breaking passwords on discs containing Word docs

B

Beth Melton

You might want to read up on the temp files Word creates so you're better
informed about how Word works. :) No one is contending flash memory is more
volatile than HDD memory. What we're contending is due to how Word creates
and manages temp files Word documents become more susceptible to corruption
when working directly off a flash drive than they would in other
applications.

~Beth Melton
Microsoft Office MVP
 
S

Scott M.

Two things here Beth...

1. When you say that Word documents are more susceptible to corruption when
accessed directly from flash memory, you are, in fact saying that flash
memory is more volitile than HDD memory (which it is not).

2. If you are using the flash memory and Word properly, you are no more in
danger than if you were working off a HDD. The temporary files that are
created by Word are in no more danger of becomming corrupt than if you were
working of the HDD.

-Scott
 
S

Scott M.

I could give a similar anecdote about losing a bunch of important photos a
few years back when my hard drive failed. It doesn't mean we stop working
with hard drives.

This thread has really gotten away from my simple initial point, which is to
say "don't access a file from a flash drive" without any explanantion of why
or what *could* happen is irresponsible. And, believe it or not, I'm not
advocating the practice. What I'm saying is that, in and of itself, the
practice is not dangerous and that Graham's comments were incomplete as well
as his later explanation innacurate. As with ALL computer files, having a
backup copy is the best bet 100% of the time.

I just find it troubling that more and more in the NG's I'm hearing MVP's
doling out, what sounds like absolute edicts without any explanation, which
leaves a newbie (the vast majority of NG readers) believing what they are
hearing without understanding what they've been told.

Graham hasn't helped his cause with irrational statements like saying the
software will not help you open a password protected Word document, only
time will (almost verbaitim what he said). Using that logic, you could say
that nothing in the universe happens, but for the passage of time
(extostential for sure, but practical and true for day to day living - -
hardly true at all).

-Scott
 
S

Scott M.

Graham Mayor said:
You assert that passwords can easily be cracked if only you have the right
software. This is simply nonsense. However they can be cracked if you have
sufficient time - which was covered in my web page.

Well, the OP has been waiting since 1994. So waiting for time to pass
hasn't worked. Perhaps it's time to try some software?
 
B

Beth Melton

Scott M. said:
Two things here Beth...

1. When you say that Word documents are more susceptible to corruption
when accessed directly from flash memory, you are, in fact saying that
flash memory is more volitile than HDD memory (which it is not).

No, what I'm saying is the chances of the Word document not being saved
correctly, due to how temp files are handled, when working off removable
media makes them susceptible to corruption. IOW, it's a Word issue, not a
removable media issue.

It's for this reason the Word option "Copy remotely stored files onto your
computer, and update the remote file when saving" was added. It's an attempt
to prevent corruption. I say "attempt" because it's not 100% reliable and
revisions are made in each version to correct various bugs.
2. If you are using the flash memory and Word properly, you are no more in
danger than if you were working off a HDD. The temporary files that are
created by Word are in no more danger of becomming corrupt than if you
were working of the HDD.

I have to disagree. It's not the temp files that can become corrupt - it's
the pointers and links to the original document Word tends to hang onto --
even after the document is closed -- that cause the issue. Here's more on
how Word uses temp files:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/211632

An excerpt:

The location of temporary files when you close a file
Word may occasionally have to maintain a link to a file after it is closed.
This occurs when text has been copied to the Clipboard from the file. When
you close a file, Word attempts the following actions:
If the selection that was copied to the Clipboard does not contain multiple
sections or a picture, or is not large, Word copies the piece of the
document to the scratch file.
If the copied selection does contain pictures or multiple sections, or if
the file is on a floppy disk, Word copies the entire file to the Temp
directory and moves the pointer there.

Note the reference to "floppy disk" should be removable media.

~Beth Melton
Microsoft Office MVP
 
P

Peter T. Daniels

No, we're talking about "a whole box" of diskettes. Now it might be a
10-diskette retail box, but I'm envisioning more something like a
shoebox.

And why wouldn't email be a way to transfer that?

We could be talking about dozens or hundreds of files.
Because when Graham answered OP's question, he recommended
transferring the files from the friend's computer to the OP's computer
by flash drive, and then you questioned why a flash drive would be
needed given that one of the computers involved in the process had a
diskette drive.



No one has mentioned volatility of memory. What _seems_ to be the
problem is that Word needs to create lots and lots of temporary files
in the same folder as the original document, and if the flash drive
runs out of space, you're screwed.

Word creates one (1) temporary file per document that is open.  If one
document is open (and why would you need more than one open at a time to
transfer them?), then the file created is no larger than the original
document in the first place.  If you have a flash drive that can't support
one additional file placed on it, then you probably shouldn't be using that
flash drive in the first place.  Also, given then my local Best Buy doesn't
even sell a flash drive less than 4 GB anymore, you'd easily be able to
store 2000 floppy disks worth of information on it.

Which is why it's ideal for transferring the files from one computer
to the other. But _not_ for succumbing to the temptation not to bother
with the extra step of copying them to the destination computer's hard
drive.
You clearly haven't been reading this newsgroup very long,

Why? Because I disagree with an MVP's suggestion?  Again, I have no doubt

Because you don't know that many people have lost files when they
tried to work on them directly from flash drives.
that many people here have encountered file corruption with flash drives.
But that, in and of itself, does not mean that the flash drive itself is the
problem.  Newsgroups are where people (usually inexperienced or uninformed)
go to get help.

and if you're in the habit of saving or reading documents directly from Word
to/from flash drives, instead of always accessing them from a hard
drive, and you've had no ill experiences, then you've been very lucky.

No, I've been educated and informed enough about the technology to know how
to use it correctly.  You cannot provide ANY technical evidence that using a
flash drive correctly is any more prone to file corruption than HDD media..

You have no control over how Word deals with files. Beth has explained
to you that it's not simply a matter of creating a single temporary
file.
 
P

Peter T. Daniels

Two things here Beth...

1. When you say that Word documents are more susceptible to corruption when
accessed directly from flash memory, you are, in fact saying that flash
memory is more volitile than HDD memory (which it is not).

Unless you mean by "volitile" something other than what the rest of us
mean by "volatile" (yes, that's a spelling flame, but you've seen it
spelled correctly here by at least two of us several times), we are in
fact saying nothing of the sort.

The simple fact is that Word does not work the way you seem to think
it does, and working directly from or to a flash drive is very unwise.
2. If you are using the flash memory and Word properly, you are no more in
danger than if you were working off a HDD.  The temporary files that are
created by Word are in no more danger of becomming corrupt than if you were
working of the HDD.

Again, it's not a matter of "file corruption" in the sense of a magnet
or a cosmic ray or something disrupting the storage medium. It's a
matter of Word creating lots of temporary files and not fully dealing
with them until Word is fully closed down.
 
B

Beth Melton

I love my flash drives. I just don't edit Word documents directly from
removable media. ;-) I do edit other file types off removable media and I'll
open and print a document directly from removable media, but I refrain from
editing them.

I can't say I disagree with the need to provide an explanation regarding the
risks of editing Word documents directly from removable media. I say "risk"
because there are so many different variables regarding the temp file
creation (and issues with Fast Saves in older versions of Word - a general
cause of corruption but more so on removable media and one of the reasons
why it was removed from the application) one may or may not encounter an
issue. I think it's best to advise on the risk rather than create a hard and
fast rule. I usually try to take this route but I know there have been times
I haven't when traffic is high. You raise a good point and in the future
I'll make sure I elaborate more.

As for this thread becoming a bit off-topic, I can't say that's a bad thing.
After all, it's possible some of those who help out in the newsgroups know
the risks about removable media and Word documents but never really knew the
details surrounding the advice and all they really know are all of those
posts we see from those asking how to recover a corrupt document stored on
removable media.

~Beth Melton
Microsoft Office MVP
 
S

Suzanne S. Barnhill

You are intentionally distorting what Graham has said, viz., that software
(including the app he recommends) will do the trick, but it may not do it
quickly; it may take quite a long time if the password is longer than four
characters.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
 
G

Graham Mayor

It is not the pointing out of inaccuracies that I would question - though I
have posted none in this thread - but the persistence in creating an
argument where none is required, misrepresenting what was posted, simply to
show off some largely irrelevant point that you have a bee in your bonnet
about. I am not always right, and my ego is not so fragile that I cannot
publically admit when I am wrong. I am not wrong on this occasion.

In 1994 when these documents were created, I was working in the field of
computer crime investigation. The need to open password protected documents
was something that was a regular requirement. Software has improved and PCs
have become faster since then, but the essential truth remains that it is
not easy or quick to break other than simple passwords. I never said at any
time that software would not help - but that it *could* take a seriously
long time. Better to know the limitations of password cracking software
before forking out $40 or so, than to sit waiting for the software to crack
a single password with a whole box of discs sitting on the table (or
transferred to the PC) waiting to be processed. For some life is too short
to do that.

If you are going to waste my time in arguments, at least have the courtesy
to respond to what I actually wrote. I didn't mention e-mail at all! E-mail
would be another acceptable method of data transfer and there are others too
that would work. I didn't mention those either.

There is ample anecdotal evidence that suggests when working with flash
memory and Word you *may* run into problems that will cause data loss. I did
not say that you *will* run into problems or that the problem was the flash
media itself. I merely recommended a way of using it that was safe, and in
the context of the OPs problem that was all that was required. It was you
who chose to make an issue of it for. As you say, people come here for
problem resolution. The problem posed by the user was addressed accurately
by my original answer. The user has not been back to argue the point - and
may have been deterred from doing so, by your need to polish your ego, so we
may never know his thoughts on the matter.

My 'goal' was merely to suggest an approach that would work in the context
of the OPs problems. From the information the OP provided, the answer I
provided was correct then and is still correct now. There was no need
whatsoever for a technical treatise on the merits or otherwise of flash
media. Only you have served to obfuscate the issue with your inaccurate
ramblings about password cracking and by introducing a wholly unneccessary
diatribe about flash memory - which while right as far is goes, is not
relevant to the problem in hand, and if followed *may* as opposed to *will*
result in the loss of the OPs data from the flash memory.

The subject of the post was (and still is) "breaking passwords on discs
containing Word docs". It seems that you paid scant regard to the word
'discs' and the fact that the the OP did not have a floppy drive to access
them, but had a friend with a floppy drive, so the issues raised included
that of getting the information from the friend to the PC without the floppy
drive or there would have been no point in his mentioning of it.

Your first reply which you believe answered the question was simply a link
to Google - if you had wanted to be really offensive you could have used
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=word+document+passwords which would have sent the same
unhelpful message in an altogether more pointed way.

So you expect others to educate, while you simply sneer? Is that the true
measure of your contributions to the forums?
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>
Graham Mayor - Word MVP

My web site www.gmayor.com

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>><<>
 
T

Tony Jollans

I hesitate to enter a thread full of silly arguments, but if the Word
documents were created, and password-protected by Word, in 1994 they were
obfuscated, using XOR, rather than really encrypted and, although I don't
personally know of any software that can break this, I have no doubt some is
available, and that it is a trivial task for modern PCs. I would imagine a
web search would turn up something helpful.

You may, though, have other problems with such old documents (depending what
version of Word you are currently using).
 
S

Suzanne S. Barnhill

One additional problem that is more than likely is that the disk itself is
hopelessly corrupted and unusable. Magnetic disks do degrade over time.

--
Suzanne S. Barnhill
Microsoft MVP (Word)
Words into Type
Fairhope, Alabama USA
http://word.mvps.org
 

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments. After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.

Ask a Question

Top