Boot from Sil-3112 controller when there's another

[NickM61]

The board's an ABIT KV7-V with a VIA KT-600 chipset. There's an
onboard SATA (Sil-3112 controller) RAID , which is the boot drive
(striped).

I've added another SATA drive (for backup) using a Vantec Serial ATA
PCI host card (don't have an IDE drive available). The mainboard BIOS
does not seem to be able to recognize the RAID boot drive when this
new SATA drive is connected.

Both SCSI drives do not appear together in either the BIOS hard drive
boot order setting, or the (preBIOS?) boot drive menu. This means
there's no way to tell the machine which drive to boot to. It always
prefers the PCI connected drive if both are connected and doesn't list
the RAID array in either boot order utility.

I can leave the PCI drive disconnected until boot and then plug it
it. This way all is fine. Any way to get the bios to recognize the
onboard SATA RAID array first when the PCI card is connected?

 

[Paul]

The board's an ABIT KV7-V with a VIA KT-600 chipset. There's an
onboard SATA (Sil-3112 controller) RAID , which is the boot drive
(striped).

I've added another SATA drive (for backup) using a Vantec Serial ATA
PCI host card (don't have an IDE drive available). The mainboard BIOS
does not seem to be able to recognize the RAID boot drive when this
new SATA drive is connected.

Both SCSI drives do not appear together in either the BIOS hard drive
boot order setting, or the (preBIOS?) boot drive menu. This means
there's no way to tell the machine which drive to boot to. It always
prefers the PCI connected drive if both are connected and doesn't list
the RAID array in either boot order utility.

I can leave the PCI drive disconnected until boot and then plug it
it. This way all is fine. Any way to get the bios to recognize the
onboard SATA RAID array first when the PCI card is connected?

Does the Vantec card also use a SIL3112 chip ?

What are the odds that the Vantec add-in BIOS chip (on the PCI card),
is being loaded and being used to control both the chip on the PCI
card and the one on the motherboard ?

This might be a situation, where you'd want a card with something
other than a SIL3112 to be on the PCI card. Or, at least, be
willing to run both SIL3112 chips in the same mode. I thought
the SIL3112 had optional BIOS modules for RAID operation or
vanilla (non-RAID) drive operation. At one time, you could download
firmware for PCI SIL3112 cards (as long as the correct kind of
rewritable BIOS chip was on the PCI card - some manufacturers used
the wrong kind of chip for the flasher to access). Depending on whether
the PCI card BIOS is being loaded first, or the motherboard module
is loaded first, might determine which source of BIOS code is used
to control both chips.

Just a guess,
Paul

 

[NickM61]

Does the Vantec card also use a SIL3112 chip ?

What are the odds that the Vantec add-in BIOS chip (on the PCI card),
is being loaded and being used to control both the chip on the PCI
card and the one on the motherboard ?

This might be a situation, where you'd want a card with something
other than a SIL3112 to be on the PCI card. Or, at least, be
willing to run both SIL3112 chips in the same mode. I thought
the SIL3112 had optional BIOS modules for RAID operation or
vanilla (non-RAID) drive operation. At one time, you could download
firmware for PCI SIL3112 cards (as long as the correct kind of
rewritable BIOS chip was on the PCI card - some manufacturers used
the wrong kind of chip for the flasher to access). Depending on whether
the PCI card BIOS is being loaded first, or the motherboard module
is loaded first, might determine which source of BIOS code is used
to control both chips.

Just a guess,
Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks for your help. Amazingly they use the same chip. There is no
RAID function on this PCI card so the non-RAID drivers are loaded. I
called Vantec and the tech support guy immediately blamed the
motherboard manufacturer. I asked him if they tested their card on
motherboards already containing the 3112 chipset but he dodged the
question.

It seems to me that when ABIT made its board 2 years ago, it couldn't
have taken into account what Vantec came out with in 2007. Vantec on
the other hand...

 

[Andy]

The board's an ABIT KV7-V with a VIA KT-600 chipset. There's an
onboard SATA (Sil-3112 controller) RAID , which is the boot drive
(striped).

According to the manual, the onboard SATA RAID interface is provided
by the Via VT8237 southbridge chip.

 

[Paul]

Thanks for your help. Amazingly they use the same chip. There is no
RAID function on this PCI card so the non-RAID drivers are loaded. I
called Vantec and the tech support guy immediately blamed the
motherboard manufacturer. I asked him if they tested their card on
motherboards already containing the 3112 chipset but he dodged the
question.

It seems to me that when ABIT made its board 2 years ago, it couldn't
have taken into account what Vantec came out with in 2007. Vantec on
the other hand...

Hmmm. I just downloaded the manual. The manual covers two boards, KV7 and
KV7-V. Both appear to be using two SATA ports on the 8237 controller.
I downloaded a BIOS module for the KV7-V and it has a module "6420R431.rom"
which is a VIA RAID BIOS module, but there is no SIL3112 present inside
the motherboard BIOS.

So your PCI card uses a different chip. I simply took your word for it,
that the motherboard had a SIL3112 on it.

On my AMI BIOS motherboard, when a controller outside the Southbridge
shows up, the disks (handled by INT 0x13 service) are listed in the
hard drive section of the boot order. But your BIOS is an Award BIOS.

Consulting the motherboard manual for my AthlonXP motherboard, it
has an Award BIOS. The BIOS offers First, Second, and Third Boot Device,
plus the bogus Boot Other Device option. (Bogus, because I believe it
actually means, to go through the First, Second, and Third Boot
Devices in sequence. I don't think it actually has anything to do
with offering other boot options. I read that on Rojakpot.)

So what options does the Award BIOS offer ?

Floppy, LS120, HDD-0, SCSI, CDROM, HDD-1, HDD-2
HDD-3, ZIP, USB-FDD, USB-ZIP, USB-CDROM. USB-HDD,
LAN, Disabled

My guess would be, in the Award case, that devices added via INT 0x13
service, are treated as SCSI. The VIA RAID is "foreign" and gets treated
as SCSI. The innocent Vantec SIL3112 add-in BIOS runs, offers its disk as
an INT 0x13 service device, and the Award BIOS treats it as SCSI also.
Presumably SCSI devices are consulted in PCI address space order, which is
a rather arbitrary thing. I would have expected the VIA RAID to win that
battle.

The only option I can see, is disabling the BIOS on the VANTEC card.
Because at least the manual I've got for an Award BIOS, shows no way
to distinguish between "SCSI" devices.

I found a datasheet for the SIL3112, but there is no option to disable
the flash EEPROM that holds the BIOS. (If it was socketed, you could
have tried popping it out of the socket.) There is a pin, that changes the
"class" of the device, between IDE and RAID. If you changed that signal,
such that there was a mismatch between what the BIOS chip on the Vantec
card expects, and what the SIL3112 is set for, that might be enough to
prevent the Vantec BIOS from staying loaded. But, there would be a side
effect from that. In your OS, you'd then have to use a RAID driver to
access the Vantec card. And I'm not sure exactly how simple that would be.

SIl3112 datasheet. You'll need a BZIP2 decompresser to get at the PDF.
IDE_CFG (page 27) explains the config pin on the SIL3112. The Vantec card
has a legend on the card, mentioning "RAID mode" and "IDE mode", and the
two header pins are not soldered in place. Shorting the two pads together,
should configure the SIL3112 for RAID in the "class" register. That will
cause the add-in BIOS contained in the Vantec EEPROM, to mismatch the
SIL3112 and presumably prevent the BIOS from loading. But then, you'd need
some kind of RAID driver for the card, when trying to use it for data
while in Windows.

http://gkernel.sourceforge.net/specs/sii/3112A_SiI-DS-0095-B2.pdf.bz2

I don't see how another brand of SATA controller is going to fix this,
either, unless there is a way to disable the add-in BIOS flash chip
on the PCI card.

An alternate way to solve this problem, is buy an IDE to SATA adapter,
which will convert a SATA hard drive, to a ribbon cable interface suitable
for connection to the IDE cable. Then you can just pull that Vantec card
out and forget about it.

This one is bidirectional, and will either convert a SATA drive to work
with an IDE cable, or convert an IDE drive to work with a SATA cable.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812186032

This appears to be based on exactly the same chip JM20330, but this
one is fixed to converting a SATA hard drive to an IDE ribbon cable
interface. Based on the reviews, I'm not sure the first people to buy
them, really understood which conversion direction this supported.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16812186007

Yet another option, is to buy a four port PCI card, and move your
RAID-0 array to the PCI card. Then plug in the third SATA as a
standalone disk. With the VIA interface disabled, there would
only be the one "SCSI card" connected to the computer, being
the SIL3114. (Moving the data around is going to be no fun
at all...)

"4-Channel SATA Silicon Image Sil3114 PCI Controller Card"
http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?InvtId=SY-SA3114-4R

A SIL3114 manual.
http://support.asus.com/technicaldocuments/Sil3114.pdf

Paul

 

[NickM61]

Hmmm. I just downloaded the manual. The manual covers two boards, KV7 and
KV7-V. Both appear to be using two SATA ports on the 8237 controller.
I downloaded a BIOS module for the KV7-V and it has a module "6420R431.rom"
which is a VIA RAID BIOS module, but there is no SIL3112 present inside
the motherboard BIOS.

So your PCI card uses a different chip. I simply took your word for it,
that the motherboard had a SIL3112 on it.

On my AMI BIOS motherboard, when a controller outside the Southbridge
shows up, the disks (handled by INT 0x13 service) are listed in the
hard drive section of the boot order. But your BIOS is an Award BIOS.

Consulting the motherboard manual for my AthlonXP motherboard, it
has an Award BIOS. The BIOS offers First, Second, and Third Boot Device,
plus the bogus Boot Other Device option. (Bogus, because I believe it
actually means, to go through the First, Second, and Third Boot
Devices in sequence. I don't think it actually has anything to do
with offering other boot options. I read that on Rojakpot.)

So what options does the Award BIOS offer ?

Floppy, LS120, HDD-0, SCSI, CDROM, HDD-1, HDD-2
HDD-3, ZIP, USB-FDD, USB-ZIP, USB-CDROM. USB-HDD,
LAN, Disabled

My guess would be, in the Award case, that devices added via INT 0x13
service, are treated as SCSI. The VIA RAID is "foreign" and gets treated
as SCSI. The innocent Vantec SIL3112 add-in BIOS runs, offers its disk as
an INT 0x13 service device, and the Award BIOS treats it as SCSI also.
Presumably SCSI devices are consulted in PCI address space order, which is
a rather arbitrary thing. I would have expected the VIA RAID to win that
battle.

The only option I can see, is disabling the BIOS on the VANTEC card.
Because at least the manual I've got for an Award BIOS, shows no way
to distinguish between "SCSI" devices.

I found a datasheet for the SIL3112, but there is no option to disable
the flash EEPROM that holds the BIOS. (If it was socketed, you could
have tried popping it out of the socket.) There is a pin, that changes the
"class" of the device, between IDE and RAID. If you changed that signal,
such that there was a mismatch between what the BIOS chip on the Vantec
card expects, and what the SIL3112 is set for, that might be enough to
prevent the Vantec BIOS from staying loaded. But, there would be a side
effect from that. In your OS, you'd then have to use a RAID driver to
access the Vantec card. And I'm not sure exactly how simple that would be.

SIl3112 datasheet. You'll need a BZIP2 decompresser to get at the PDF.
IDE_CFG (page 27) explains the config pin on the SIL3112. The Vantec card
has a legend on the card, mentioning "RAID mode" and "IDE mode", and the
two header pins are not soldered in place. Shorting the two pads together,
should configure the SIL3112 for RAID in the "class" register. That will
cause the add-in BIOS contained in the Vantec EEPROM, to mismatch the
SIL3112 and presumably prevent the BIOS from loading. But then, you'd need
some kind of RAID driver for the card, when trying to use it for data
while in Windows.

http://gkernel.sourceforge.net/specs/sii/3112A_SiI-DS-0095-B2.pdf.bz2

I don't see how another brand of SATA controller is going to fix this,
either, unless there is a way to disable the add-in BIOS flash chip
on the PCI card.

An alternate way to solve this problem, is buy an IDE to SATA adapter,
which will convert a SATA hard drive, to a ribbon cable interface suitable
for connection to the IDE cable. Then you can just pull that Vantec card
out and forget about it.

This one is bidirectional, and will either convert a SATA drive to work
with an IDE cable, or convert an IDE drive to work with a SATA cable.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812186032

This appears to be based on exactly the same chip JM20330, but this
one is fixed to converting a SATA hard drive to an IDE ribbon cable
interface. Based on the reviews, I'm not sure the first people to buy
them, really understood which conversion direction this supported.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductReview.aspx?Item=N82E16812186007

Yet another option, is to buy a four port PCI card, and move your
RAID-0 array to the PCI card. Then plug in the third SATA as a
standalone disk. With the VIA interface disabled, there would
only be the one "SCSI card" connected to the computer, being
the SIL3114. (Moving the data around is going to be no fun
at all...)

"4-Channel SATA Silicon Image Sil3114 PCI Controller Card"http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?InvtId=SY-SA3114-4R

A SIL3114 manual.http://support.asus.com/technicaldocuments/Sil3114.pdf

Paul- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks for this info. The options look pretty limited here. Since
the machine is an MS Small Business Server and runs indefinately, I
think I'm going to disconnect the SATA cable on any reboot and then
replug it at server log on. This averages less than one per month.
Don't SATA drives support hot swapping?

Nick

 

[JAD]

Thanks for this info. The options look pretty limited here. Since
the machine is an MS Small Business Server and runs indefinately, I
think I'm going to disconnect the SATA cable on any reboot and then
replug it at server log on. This averages less than one per month.
Don't SATA drives support hot swapping?

Nick

I have not used these expansions yet. Are these Sata expansion controllers BIOS'less. IOW
there is no way to control speed of transfers or whether or not to make the controller
bootable and in which order to boot from. I am speaking from SCSI arrays of lore here, but
you would think that the technology wouldn't regress in this area.

 

[Paul]

I have not used these expansions yet. Are these Sata expansion controllers BIOS'less. IOW
there is no way to control speed of transfers or whether or not to make the controller
bootable and in which order to boot from. I am speaking from SCSI arrays of lore here, but
you would think that the technology wouldn't regress in this area.

The big chip is the SIL3112 SATA controller. The smaller chip to the left is
the BIOS flash chip. Some brands allow the chip to be reflashed with either
RAID or IDE type firmware. The purpose of having a flash, is to support
booting. The BIOS flash chip contains the INT 0x13 service routine to
support reading from a RAID array or from a single disk, when you want
to boot. In the case of RAID, the code also contains the interface for
setting up a new array, either RAID 0 or RAID 1.

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/15-102-102-02.JPG

I believe add-in cards in the past, had a way to disable the flash, but I
don't see anything in this case. Blowing the flash away (filling it with
a null code file), would also fix the problem, by making the card a non-bootable
item. But how would you so that ? Silicon Image has a flasher, but it only
works on a few selected models of flash chips, and not all SIL3112 PCI card
designers put the right chip on the card.

OK, I located a card on Newegg. It has a VIA chip on it, and the reviews note
a few DOA cards. This card has no BIOS flash chip, which means it should not
show up in the BIOS interface. I was hoping to verify it was non-bootable,
but the advertising copy doesn't mention it. (Some of the reviews report it is
not bootable.) There is an almost identical card below if from Syba, that has
the flash chip soldered in place, and Newegg charges a whole dollar more for
that one. But using the version with the flash chip in place, would cause
the same problem as the SIL3112 card. So this should fix the problem - as long
as you have a driver for the chip, for your OS.

SYBA SY-VIA-150 PCI SATA / IDE Combo Controller Card, Non Raid - Retail $13.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815124022

Paul