Athlon 64 X2 5200+ Temps

[Skeleton Man]

Hi all,

My new setup with the athlon x2 seems to run way too hot.. with the stock
cooler at stock speed/voltage the idle core temps reach 60 - 68C with the
case closed.. (Silverstone Temjin TJ04 case)

If I open up the side of the case, I get core temperature readings of
between 50 - 56C (external CPU temp is 44C).. Core #2 always reads at least
5 degrees higher than core 1 though..

I have one 120mm intake fan mounted infront of my hard drives at the bottom
of the case, and another 120mm exhaust fan mounted at the rear just below
the PSU (these run at ~1000RPM).

It worries me, because I have seen people claim that theirs doesn't get
higher than 29C..

I must not be getting enough airflow, because in addition to the
temperatures, the CPU fan reads about 3300RPM with the case open, but 5500 -
6000RPM with it closed.. should I look for a better cooler or buy more
powerful case fans ? There are no mountings for extra fans, so I have to
work with just the two.. I think all the intake fan is doing is cooling my
hard drives and not much else..

Can you buy intake fans that mount in two 5.25" bays ? The bottom two bays
are unused in my case and line up close to the same height as the CPU.. I
don't want one of those coolers that mounts in a single bay with like two
little 40mm fans on either side.. I'd like something a little heavier..

Regards,
Chris

 

[kony]

Hi all,

My new setup with the athlon x2 seems to run way too hot.. with the stock
cooler at stock speed/voltage the idle core temps reach 60 - 68C with the
case closed.. (Silverstone Temjin TJ04 case)

If I open up the side of the case, I get core temperature readings of
between 50 - 56C (external CPU temp is 44C).. Core #2 always reads at least
5 degrees higher than core 1 though..

This does tend to suggest your case intake is insufficient,
but the stock heatsink should do better than this, I'd try
removal, cleaning CPU & it off, then applying fresh thermal
compound - just a tiny bit.

I have one 120mm intake fan mounted infront of my hard drives at the bottom
of the case, and another 120mm exhaust fan mounted at the rear just below
the PSU (these run at ~1000RPM).

Ok, but how about the obstructions to flow from these fans?
The front bezel or mere holes stamped out of the case wall
make for a poor fan hole relative to a large open area.
Since we can't see your case, you'll have to determine how
much of a factor this is. Certainly at only 1000 RPM there
is some room for higher fan speed, but unless there is a lot
more hot-running hardware you haven't told us about, a pair
of 120mm fans @ 1000 RPM should be sufficient in keeping CPU
cooler than it is.

What about the room temp? We'll presume it is moderate, not
hot, (like under 28C) until told otherwise.

It worries me, because I have seen people claim that theirs doesn't get
higher than 29C..

They must be measuring it at idle, is yours idle or at some
partial load? It doesn't really matter though, the temp to
focus on is that at full load. Even so, that yours is up to
68C in any state is already indication something needs done,
unless you suspect the board is reporting temps wrong - in
which case a bios update would be in order.

I must not be getting enough airflow, because in addition to the
temperatures, the CPU fan reads about 3300RPM with the case open, but 5500 -
6000RPM with it closed.. should I look for a better cooler or buy more
powerful case fans ? There are no mountings for extra fans, so I have to
work with just the two.. I think all the intake fan is doing is cooling my
hard drives and not much else..

While it may seem that way, it increases case pressurization
which helps the rear fan exhaust at higher rate at any given
RPM, but of course for maximum effectiveness the air
passages have to be as unobstructed as reasonably possible,
an area where many cases fail miserably when one wants a
quiet system instead of fans at higher speed/noise to
compensate for a case weakness.

Looking at the front of your case, it looks very sleek, and
very poor for intake unless the entire front is a micro-mesh
too fine to be captured by the camera.
http://www.ninjalane.com/images/sst-tj04-b/case_front.jpg

While it wouldn't look as good afterwards, one possible
solution would be to cut out a (slightly undersized)
120x120mm square hole, and put a black mesh filter panel on
the front. It also seems a shame to cut on the case though,
if you would rather put a fan in the side panel that may
work too, so long as you keep the front fan so there is at
least a little airflow past the HDD rack. Here's what the
mesh panels I'm thinking of look like, but I'm too lazy to
hunt down a black one at the moment, I think maybe
Directron.com, nexfan.com or Svc.com may have some... but
I'm sure a Google search will find them.
http://www.mnpctech.com/mesh.jpg
.... and of course it's not black but some are.

Can you buy intake fans that mount in two 5.25" bays ?

yes, but I don't think you need them and they will be worse
than a bottom front intake.

The bottom two bays
are unused in my case and line up close to the same height as the CPU.. I
don't want one of those coolers that mounts in a single bay with like two
little 40mm fans on either side.. I'd like something a little heavier..

If you want the ultimate custom look, take a 80-92mm fan and
trace it's inside opening onto two of your bay blanks taped
together, then cut out the hole and mounting screw holes.
Next screw or glue the two blanks together to make them one
piece and put the fan in.

If the cut results in light metal showing up, you can get a
blackening pin used by gunsmiths to darken metal, or just
use a Sharpie Industrial marker (more durable than a regular
sharpie because it's lacquer based) to color that area
black, or put a filter panel on the front, but again I dont'
think you need this as much as more lower intake area- it
isn't as important where the air comes in as it is that the
air flow over as many parts as possible... remember that if
the air gets heated some before it gets to the CPU, that is
a good thing, it means the temps of the parts it passed over
are then lowered. If CPU is still too warm it signals a
flow rate too low, but I would remount the heatsink before
doing anything else.

 

[Skeleton Man]

This does tend to suggest your case intake is insufficient,

but the stock heatsink should do better than this, I'd try
removal, cleaning CPU & it off, then applying fresh thermal
compound - just a tiny bit.

I have done this already.. the temps were even worse before hand.. (the
thermal tape basically disintegrated into nothing)

Ok, but how about the obstructions to flow from these fans?
The front bezel or mere holes stamped out of the case wall
make for a poor fan hole relative to a large open area.
Since we can't see your case, you'll have to determine how
much of a factor this is. Certainly at only 1000 RPM there
is some room for higher fan speed, but unless there is a lot
more hot-running hardware you haven't told us about, a pair
of 120mm fans @ 1000 RPM should be sufficient in keeping CPU
cooler than it is.

The front bezel is solid aluminium.. there's a series of slits underneath
the bezel.. (http://www.silverstonetek.com/images/products/tj04/tj04-06.jpg)

Both fans openings are just a series of holes punches in the metal.. and
as for other hardware, just a pair of 7200RPM Western digitals.. one at the
top of the hdd bay and one near the bottom.. I guess I could move them both
to the very bottom and sacrifice some of the hdd cooling for better cpu
cooling..

I have an ATI Radeon X1600 Pro graphics card, but that doesn't even get warm
and has it's own hsf anyway.. the first x16 slot is about the same height
as the top of the intake fan/hdd bay, so it could be restricting airflow
around the case.. I'm gonna try it in the second x16 to see if it works..
(according to the mb manual you're supposed to use the first slot for a
single card configuration)

Thanks Kony..

Chris

 

[kony]

I have done this already.. the temps were even worse before hand.. (the
thermal tape basically disintegrated into nothing)

Did you get it all off previously? Is it possible there is
a surface irregularity on the CPU heat-spreader or heatsink
base? These numbers seem quite high, it is the retail AMD
heatsink right? The one with (forget the # of...) 3 or 4
heatpipes and copper base or w/o heatpipes?

I'd try a more telling test, not just having case open but
pointing a desk fan towards it. If your temps are below 40C
at stock speed & voltage, and you're sure the motherboard
sensor report is correct (if you need more research, do
that, I don't know...), AND you're sure the heatsink is
installed as well as possible, then I would try another
heatsink, but others have gotten lower temps with the stock
'sink so something is odd.

The front bezel is solid aluminium.. there's a series of slits underneath
the bezel.. (http://www.silverstonetek.com/images/products/tj04/tj04-06.jpg)

Well at least they made a feeble effort, but it's hardly
enough. For best results you do need to find a way to get
more air in. Not having the case it's hard to advise
further, if the metal is very thick and you happened to have
a drill press, and an eye for accuracy, you could mark out a
regular pattern and put some rows of holes into the front,
but it's a YMMV situation, if you'd end up with a result you
like. The side panel and a single larger fan hole would be
the easiest thing now that the system is assembled.

Both fans openings are just a series of holes punches in the metal..

I can't see what % that leaves open for the airflow, but
it's starting to seem like the best result will be
completely stripping down the case and fixing their design
blunders. Even so, I'd point the desk fan at it open first,
no matter how good the case airflow is, if the temp doesn't
respond to that then you're left with one subsystem improved
but another still falling short.

and
as for other hardware, just a pair of 7200RPM Western digitals.. one at the
top of the hdd bay and one near the bottom.. I guess I could move them both
to the very bottom and sacrifice some of the hdd cooling for better cpu
cooling..

Don't worry about direct airflow path from fan to CPU, that
is not so important at all, except that in some HDD
placements, they could divert more air away from the video
card... which matters more if it's passively cooled than if
wearing a fan.

The primary impact to CPU is case intake rate, not the path
inside the case as the mid and top rear fans will cause the
air to flow past the region anyway.

I have an ATI Radeon X1600 Pro graphics card, but that doesn't even get warm
and has it's own hsf anyway.. the first x16 slot is about the same height
as the top of the intake fan/hdd bay, so it could be restricting airflow
around the case.. I'm gonna try it in the second x16 to see if it works..
(according to the mb manual you're supposed to use the first slot for a
single card configuration)

Don't worry too much about that, your primary problem is the
case or 'sink and even with the minor changes like moving
the video card, the total heat production in the system
remains the same and will respond best to an overall airflow
rate increase. You could just crank the fans up really high
(or replace them with higher speed models) but that is a
really loud way to get the job done.

Cutting out the fan grill areas plus a big hole in the front
of the bezel is the most obvious solution, but I leave it to
you to determine if you can get that done without it looking
too ghetto. The side-panel fan is easier, particularly if
you have or can get a hole saw of the right size (depending
on size of fan, I'd go for at least one x 92mm or larger, or
two 80mm. Even then it will help to have the rear exhaust
opened up more, and if your PSU has a mostly obstructed
stamped-in-metal grill too, it may extend the PSU lifespan
to cut that out also.

 

[Skeleton Man]

Did you get it all off previously? Is it possible there is

a surface irregularity on the CPU heat-spreader or heatsink
base? These numbers seem quite high, it is the retail AMD
heatsink right? The one with (forget the # of...) 3 or 4
heatpipes and copper base or w/o heatpipes?

Plain old aliminium heatsink with 80mm fan.. didn't get a heatpipe cooler
with mine..

I pulled the heatsink again, cleaned the thermal grease off, and re-applied
a small amount of great in a line in the middle of the heatspreader.. This
gave me about an 8C difference in temperature.. but as soon as it warmed up
after like 10 mins, the temperatures came back to the mid 50s.. (external
CPU temperature around 46C)

I even tried putting the heatsink on the other way around.. (with the latch
at the top instead of the bottom).. but as I figured it makes no difference
which way I mount it..

As for the deskfan.. zero difference.. with the fan pointed the right way
I'm lucky if it cools it by 1 - 2C.. so maybe something else is wrong..

Measured the base of the heatsink with my meter (dmm + temperature probe)
and reads about 39C.. the warm air coming from next to the heatsink is
around 37C.. according to everest ultimate edition, it reads 42C for the
mainboard, 46 for external cpu diode, 53C for core1 and 58C for core 2..

Is there any way I can safely measure the temperature of the heatspreader on
the cpu ?

Regards,
Chris

 

[Joel]

Is there any way I can safely measure the temperature of the heatspreader on
the cpu ?

I don't remember the name of the program or util, but I knew there are
several aps can measure the temperature of CASE and CPU. And even the CMOS
itself has the feature too.

 

[kony]

Plain old aliminium heatsink with 80mm fan.. didn't get a heatpipe cooler
with mine..

I pulled the heatsink again, cleaned the thermal grease off, and re-applied
a small amount of great in a line in the middle of the heatspreader.. This
gave me about an 8C difference in temperature.. but as soon as it warmed up
after like 10 mins, the temperatures came back to the mid 50s.. (external
CPU temperature around 46C)

I even tried putting the heatsink on the other way around.. (with the latch
at the top instead of the bottom).. but as I figured it makes no difference
which way I mount it..

As for the deskfan.. zero difference.. with the fan pointed the right way
I'm lucky if it cools it by 1 - 2C.. so maybe something else is wrong..

Measured the base of the heatsink with my meter (dmm + temperature probe)
and reads about 39C.. the warm air coming from next to the heatsink is
around 37C.. according to everest ultimate edition, it reads 42C for the
mainboard, 46 for external cpu diode, 53C for core1 and 58C for core 2..

Is there any way I can safely measure the temperature of the heatspreader on
the cpu ?

I'd think there isn't a need to do that, but I would
double-check the CPU voltage... the setting, the bios
monitor reading (Or in windows) and if you are able, take a
meter reading (last set of inductors, the output leg of one
is a typical place on the front of a board, it is easier
with a needle probe attachment but possibly, possible with a
regular probe tip depending on the board and 'sink).

When are these temps now mid-50s? From now on it would be
best to only reference full load temps, since keeping that
upper threshold under control is the ultimate goal.

If the temp never gets over 65C, you might just concede the
stock 'sink won't do any better (at full load), and IF you
feel a need to lower that temp more, replace the 'sink with
something better.

 

[Skeleton Man]

I'd think there isn't a need to do that, but I would

double-check the CPU voltage... the setting, the bios
monitor reading (Or in windows) and if you are able, take a
meter reading (last set of inductors, the output leg of one
is a typical place on the front of a board, it is easier
with a needle probe attachment but possibly, possible with a
regular probe tip depending on the board and 'sink).

I can't find any details about exactly where to find it on my board (or even
a simmilar model).. should I be looking around the CPU socket ? (top left
corner of the board)

There's two toroids (one bigger than the other) and a bunch of caps near the
front of the board (top right) infront of the RAM.. is this the right area ?

When are these temps now mid-50s? From now on it would be
best to only reference full load temps, since keeping that
upper threshold under control is the ultimate goal.

Mid 50's is idle temps.. under full load (2x prime95 torture test) the
temperatures are around 69C..

If the temp never gets over 65C, you might just concede the
stock 'sink won't do any better (at full load), and IF you
feel a need to lower that temp more, replace the 'sink with
something better.

I guess I'll try something with heatpipes and a 120mm fan and see if it
makes a difference..

Regards,
Chris

 

[kony]

I can't find any details about exactly where to find it on my board (or even
a simmilar model).. should I be looking around the CPU socket ? (top left
corner of the board)

Yes it's usually top left area but unless i missed it you
didn't mention what board you have.

There's two toroids (one bigger than the other) and a bunch of caps near the
front of the board (top right) infront of the RAM.. is this the right area ?

Far easier to just wait till I know the board to comment.

Mid 50's is idle temps.. under full load (2x prime95 torture test) the
temperatures are around 69C..


I guess I'll try something with heatpipes and a 120mm fan and see if it
makes a difference..

I would expect it to, no matter what else is causing this...
just a matter of whether you're sure the present sink is on
good w/appropriate thermal compound, case has sufficient
airflow, voltage is right, and motherboard is reporting it
right.

 

[Skeleton Man]

Yes it's usually top left area but unless i missed it you

didn't mention what board you have.

It's an MSI K9NSLI-F.

I would expect it to, no matter what else is causing this...
just a matter of whether you're sure the present sink is on
good w/appropriate thermal compound, case has sufficient
airflow, voltage is right, and motherboard is reporting it
right.

I am pretty sure the heatsink is on right.. I've never had this trouble with
previous systems.. but then again I've always gone for Intel based
solutions because AMD was known for running way too hot.. (but I got a good
deal on an Athlon X2 setup this time and the benchmarks looked good)..

The base of the heatsink is hot to the touch and (on my dmm w/temp probe)
usually reads about 3 degrees cooler than the external CPU temperature..
(which I'm guessing is the CPU case temp).. This would indicate good
contact right ? (if the cpu was hot and the heatsink was barely warm I'd be
worried about contact)

Regards,
Chris

 

[Skeleton Man]

Yes it's usually top left area but unless i missed it you

It's an MSI K9NSLI-F.

Make that an MSI K9N4 SLI-F (missed the 4 out)

Chris

 

[kony]

It's an MSI K9NSLI-F.

They're directly above the 4 pin (12V) socket to the left of
the CPU socket. They look to be surface mount or with
concealed pins, you may not be able to get a reading there
or might have to pull the board out if they're accessible
from the back, so you might see if the surface mount ceramic
caps between them and the socket look right for vcore, but
due to the small size and getting ever closer to the socket
area I can't know if you have access to this area while CPU
& sink are installed. If the board were pulled out there
are probably small power planes right behind the CPU socket
that could be probed with needles, or a reading could be
taken on the cap leads of the caps right above and below
those inductors, directly above the 4 pin socket and to the
left of the CPU socket.

I am pretty sure the heatsink is on right.. I've never had this trouble with
previous systems.. but then again I've always gone for Intel based
solutions because AMD was known for running way too hot.. (but I got a good
deal on an Athlon X2 setup this time and the benchmarks looked good)..

I wouldn't entirely agree with this as there was only one
time Intel looked significantly better, during the very late
Thunderbird and Palomino era, as all later XP had lower peak
temps than the peak for P4, even Northwood let alone
Prescott. But, the difference was negligable until
Prescott.

The base of the heatsink is hot to the touch and (on my dmm w/temp probe)
usually reads about 3 degrees cooler than the external CPU temperature..
(which I'm guessing is the CPU case temp).. This would indicate good
contact right ? (if the cpu was hot and the heatsink was barely warm I'd be
worried about contact)

It may indicate good contact, usually does to the extent
it's getting hot of course but whether optimal or not is
more difficult to determine as a 'sink with poor contact and
clogged with dust so it has minimal airflow will also get
hot, just by virtue of the bit of surface area that is
touching, as the CPU is still a constant heat producer that
must 'sink somehow (or burst into flames, but really shut
off or throttle down in modern CPU) but will be a higher
temp even if 'sink is same temp.

Even so, if you feel it's installed right it probably is.
I'm sure it was one of the first considerations so it would
seem the other factors are now more determinant.

 

[kony]

Make that an MSI K9N4 SLI-F (missed the 4 out)

Chris

MSI sometimes leaves a capacitor position or two empty, it
could be that those empty towards the top left corner of the
CPU socket are also at CPU voltage.