Are mains surge protectors needed in the UK?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Lem
  • Start date Start date
"Johannes H Andersen" <[email protected]>
wrote in message
No, a fuse takes time to burn. In the meantime the spike will do its work.

I still think it would prevent damage to your computer.
A lightening conductor myght be a better bet.

whats the point in saving your computer if you house is burnt out and
gutted?

I guess you can log on and tell folks about it :O)
 
[SNIP informative stuff I'm sure]

I just dont understand this bit..
plug-in protectors cost tens of times more money per protected
appliance.

"tens of times" more than what??
 
John McGaw said:
Do you live in an area where lightning is frequent? A lightning strike that
is merely _near_ to an underground utility circuit can induce damaging
voltages into them meaning that your power mains, telephone, and cable TV
are all possible carriers. Admittedly there is no place in the UK that I've
heard of that experiences the sort of storms that ravage parts of the USA,
Flordia comes immediately to mind, but if you ever do have even one event
then a small investment in protection would be invaluable.

My house (in England) was struck by lightening - great big sodding hole in
the roof, and of course it was raining (doh!). My computer and everything
attached to it was safe as I had a surge protector incly telephone sockets.
Unfortunatelky I didn't have surge protectors on my 2 widescreen TV that
each had a DVD player attached to and my stereo so they all got
fried..........literally there was black scorth marks!!

They say lightening doesn't strike twice, but I have everything on surge
protectors now - Worth every penny imho
 
Lem said:
[...]

See this posting to a second thread started with the same posting
as this one.
It says the following.

====== QUOTE =======


The problem with this quote is that people might think it's too
complicated and simply give up. But protection is a matter of degree.
Clearly if it is a lab with expensive scientific equipment, they would
have more full proof protection, but my assertion is that simple
protection is better than no protection. A 50nF high voltage capacitor
across the appliance can kill many spikes and possibly increase the
life of a PSU, in many cases such protection is already included. Then
you can go on with more elaborate surge protectors for more and more
rare incidents. All these incidents are possible with associated
probabilities. In any case, a decent surge protector is a once only
investment, so why making a fuss about it?
 
Assumed is that lightning confronted everything inside the
house equally. Just not true. Based upon your description,
the circuit from cloud to earth borne charges found a good
path via those TVs. Therefore only TVs suffered a direct
lightning strike incoming and outgoing. Incoming and outgoing
are essential requirements for surge damage. If the computer
only had an incoming path and no outgoing path, then lightning
currents did not pass through nor damage computers. That
complete electrical path to earth ground is the essential
requirement for surge damage. Clearly other household
appliances did not make that same "complete electrical
circuit" connection; therefore were not damaged.

No adjacent protector that will stop, block, or absorb the
transient. An effective protection must shunt (divert,
connect, short circuit) the direct strike to earth so that the
direct strike does not find a better path via TVs. In your
case, that solution was a lightning rod (and not plug-in
protectors that cost tens of times more money per protected
appliance).

But again, first identify why lightning took that path to
earth ground through TVs and not through computers to learn
why damage occurs. First lightning passes through everything
in a circuit from cloud to earth. Only then does something
inside the TVs get damaged - even though other parts also
carries the electrical transient.

Concepts such as 'whole house' protectors and lightning rods
are long ago proven to be superior protection. Why? They
(unlike the ineffective plug-in protector) make a superior
connection to earth ground so that lightning does not find
earthing via TVs or computer.
 
The frequency of destructive surges is about once every
eight years. What is that frequency in your neighborhood?
That is a question that only you (and your long term
neighbors) can answer. Surge damage is a function of
underlying geology, frequency of CG lightning, and a properly
wired building. Properly wired means all incoming utilities
enter at same location and use the same single point earth
ground.

What can affect your frequency of surges? How and what kind
of trees are nearby (that might act as lightning rods)?
Underground utilities such as transcontinental pipeline?
Monolithic earth means better equipotential geology and
therefore less probability of transients. Again, time to
discuss history with the neighbors.

Effective 'whole house' protectors cost about £1 per
protected appliance. Is it necessary? Only you can provide
the other numbers.

In the meantime, plug-in protectors are not effective, cost
tens of times more money per protected appliance, and are
typically undersized. No sense wasting good money on
ineffective protectors that don't even claim to protect from
the typically destructive transient. A protector is only as
effective as its earth ground - which plug-in power strip and
UPS manufacturers fear you might learn.
 
AK said:
My house (in England) was struck by lightening - great big sodding hole in
the roof, and of course it was raining (doh!). My computer and everything
attached to it was safe as I had a surge protector incly telephone sockets.
Unfortunatelky I didn't have surge protectors on my 2 widescreen TV that
each had a DVD player attached to and my stereo so they all got
fried..........literally there was black scorth marks!!

Hint: could you possibly have had the TVs connected to some wiring on
the roof?
 
Bagpuss said:
The only time I know of a lighting strike potentially affecting
equipment round here was where I used to work. But then the lighting
hit a cable outsite, passed down into the network switch then fanned
out from there blowing several PCs and melting the switch unit and the
wall mounted box it was located in. Of course a mains surge protector
would have done nothing for that.

If you have a quick trip fuse box in the house its probably not worth
it.

Circuit breakers and fuses, quick trip or not, will not prevent equipment
faults. They are there to prevent fires after the equipment fault.
 
half_pint said:
How about using a plug with the correct sized fuse in it?

The proper fuse is always a good idea but fuses do not protect from power
line faults. They blow after your 'protected' device is fried and pulling
too much current as a result of it.
 
Lem said:
See this posting to a second thread started with the same posting
as this one.
It says the following.

The article below is misleading. They talk of earthing "all incoming
utilities" but fail to recognize that any incoming 'utility' is not simply
a single wire, as evidenced by their stating "even the CATV wire drops down
to earth ground." It's a coax cable folks, not a 'wire', and the wire in
the middle is not 'earthed' or else there's be no signal. It IS however,
'protected', to some degree, by the shield, which is what's earthed.

Power lines are more problematic. True, the incoming power line 'earth'
should be 'earthed', as they describe, but the others are not, or else your
incoming power would be a direct short to each other through this common
'earth' point.

The 'protection' for power and signal lines is an arc gap suppressor to
that common earth ground which, hopefully, arcs a lightning strike to earth
at that point rather than having it find earth through the devices, or you,
in the home so lucky you end up with only a few hundreds, or thousands, of
volts transients dancing around on the home wiring and your home equipment
with the brunt going through the arc gap suppressors.

Now you, as a human being, are probably safe from those remaining
transients, unless you have your finger stuck in a socket, but electronic
devices are not as they ARE plugged into the socket. And it is those
transients that an in-house transient/surge suppressor is meant to deal
with, not 'lightning strikes' per see.

It is true that small in-house 'protectors' are essentially useless if the
home utilities AREN'T properly protected (earthed) but the implication
derived from the small snippet that if the home has 'proper' incoming surge
suppression that it's then 'safe' for electronic devices (I.E. they're
sufficiently 'protected') is simply hogwash.

It should also be obvious that if the surge protector has no path to earth
then it's function is lost, which means the outlet(s) it's plugged into
must have the proper earth, or it's own wired earth. I.E. Using a '3 wire
to 2 wire adapter' on a surge suppressor disables the majority of it's
protection.

'Protection' is a multistage process. You have the 'protection' on the
utilities themselves, meaning the power company equipment/line outside the
home, which absorb the brunt of most faults. Then there is the protection
going into the home, which depends on the incoming line impedance to limit
the surge. And then you have protection (or lack thereof) from the
'remnants' left on the interior wiring.
 
The frequency of destructive surges is about once every
eight years. What is that frequency in your neighborhood?

Lightning isn't the only cause of surges. I've seen excessive voltage
several times over the last few years. Switching transients, etc.
 
I had a house electrical check a few weeks back from the local council, 2
guys, well one guy and his chimp, while doing it i said i do not want any
testing or surges as i run a large lan, although pre powerd down, they said
it was a good job i told them as at the end its normal to do something and
shove a surge? of some kind around the system.

yep they usualty shove 20,000 volts around IIRC as a surge test. They
do it once in a while at work and we have to unplug all the kit from
the mains.
They said, and i knew before hand even tho switched off at the wall but
still plugged in it could have blown the lot, how true this is i dont know

Potentially yes, espesh if one of the sockets was suspect.
 
I have, and a couple of friends too. We have a flaky power supply round
here and usually have about half a dozen power cuts each winter but we
had a strange one last winter; for several seconds before the power went
off there were big voltage fluctuations. When the power came back I had
a dead PS/2 port on one machine and two friends both had dead PSUs. I've
now got all my kit plugged into and 8-way trailing socket with surge
protector.
We are the same with regard to the fuse box tripping out.

The solution to that is to replace the type B MCBs with type C on the
lighting circuit. I did and have not had a problem with nuisance
tripping since.
 
Strange said:
a friend of mine has had a machine totalled by a surge following a
nearby lightning strike that shot up his phone line, in through the
modem and spaltted his mobo to hell and gone.


I thought BT master sockets, NTE5s, have a built in lightning arrestor?
Maybe they don't, or he has an old type?

Parish
 
See this posting to a second thread started with the same posting
as this one. news:[email protected]

It was posted by an idiot with a bee in his bonnet about "whole house
surge protection", a superficial understanding of his subject, who only
ever posts to threads like this one, and who goes remarkably quiet when
challenged to substantiate his claims or to provide technical detail. A
google.groups search for w_tom in various uk.* groups will provide much
entertainment.

Said idiot is American and refuses to acknowledge that UK/European
wiring, because of its superior earthing system, is not as prone to
surges as American installations. In short, ignore.
 
-
-> My house (in England) was struck by lightening
-
-Did it change colour - say from beige to white? :-)

I hear the whoosh of passing thuneder.

Thanks for the chuckle, Bob.


-Rob
robatwork at mail dot com
 
writes

[more crap from w_tom]
Therefore only TVs suffered a direct
lightning strike incoming and outgoing. Incoming and outgoing
are essential requirements for surge damage.

No shit.
No adjacent protector that will stop, block, or absorb the
transient.

There's a big difference between a direct lightning strike and a
transient arriving via the mains. As you've been told many times.
An effective protection must shunt (divert,
connect, short circuit) the direct strike to earth so that the
direct strike does not find a better path via TVs. In your
case, that solution was a lightning rod

Really? Care to tell me how a lightning strike is going to discriminate
between a roof-mounted lightning rod and a TV aerial? (hint: in the
UK, most houses have a roof-mounted TV aerial.)
(and not plug-in
protectors that cost tens of times more money per protected
appliance).

Absolute bullshit. No-one claims that plug-in surge protectors will
protect against direct lightning strikes. They, however, because of the
decent earthing system available on UK and European mains wiring, do a
good job of shunting spikes and surges to earth, thus protecting the
equipment plugged into them. And they are cheap insurance; 4 to 10 UK
pounds per protector.
Concepts such as 'whole house' protectors and lightning rods
are long ago proven to be superior protection.

Here we go again. In the States, maybe. Not in Europe.
 
writes

[drivelectomy]
typically undersized. No sense wasting good money on
ineffective protectors that don't even claim to protect from
the typically destructive transient. A protector is only as
effective as its earth ground - which plug-in power strip and
UPS manufacturers fear you might learn.

And in Europe, the "earth ground" on mains wiring is good, hence plug-in
surge protectors do the job they were designed to do, shunting the surge
to earth.

In the States, not all power outlets can be assumed to have an earth
connection, so plug-in surge protectors have to shunt surges to the
other phase line, which makes them vastly less effective.
 
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