ATX Form Factor

[Dave C.]

Who says you can't do better

You know? IMHO that's a good point.

BTW, isn't this thread OT for alt.comp.hardware.homebuilt? It's not
like you are talking about producing your own mobo at home.

You've GOT to be kidding. BTX is probably the most ON-topic thread in the
ng at the moment. If we wanted to produce our own non-compliant
motherboard, we'd all be hanging out in a dell ng. But we're interested in
building standard non-proprietary systems, so the new form factor is what
most homebuilders SHOULD be interested in. -Dave

 

[Matt]

Even so, I suspect the avg CPU load on the "global PC" is 2%,
with 98% being the HALT instruction. We are trying to achieve
the power of a human, in a machine - which makes me wonder
if it's achieved when the machine is as inefficient as the human

Yes, all computers wait at the same speed.

 

[Matt]

Noting Telco are up to 20-way motherboards as routine now, we may also
see similar in the PC world which will be interesting - albeit expensive.

I guess you mean expensive energy-wise. A 2.4G P4 might be $20 two
years from now.

Can you say anything about the prospects within the next five years of
running 20 CPUs that are as fast as those of today on one board using
say 100W altogether?. I mean is there any hope of a 20-fold improvement
in energy consumption of CPUs within five years---the Gflop rate per CPU
remaining constant?

 

[ToolPackinMama]

You've GOT to be kidding. BTX is probably the most ON-topic thread in the
ng at the moment. If we wanted to produce our own non-compliant
motherboard, we'd all be hanging out in a dell ng.

Huh? Is that a joke? I don't get it.

 

[Dorothy Bradbury]

Can you say anything about the prospects within the next five years of

running 20 CPUs that are as fast as those of today on one board using
say 100W altogether?. I mean is there any hope of a 20-fold improvement
in energy consumption of CPUs within five years---the Gflop rate per CPU
remaining constant?

Interesting question.

o Take a current CPU
o Sacrifice half the performance
o You only require 1/7th the power

So for a constant performance, wattage required will fall.
o P-M is at least 70% the performance of a P4 but ~1/5 the watts

Admittedly, it's not so certain it will continue going forward.

As for multiple CPUs on one board:
o Comes down to application appropriateness
o For many applications 2 CPU has benefits
o For fewer applications 4 CPU have benefits
o For very few applications >>4 CPU have benefits
---- probably genetics re 4? parameters lots of chains
---- think there was a NEC? board with 200+ CPU on it

CPU power output growth is going to fall to probably 5%/yr.
However, I can see other areas seeing growth - memory for
one as we focus on system/transport/IO performance growth.

Graphics are seeing big wattage growth in 1) GPU & 2) RAM.
Anti-aliasing is one area which eats processing power comprehensively.

 

[Anon]

Wow, I was just about ready to build a new "super system" - by my standards
anyway. Now, I'm not so sure that I'll do it. Why put all that money into
a great ATX case, MB, etc.. 'Sounds like everything will truly be obsolete.
What I was hoping for was building a system that I could upgrade along the
way. This all sounds like a MAJOR change. Do most of you agree?

You're failing to see the big picture. Technology changes so fast that
building a system to upgrade "along the way" is nearly impossible. For
example, buy a new mainboard with cheap CPU thinking of upgrading CPU later
.. . . only to learn that the CPU you want "later" isn't supported by the
mainboard. Same with video card . . . buy mainboard and CPU thinking to
upgrade video card later, and learn that video card you want isn't
supported. This has nothing to do with BTX, except that BTX will aggravate
the problem for a few months.

What I mean by that is, those who build systems shortly after BTX gains
widespread acceptance will find that they need to buy a new case. They
should already be buying a new motherboard, power supply, CPU, RAM and
probably video card as well. But on THIS particular (replacing an ATX
system), they will not be able to recycle a case.

Bottom line, anything you build today will be obsolete next year, regardless
of what form factor is popular then. If you want to build, BUILD. Putting
off a build waiting for new technology is pointless. After BTX is
commonplace, newer technology will be just a few days, weeks or months away.
So are you going to wait for BTX and THEN wait for something else? -Dave

 

[Gary Tait]

Huh? Is that a joke? I don't get it.

At least BTX tries to be a standard.

 

[Roy Coorne]

Anon wrote:
....

Bottom line, anything you build today will be obsolete next year, regardless
of what form factor is popular then. If you want to build, BUILD. Putting
off a build waiting for new technology is pointless. After BTX is
commonplace, newer technology will be just a few days, weeks or months away.
So are you going to wait for BTX and THEN wait for something else? -Dave

If you want to build, build now... a good (reliable, stable) system
which allows you to skip BTX Rev.1.0 and calmly wait for BTX Rev.2.0 -
when the initial series of bugs have been fixed and prices have calmed
down.

Roy

 

[Bob Adkins]

Again, how do y'all feel about waiting for the BTX form factor? I don't see
putting $2,000+ in a new homebuilt (ATX) system, only to have it obsolete in
terms of upgrading by the end of the year. I wonder what premium there will
be for BTX form-factor components at the get-go??? Thanks...

I wouldn't hesitate to buy a nice ATX system now. Just be sure to get the
latest stuff, and avoid mega-expensive items like $500 graphics cards.

P4's and today's hardware are way ahead of the curve. 386, 486, Pentium, and
even P2 barely kept ahead of software bloat. Hardware and software have
matured to the point that they are not doubling in performance and bulk at
the rate they were 3-4 years ago. My P4 2.8 feels no older than it did a
year or so ago when I bought it.

The worst thing that could happen is about half your stuff could be obsolete
in 2 years, which is not bad compared to 5 years ago.

Bob

Remove "kins" from address to reply.

 

[Bob Adkins]

::rolling eyes:: What would it take to convince those geniuses to agree
on a standard size screw?

And for gosh sakes, get rid of ALL those Molex plugs. And I hope they are
doing something about the pinouts for power and HDD LEDS, reset, USB, Etc.
My eyes aren't getting any better you know?

Bob

Remove "kins" from address to reply.

 

[Bob Adkins]

Indeed, the ATX standard could have been developed over the years.

I figured there would be new "versions" of ATX just like the ATA and USB
standards. ATA is mature, reliable, standard, and actually pretty neat these
days. I hate to see it go, but, I suppose we must move on.

Bob

Remove "kins" from address to reply.

 

[tony]

There are many changes later this year:
o new PCI Architecture -- PCI-X replacing AGP/PCI

That should read 'PCI Express'. PCI-X exists already but is mostly (only?)
in
servers currently and it's a different specification.

Tony

 

[tony]

| Crikey, feel like I've just come round from a coma or something! BTX wtf is
| BTX ... never heard of it!!

It's a new plan by hardware companies such as Intel to make a shitload of

money!

That does seem so very true: create a spec with a strange overlapping layout
of
components so it's hard to make trully innovative computer designs. We need,
IMO,
motherboards that fit in a space the size of a CD drive (height can vary),
airflow
could snake around the components, expansion slots below the motherboard
perhaps off of a riser rather than off to the side which makes the board
huge.
Pico-sized systems should be based around the 3.5 inch size (3.5" DVD drives
anyone? ).

Aside:

With USB 2.0 and perhaps external SATA in the future too, I don't think I'll
be buying
internal removable-storage drives (floppy drives and CD/DVD) anymore,
especially in
businesses, too costly and unnecessary: just pass the external unit around
as needed
and plug it in to the USB or SATA port.

Tony

 

[tony]

Again, how do y'all feel about waiting for the BTX form factor? I don't see
putting $2,000+ in a new homebuilt (ATX) system, only to have it obsolete in
terms of upgrading by the end of the year. I wonder what premium there will
be for BTX form-factor components at the get-go??? Thanks...

I'm waiting for BTX and pci-express systems to start shipping before I
build myself a nice system based on the ATX/PCI stuff. The prices on
that stuff should be a bargain then. I would like to have SATA 300 though
so I hope that becomes available soon. SATA 300 will be my one splurge
item.

Tony

 

[tony]

I don't know, but probably I am willing to defer to Intel's engineering
expertise on this. This is an enormous corporation that can hire the
best engineering talent in the world. I don't think you will get
anywhere by supposing that they are incompetent.

Let's see. It took about 20 years for that industry to figure out that
_quiet_
was a desireable design parameter. So much for engineering competency.
They are still in in denial about the heat thing too: all they see is
desktops and
laptops and they fail to see any desireable or lucrative configurations
within those
segments. Big companies don't innovate (they sometimes buy companies that do
though, e.g., MS does this but their flagship product is still unwieldly).

So you'd/we'd be better off if you weren't such "a believer" (remember,
money is the
root of all evil). If you simply trust and buy blindly, you'll be promoting
another
highly paid manager in some big company to sit on his ass and rearrange
his desk all day.

Tony

 

[tony]

I have no idea why Intel would propose changes that are mostly cosmetic, and
seem to do more harm than good in some cases. What I'm most confused about
though, is why the whole form factor is being dictated by Intel. That's
like BMW dictating that all cars will have five wheels, and all other car
makers going along with it for some odd reason. -Dave

It's smoke and mirrors. They've been leap-frogged by VIA's direction (small
and low
heat PCs of all kinds) and don't want to admit it by jumping on the
bandwagon.

Tony

 

[Gary Tait]

I figured there would be new "versions" of ATX just like the ATA and USB

Except ATA and USB are primarily electronic standards. AT/ATX/BTX are
primarily mechanical.