Backup needs a floppy?

D

DeanB

Hi all,

This is not really all that annoying to me, its just somewhat funny.
When I right-click on a hard drive and go to Properties | Tools |
Backup, it requires a floppy disk drive for the process to work. Says
it will create a boot disk. Can't make it select the DVD drive as an
alternative. Am I reading this wrong? Didn't they stop making FDD's a
while back?
 
G

Gordon

DeanB said:
Hi all,

This is not really all that annoying to me, its just somewhat funny.
When I right-click on a hard drive and go to Properties | Tools |
Backup, it requires a floppy disk drive for the process to work. Says
it will create a boot disk. Can't make it select the DVD drive as an
alternative. Am I reading this wrong? Didn't they stop making FDD's a
while back?


Presumably you are using the backup function included in Windows XP Pro?
It's not a good product - you would be well advised to get a commercial
application like Acronis true image. Also be aware that the XP backup
function won't backup directly to CDR or DVD at all anyway.
 
K

Ken Blake, MVP

Hi all,

This is not really all that annoying to me, its just somewhat funny.
When I right-click on a hard drive and go to Properties | Tools |
Backup, it requires a floppy disk drive for the process to work. Says
it will create a boot disk. Can't make it select the DVD drive as an
alternative. Am I reading this wrong? Didn't they stop making FDD's a
while back?



No, you're not reading it wrong, and no, they haven't stopped making
floppy drives. Although many, if not most, computers come without
floppy drives these days, they are still available, and if you want
one, you can buy and install one very easily and inexpensively. My
personal preference is to have a floppy drive on all my computers. I
need to use one *very* seldom, but for the $5-10 US that they cost,
it's worth having it available.

By the way, the built-in Windows backup program is probably the
poorest backup program available. There are several better choices,
and I personally think it's worth spending a few dollars to get a
better product, such as Acronis True Image, my personal favorite.
 
D

DeanB

Thats because the NTBackup app was designed when cd/dvd's were not in
existance







- Show quoted text -

So how does Acronis compare to norton ghost (which I have)?
 
P

Poprivet`

DeanB said:
So how does Acronis compare to norton ghost (which I have)?

Very similar IMO, others may argue for either one or even different ones. I
tried them both and stuck with Norton because it seemed to "fit" more with
the way I like to work. I'd say either is a very good choice.

Pop`
 
P

philo

DeanB said:
Hi all,

This is not really all that annoying to me, its just somewhat funny.
When I right-click on a hard drive and go to Properties | Tools |
Backup, it requires a floppy disk drive for the process to work. Says
it will create a boot disk. Can't make it select the DVD drive as an
alternative. Am I reading this wrong? Didn't they stop making FDD's a
while back?


You could never backup any significant amount of data to a floppy...the idea
is absurd...
the utility was used more for tape drive backups.

To backup your data...don't bother with any utilites at all...
just burn anything you need to save directly to cd or dvd!
 
R

robDotCalm

I recently bought 2 Seagate external hard drives for backup (one in use and
the other in a fire resistant safe). In using Windows Backup, I too ran
into the problem that for a system backup I needed a floppy drive for a
restart in an emergency situation. I downloaded the Acronis Lite (free)
version from Seagate. Like some other commercial backup software I tried, it
has one very annoying feature: it does not flip the archive attribute. Thus
if the attribute is +a before backing up with Acronis Lite, it's still that
afterwards. Question: is this also true in the full version. I can live with
Windows Backup, but it's klutzy. However, I'm not willing to go to a backup
program that can't even flip the archive attribute.

Cheers,
Rob.calm
 
U

Unknown

The purpose of the floppy was not to back-up data. It was to repair any boot
problem at the beginning of the HD.
 
P

philo

Unknown said:
The purpose of the floppy was not to back-up data. It was to repair any boot
problem at the beginning of the HD.


Yes , for win2k or XP
all you need do is format a floppy, then copy boot.ini, ntdetect.com & ntldr
to it...
if your "boot files" go bad or missing, the floppy will boot you right to
the GUI...a good tool to have...
especially if you are inclined to edit boot.ini !
 
D

DeanB

Yes , for win2k or XP
all you need do is format a floppy, then copy boot.ini, ntdetect.com & ntldr
to it...
if your "boot files" go bad or missing, the floppy will boot you right to
the GUI...a good tool to have...
especially if you are inclined to edit boot.ini !

Still I don't see why it can't offer to make a boot CD or boot DVD
instead of a boot floppy.
 
P

philo

Still I don't see why it can't offer to make a boot CD or boot DVD
instead of a boot floppy.


Some of the "old stuff" still lurks in Windows...

you can make a bootable cd using 3rd party software
 
J

John John

DeanB said:
Still I don't see why it can't offer to make a boot CD or boot DVD
instead of a boot floppy.

The ASR floppy is *not* a boot floppy and it doesn't repair boot
problems! You will not be able to boot the computer with that floppy
diskette. When you boot the computer with your Windows XP cd and select
the F2 option to do an ASR (Automated System Recovery) you will be asked
to provide the ASR floppy for the restore process, without the floppy
the ASR restore process cannot be done.

You can use the NTBackup utility to do backups without needing a floppy
diskette, just select to do a regular backup instead of the ASR backup.
You can still do an ASR backup without a floppy diskette, the ASR
files Asr.sif and Asrpnp.sif will be placed in the systemroot\repair
folder, these files can be copied to another media source or to another
networked computer with a floppy drive and they can then be copied to a
floppy diskette. The ASR restore *cannot* be done locally without a
floppy diskette, it is the same as trying to supply other files like
controller drivers or answer files, during the text mode portion of
Windows XP installation, these files *must* be supplied on a floppy
diskette.

As stated earlier the floppy contains the Asr.sif and Asrpnp.sif files.
The asr.sif file contains information about the disk configuration and
the restore itself (the asrpnp.sif file contains information about the
plug and play devices in your computer). The ASR process will format
the system/boot drives or volumes and with the information in the
asr.sif file it will it restore the disk signatures, volumes, and
partitions. The information contained in the asr.sif file is needed at
this stage of the restore process because the signatures, volumes or
partitions must be restored before the restore process proceeds to
install a basic copy of Windows, the rest of the restore process will
then be done by the basic Windows installation. The system and boot
volumes or partitions cannot be changed after the basic Windows copy is
installed, it must be done at this early stage in the ASR restore process.

While basic disks hold their partition information in the partition
table, and assuming that the table was intact after a disaster,
conceivably the restore could proceed without the disk configuration
information in the asr.sif file. However, if the partition table were
to be damaged, without the information on the floppy diskette the ASR
restore would have no way of being able to restore the partition table.

As for Dynamic Disks and Dynamic Volumes, the disk and volume
information is actually stored in a private region of the disk in the
Logical Disk Manager (LDM) database. The LDM database contains volume
types, offsets, memberships, and drive letters of each volume. When the
ASR restore process formats the drive the LDM database is lost (erased)
and it too must be restored from the information in the asr.sif file, it
too must be restored before the basic Windows copy is installed. The
use of Dynamic Disks is not too prevalent on workstations but they are
often used on mission critical servers, Dynamic Disks are more reliable
and recoverable than basic disks.

ASR is only meant to be used to backup the system and boot volumes, it
is meant to backup the operating system and system state data only. Do
not rely on ASR for your personal data backups, data should be backed up
by other backup methods. ASR is a "Bare Metal" restore process, it is
only meant to be used as a last resort. As others have already pointed
out the use of "cloning" utilities is more prevalent than ASR and these
utilities are for most part just as easy, if not easier to use than ASR.
Keep in mind however that few of the SOHO or Workstation versions of
these cloning utilities can actually do "Dynamic Disks". You will
usually need a "Server Version" of the cloning utility to do Dynamic
Disks and these server versions are usually pretty pricey, $500 to $700
and more not being unusual for these server versions.

John
 
X

Xandros

DeanB said:
So how does Acronis compare to norton ghost (which I have)?

Acronis is superior in every way to Ghost. In other words think of what
Ghost can do and Acronis TrueImage 11 does it better, faster, safer, more
efficiently with more options. And it is not a Symantec product.
 
X

Xandros

John John said:
DeanB said:
Still I don't see why it can't offer to make a boot CD or boot DVD
instead of a boot floppy.

The ASR floppy is *not* a boot floppy and it doesn't repair boot problems!
You will not be able to boot the computer with that floppy diskette. When
you boot the computer with your Windows XP cd and select the F2 option to
do an ASR (Automated System Recovery) you will be asked to provide the ASR
floppy for the restore process, without the floppy the ASR restore process
cannot be done.
[snip]

John

You info is good John except for one detail. The NTBackup program that ships
with XP Home version can not do an ASR. That function is stripped out of the
POS.
 
J

John John

Xandros said:
DeanB said:
The purpose of the floppy was not to back-up data. It was to repair any

boot


problem at the beginning of the HD.

Yes , for win2k or XP
all you need do is format a floppy, then copy boot.ini, ntdetect.com &
ntldr
to it...
if your "boot files" go bad or missing, the floppy will boot you right to
the GUI...a good tool to have...
especially if you are inclined to edit boot.ini !


Still I don't see why it can't offer to make a boot CD or boot DVD
instead of a boot floppy.

The ASR floppy is *not* a boot floppy and it doesn't repair boot problems!
You will not be able to boot the computer with that floppy diskette. When
you boot the computer with your Windows XP cd and select the F2 option to
do an ASR (Automated System Recovery) you will be asked to provide the ASR
floppy for the restore process, without the floppy the ASR restore process
cannot be done.

[snip]


John


You info is good John except for one detail. The NTBackup program that ships
with XP Home version can not do an ASR. That function is stripped out of the
POS.

True, XP Home does not support ASR. But I don't think that is because
of the NTBackup utility, I stand to be corrected but as far as I know
the version that ships with XP home is the same as the one that ships
with XP Pro. My XP Pro here has NTBackup version 5.1.2600.2180. I
don't have XP Home to verify the version but somebody else could confirm
the version number on the Home Edition.

I think that the reason that ASR isn't supported in XP Home is that the
ASR feature is just not available in the XP Home Setup Program, when you
boot with the XP Home CD I don't think that the option to perform ASR is
available, I don't have an XP Home cd here to check. Also, disk/file
system features are quite different between the XP Home and Pro
versions. XP Home does not support Dynamic Disks and it doesn't support
EFS.

John
 
X

Xandros

John John said:
Xandros said:
DeanB wrote:







The purpose of the floppy was not to back-up data. It was to repair
any

boot


problem at the beginning of the HD.

Yes , for win2k or XP
all you need do is format a floppy, then copy boot.ini, ntdetect.com &
ntldr
to it...
if your "boot files" go bad or missing, the floppy will boot you right
to
the GUI...a good tool to have...
especially if you are inclined to edit boot.ini !


Still I don't see why it can't offer to make a boot CD or boot DVD
instead of a boot floppy.

The ASR floppy is *not* a boot floppy and it doesn't repair boot
problems! You will not be able to boot the computer with that floppy
diskette. When you boot the computer with your Windows XP cd and select
the F2 option to do an ASR (Automated System Recovery) you will be asked
to provide the ASR floppy for the restore process, without the floppy the
ASR restore process cannot be done.

[snip]


John


You info is good John except for one detail. The NTBackup program that
ships with XP Home version can not do an ASR. That function is stripped
out of the POS.

True, XP Home does not support ASR. But I don't think that is because of
the NTBackup utility, I stand to be corrected but as far as I know the
version that ships with XP home is the same as the one that ships with XP
Pro. My XP Pro here has NTBackup version 5.1.2600.2180. I don't have XP
Home to verify the version but somebody else could confirm the version
number on the Home Edition.

I think that the reason that ASR isn't supported in XP Home is that the
ASR feature is just not available in the XP Home Setup Program, when you
boot with the XP Home CD I don't think that the option to perform ASR is
available, I don't have an XP Home cd here to check. Also, disk/file
system features are quite different between the XP Home and Pro versions.
XP Home does not support Dynamic Disks and it doesn't support EFS.

John

From the README.TXT file that is in the ValueADD/MSFT/NTBackup directory on
the XP Home CD:
[quote is between -----------]
------------------------
NTBackup Backup/Restore and ASR release notes

Backup/Restore

ASR

1. ASR is not supported on home edition.

IF you install NtBackup from the CD to the Home Edition, ASR functionality
will appear to work fine during
the backup session. Since the setup does not support ASR in the home
edition, there is no way to initiate
the ASR restore in case of a disaster. If you need to restore from this
session, install Windows XP manually
and then restore from the ASR media.

2. Backup to CDRW

If you decide to backup to a CDRW, you cannot target that device directly.
You must create a backup set of
650MB or less and backup to a file. After the file is complete, copy the
file to the CDRW.

Please refer to the readme for XP home edition for additional notes.
 

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