Boot to Ram from DVD

[Dietmar]

Hi all,
is there a chance to boot to ram with xpe or xp(?)from a large DVD?
I have 4 GB of Ram.
SDI is only allowed for files smaller than 500 MB.
I read your thread about large DVD with two partitions.
But XPE starts from there and not from ram.
I know that it is possible to boot XPPro from a CF with EWF. But I dont
know how to do ram boot from there.

Thanks to all
Dietmar

 

[KM]

Dietmar,

Look at the XPE documentation for EWF, El-Torito.

And read all the suggestions that have been already made regarding the topic:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group...blic.windowsxp.embedded&q=DVD+SDI+boot&qt_g=1

KM

 

[Slobodan Brcin \(eMVP\)]

Hi Dietmar,

I know that it is possible to boot XPPro from a CF with EWF. But I dont
know how to do ram boot from there.

What do you mean by there?
You can do RAM boot from HDD, CF, CD, DVD in same way.

Regards,
Slobodan

 

[Dietmar]

Hi Slobodan
is it possible to boot to ram from CD/DVD without SDI?
Thanks a lot, I am learning to do
everything with XP(e) that I did with WIN98...hihi

 

[Slobodan Brcin \(eMVP\)]

Hi Dietmar,

Sure it is possible to boot some XPe to RAM without ramdisk.
For instance if you make pure kernel mode OS and "application", you could tell ntldr. from registry to load all files to memory and
then boot from there.

This would be useful for very few people since you have always cheaper solution to use Win CE or Linux.

Regards,
Slobodan
PS:
You could make some other parts to load in memory or even make your cache driver, but is it really what you need and want.

 

[KM]

Dietmar,

How about just using /MININT switch of boot.ini? (WINPE approach)

 

[Dietmar]

Hi all,
WinPE ist too much restricted.
Slobodan tells me, that it is possible to boot to Ram
without the limitation of the 500MB of SDI Ram boot.
But how???
I think that it is difficult: Syslinux
is able to boot from CD to Ram but only with SDI file.
With Syslinux You can put all to ram, and I succeed to say, that my image
of XP PRO in Ram is exactly the one I wished, but it did not boot. I think
this is a problem of the bootloader NTLDR coming with XP, but not for the
bootloader coming with XPe. So ram boot must be able with the bootloader
from XPe, without using SDI.
Thanks to all answers
Dietmar

 

[KM]

Dietmar,

Hi all,
WinPE ist too much restricted.

I said to use /MININT switch but not WinPE itself.
Please read about the switch on www.sysinternals.com.

Slobodan tells me, that it is possible to boot to Ram
without the limitation of the 500MB of SDI Ram boot.
But how???

Please read this:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/xpehelp/html/xeconElToritoCDAsDisk.asp

http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/xpehelp/html/xeconEnhancedWriteFilter.asp

I think that it is difficult: Syslinux
is able to boot from CD to Ram but only with SDI file.
With Syslinux You can put all to ram, and I succeed to say, that my image
of XP PRO in Ram is exactly the one I wished, but it did not boot. I think
this is a problem of the bootloader NTLDR coming with XP, but not for the
bootloader coming with XPe. So ram boot must be able with the bootloader
from XPe, without using SDI.

You still thinking about RAM boot. I gave you above the info about different approaches.

 

[Dietmar]

Hi "KM",
I read about /minint.
What do You want to say to me?
Is it possible to run XP (not WinPe allone)from CD/DVD with this switch
and no limit with 500MB to DVD
in the boot.ini without EWF? Are there restrictions when You boot Your
system with this switch? I want a very fast XP System, and the only way it
could be build I think is, that all is in ram. I succeed with VMware, XPpro
boots in Cenatecs ramdisk in 5 seconds!! But there is no directX. I look at
the new version VMware5 (Beta).I dont know, if Slobodan is involved in
Microsoft XPe direct. I thought that, because he fights so much against a
switch to XPPro Emulation in XPe. I understand his arguments, but if You
have enough ram, why not?
I think, that Slobodan is very good in XPe. But all the questions about
XPPro here in the forum about XPPro with EWF have no answers. I dont know
if this is illegal, I dont want to do illegal things.
Thanks Dietmar

 

[KM]

Dietmar,

Well... You confused me especially with your comments on Slobodan's "fight against a
switch to XPPro Emulation in XPe". I failed to see where he suggested such thing to you.

Read about some legal restrictions on XPe here: http://www.bsquare.com/licenses/resourcecenter/faqs.asp,
http://www.bsquare.com/licenses/resourcecenter/faqswinxpembed.asp.

I don't see how you want to speed up the XP boot going with RAMdisk. The NT loader will have to copy the entire image to RAM first
and then boot from it.
While when you are booting directly from media you don't copy everything to RAM initially (well.. not exactly true but close).
Depending on how ntldr copies the image to RAM, one or another way may be faster but the difference may be slightly noticeable.

Regarding /MININT switch. This switch is not WinPE specific. It is supported by XP in general. I don't see how this switch may be
related to any limits in image size.
Also, take a look at the BartPE (search Google) to see one of the instances how people use the switch.

And again, why not EWF/El-Torito? Did you have a chance to read through the links I post earlier?

--
Regards,
KM, BSquare Corp.


PS. No doubt Slobodan is very good in XPe

PPS. Legally you will unlikely get a permission to have XP to boot off CD/DVD media.

 

[Dietmar]

Hi KM,
I read all about ElTorito/EWF that was posted.
I think, 2 things are not good enough: First, if You boot from DVD, it
lasts about 2 minutes to boot.
And than, all is so slow, because it is fetched from DVD.
If You boot to Ram with SDI, Your image is only allowed to be less than
500MB. Why that?
Do you succeed to build in the Cenatek Ramdisk driver in Your SDI image?
Therefor I look for a chance to put all in ram, first you have to wait,
but than...power.

Dietmar

 

[KM]

Dietmar,

Cenatek Ramdisk - what is it? I mean it is not part of XPe database.

It is still unclear to me what you call by the boot time - the time image comes up from being already loaded in RAM?
Or is it the whole time since the BIOS POST?

If latter, you won't get much difference from RAM disk load vs "EWF boot" (not good term I admit)

Read about the RAMDisk 500 Meg limits here:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group...read/thread/d085a743f9e70897#d94eae8997cb0636

I don't recall where is the root of the problem - in ntldr or Ram disk driver (please note, we are talking about different RAM Disk
driver here, not the Cenatek one).

 

[Slobodan Brcin \(eMVP\)]

Hi Dietmar,

If You boot to Ram with SDI, Your image is only allowed to be less than
500MB. Why that?

Because someone wanted to make a relatively simple driver and not to bother with moving view to data.
Basically on 32 bit windows you have address space reserved for kernelmode programs of 2 GB or in some cases when you use /3GB
switch it drop to 1GB.
This address space s shared between all drivers for all memory that they allocate.
So even if you had 8 GB of RAM memory per address space would be maxed at 4GB because with 32 bit pointers you can't describe more.

Now if you need more memory in kernel mode driver you must do mem view sliding is in old DOS days so you can access trough some
fixed address space and set view any piece of memory that you have.
RamDisk driver is probably based on W2K sample ramdisk driver which is fairly simple and do not bother with such approach.
If you need your driver to support more than 500MB you would need to support this yourself.
Also I assume that ntldr. is also not written with mind that someone will use image size above 500 MB. But you can make custom SDI
loader.

Also even if you are using XPP you could fit it on NTFS compressed filesystem of 500 MB, and all your working data you could keep in
separate ramdisk volume.

/minint switch I have no idea what good it would be for you since I doubt that on its own it will load all files to memory. (But I
think that this list can be configured trough external file).

You should try to describe the best you can what you are trying to do and reason why so we can give you advice.

Regarding why there is no much answers about XPP it is because this is XPe NG and although same things can be applied legal
restrictions are different.

WinPE = XPe = XPP so you can use knowledge's from all of them and mix them. Unfortunately this is only good to see how things are
working, when you get to lawyers then story is different.

- EWF won't give you RAM boot option it is used for different thing.

I dont know, if Slobodan is involved in Microsoft XPe direct.

Of course not (Except bugging them ). We MVP's can't legally work for MS (If I remember correctly) since we must be independent,
otherwise we must cease to be MVP, or something like that. (Konstantin might give you more info).

I thought that, because he fights so much against a switch to XPPro Emulation in XPe. I understand his arguments, but if You have

enough ram, why not?
You have enough RAM for XP, you must be the first one There is no such thins as enough RAM.
But two reason especially with RAM boot.
1. You must make your support for this.
2. It take time for each additional MB to load in memory.

Otherwise it is ok. (Minor drawback is that each things you add might be some security hole)


Regards,
Slobodan

 

[Dietmar]

Hi Konstantin and Slobodan,
thank You very much for Your answers.
I try an attempt with NTFS compressed to shrink my image. Is this able
with the components of XPe?
Did anyone try to build an SDI Image from XPPro? I dont want to deal with
such an image, just a try.
I do not know, how to write my own bootloader. I think H.P.Anwin (the
autor of Syslinux)is much better than me and he hast no success with
bootloader to Ram for XP.
My question about Cenatek Ramdisk driver is only, if it is possible to put
this driver into the SDI image to build a
seperate ramdisk of about 3GB after the SDI Image booted.
Thanks for help,

I have 6 day holidays and
I will succeed.
Dietmar

 

[Slobodan Brcin \(eMVP\)]

Hi Dietmar,

I have no idea how Cenatek Ramdisk is implemented and working since I never heard about it before.
Do you know following?

On XP Pro with disabled pagefile. (This you must do)
Can you create 3GB ramdisk?
Please let us know that.

Did anyone try to build an SDI Image from XPPro? I don't want to deal with
such an image, just a try.

I can speak for myself only and I did not tried this. Why would you lose enormous time to force this to work?

Regards,
Slobodan

 

[Dietmar]

Hi Slobodan,
I created a Ramdisk from Cenatek Vers1.9 (wonderful tool) with 3.5 GB.
I boot XPPro to ram in that Ramdisk with VMware. Boottime is 5 seconds.
Therefor I know, how great is the advantage of Boot to Ram.
As a privat person you cant buy XPe. I dont want to spend 100 of hours
working for an SDI Image, that is killed after 120 days. I cant understand
Microsoft for that. Because of that behavior I think, Linux or something
new OP System will be the coming Standard in lets say 10 years.

I still dont know, why it is so difficult to boot XP to Ram. A simple
Bootloader isnt able to do that.

Glad to hear from You
Dietmar

 

[Slobodan Brcin \(eMVP\)]

Hi Dietmar,

Trough all this emulation and simulation you forgot few important things.
1. In real world you can't use pagefile when doing ram-boot.
2. 500MB image can take above a minute just to load to RAM. This is phase after BIOS and before RAM boot is started.
3. You never said that you can make a RAM Disk on XPP without page-file support and without VMware.

I still dont know, why it is so difficult to boot XP to Ram. A simple
Bootloader isnt able to do that.

Who said that this is difficult? You just need deep understanding of how things are working so you can tweak all parameters in
offline registry.
Also ntldr that XPe use is the same one used by XPP and it can be used for RAM boot.

Regards,
Slobodan
PS:
Give us results of tests that I suggested if you want us to go further.

 

[Dietmar]

Hi Slobodan,
after installing the 3.5Gb Ramdisk from Cenatek I disabled
pagefile. That was no problem. Its a pity, that I havent deep
understanding whats going on on boottime with NTLDR.
But how should I? Nearly nothing about that is documented.
But I am learning...
Now I am installing XPPro on a NTFS 2Gb partition.
Make all ready to work, and then compress it.
I hope, that I succeed near 500MB, without nlite oder something like
that.
You will hear from me
I never give up

Dietmar

 

[Slobodan Brcin \(eMVP\)]

Hi Dietmar,

Part one is to load disk image file to flat memory. (This can be done by ntldr or by you).
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnxpesp1/html/ram_sdi.asp

Then depending on chosen way you tell ntldr where this disk data is and to start booting from there.
After all drivers are loaded in other part of memory kernel will start them and try to use ramdisk driver as boot disk.

One note that Konstantin someday could give us a clue is whether XIP would be possible from ramdisk (this would same some memory
when working with RAM boot).

There is only one important thing about ramdisk driver internals that must be met so you can use it as boot disk.
Kernel will expect that device object with "\Device\Ramdisk" name exist and that it represent boot disk.
MS ramdisk driver uses memory location passed by ntldr. so it know where to look for data, but if you make custom boot loaded then
you can hardcode memory position so you won't even need to know how to read this data. (Probably somewhere in virtual part of
registry).

You can download sources for ramdisk driver from MS site or perhaps from some open source community and fulfill these requirements.

1. Now you can install XPP on your HDD.
2. Install this driver on XPP.
3. Disable pagefile usage.
4. Make disk image file in SDI format from XPP HDD.
5. Place your bootloader and direct it to load your file and do the boot. Search in this NG for sources posted by me that will load
custom image from CD/DVD to memory.
6. Make boot and see what will happen.

There are many steps missing here how to do certain things, but this will keep you going for a while. (Take this as a learning
experience)

Regards,
Slobodan

 

[Dietmar]

Hi Slobodan,
thank You very much.
This is the first post as far as I know, that someone doesnt say it is
impossible. I talk to Sean Liming and
he was interested also very much, but he didnt no how to do, the same with
H.P.Anvin and me (hihi).
Installation of XPPro on NTFS is complete.
Lets see...
Dietmar