it.

 

[The little lost angel]

No argument there. I haven't been on a Mac in a decade, but back then I swore
it was better than the PC (clones). Trouble is, then, like now, is the lack of
compatibility between the two. I don't want to have to convert my outside work
on the PC to my Mac at home. (I did it back then, but am reluctant now).

File formats are more compatible nowadays I think. Esp since Microsoft
Office is available on both. Unless you use some kind of special
program for work?

--
L.Angel: I'm looking for web design work.
If you need basic to med complexity webpages at affordable rates, email me
Standard HTML, SHTML, MySQL + PHP or ASP, Javascript.
If you really want, FrontPage & DreamWeaver too.
But keep in mind you pay extra bandwidth for their bloated code

 

[Tony Hill]

Tony Hill (e-mail address removed) writes

hit-and-miss...."

I don't know of any reputable local dealers within a 40 mile radius..so, that's
out! The local Best Buys and Circut Cities stock the standard WYSIWYG
commercial configs, no good either.

Well, in this case your hand is kind of being forced and Dell is
probably about as good a choice as any. One thing you might want to
at least have a look at though is their commercial-grade systems,
particularly if you don't want to package this system up and send it
away for 2 weeks if any hardware components go out. The
commercial-grade Dell Optiplex line are a bit more expensive than
their consumer-grade Dimension line, but they come with better
warranties (including being able to have an tech come out to you to
replace any broken hardware) and support that has mostly been
outsourced to Canada instead of India. Alternatively Dell offers
upgrades to their warranty on their Dimension line to give them the
same support options as on their Optiplex line.

No argument there. I haven't been on a Mac in a decade, but back then I swore
it was better than the PC (clones). Trouble is, then, like now, is the lack of
compatibility between the two. I don't want to have to convert my outside work
on the PC to my Mac at home. (I did it back then, but am reluctant now).

Obviously a Mac isn't an option for everyone, I don't own one either
though would like to get one if I could afford it.

 

[AJ]

AJ wrote:
I'll bet NCQ gets
over-marketed to stand-alone users though too (because the HD manf's have nothing
new to offer this year?). I was chomping-at-the-bit (hoping) for 3GB/s. I'd actually buy
a new HD and use my exiting 80GB SATA for backups if 3 GB/s was available (twice

[...]

Anywayz... I digress. I sure would like 3GB/s drives though, especially 2.5 inch ones!

It'll be a while before we see consumer-level drives with 3
Giga*byte*/sec interfaces. The 3G*bit*/sec interface (SATA-II) will
be here soon, but it's only one tenth of that (300MByte/s).

My bad. That's what I meant: 3Gb/s, twice the throughut of today's
SATA drives.

Points to
consider: 1) drives cannot deliver data fast enough internally to
flood even a SATA-I interface, and 2) Besides, I doubt that we will
see many drives offering 3Gb/s. If I understand it correctly, the
3Gb/s is intended for between the mobo and "expander chips", so that
you can attach multiple physical drives to a single SATA-II connector
at the mobo level.

I don't think so, cuz where I heard about it was at the drive manufacturers
sites where they describe SATA technology and they are talking about
individual drive specs. So at this time of promotion for NCQ, I'm disappointed
that it isn't the time of 3Gb/s (Install Windows in less than 10 mins then maybe?).

AJ

 

[AWriteny]

OK, here is what you do.
First, you go to the nearest hardware (not necessarily
computer-related hardware, even Home Depot will do) and purchase a
Philips screwdriver.
Second, you harness the power of the Internet to order the computer
components you need at the lowest possible prices (hint: use
www.pricewatch.com to search for the components. Froogle.com and
pricegrabber.com will also do the trick.) If you are not sure which
components you need, ask this NG, you'll get more advice than you can
digest.
Third, use your head, hands, and screwdriver (see 1 above) to put the
components together. Believe me or not, id doesn't take a rocket
scientist.
Forth, since you post to this NG, I would assume you have a copy of OS
and whatever software else you might need. If you dont, you can order
the software the same way as hardware (see 2 above). Install the
software.
Fifth, the profit margin of DULL Computer you almost gave to them now
remains in your pocket. Enjoy it.

As soon as I receive my paralegal certificate & Masters Degree, I'll consider
it.

 

[YKhan]

I don't know of any reputable local dealers within a 40 mile radius..so, that's
out! The local Best Buys and Circut Cities stock the standard WYSIWYG
commercial configs, no good either.

Well, without any reputable local dealers nearby, then possibily going
to the big-chain BB's or CC's is just as good an option as going to an
online website to buy one. At the big chains, at least you get to see
the products side-by-side, and at least get a feel for their aesthetics
(looks) and it'll also give you an idea about specific options that you
might find useful. Such as you might find you were only looking for
cd-rom burners, but you might come away looking for a computer with a
dvd-rom burner instead. Or you might find having a flash card reader to
read your digital camera's cards might be a good idea. You know stuff
you normally wouldn't have thought of before but might find useful in
some way. And likely if you get their local extended warranties, they
will be very helpful in replacing faulty parts directly in-store. Also
you'll still get access to the manufacturer's 1-800 number helpdesk.

Plus at the big-chains you'll see different manufacturer's products
side-by-side, like from HP/Compaq, or Emachines/Gateway, etc.
Yousuf Khan

 

[keith]

AJ wrote:
I'll bet NCQ gets
over-marketed to stand-alone users though too (because the HD manf's have nothing
new to offer this year?). I was chomping-at-the-bit (hoping) for 3GB/s. I'd actually buy
a new HD and use my exiting 80GB SATA for backups if 3 GB/s was available (twice
[...]

Anywayz... I digress. I sure would like 3GB/s drives though, especially 2.5 inch ones!

It'll be a while before we see consumer-level drives with 3
Giga*byte*/sec interfaces. The 3G*bit*/sec interface (SATA-II) will
be here soon, but it's only one tenth of that (300MByte/s).

My bad. That's what I meant: 3Gb/s, twice the throughut of today's
SATA drives.

Find me a SATA drive with even 1.5Gb/s and I'll buy it. Hint: datarate

I don't think so, cuz where I heard about it was at the drive
manufacturers sites where they describe SATA technology and they are
talking about individual drive specs.

Read the above again. It matters *not* how fast the interface is, if the
media can't keep up. ...and it cannot.

So at this time of promotion for
NCQ, I'm disappointed that it isn't the time of 3Gb/s (Install Windows
in less than 10 mins then maybe?).

Keep dreaming. Win install is a little more than disk I/O too.

 

[keith]

As soon as I receive my paralegal certificate & Masters Degree, I'll consider
it.

Oh, please. I have neither, but have been building these
things longer than most. (ok, I've been in the biz for 35 years and BSEE
for >30 ;-).

Seriously, building a PC is simple for anyone with a modicum of manual
dexterity. If you can twist a screwdriver without stripping heads or
threads, you can build a desktop PC. THere's only a few dozen screws and
a half dozen cables.