after 8-10 years, the dream of Nobody's Perfect (Real3D in a console) is coming true


S

Sprite Scaler

sort of, anyway.

rememeber Nobody's Perfect (Seung Ho Chung) aka Binary_Compatible? He
went by a few other names but those were his main ones.

Between the years 1995 and 1997, he predicted that Sega would bring out
a home videogame system in 1998 or 1999 that had a Lockheed Martin
Real3D graphics processor. this was a wonderful and exciting idea at
the time. Real3D had far better graphics technology than 3Dfx, Nvidia,
PowerVR or any other cheap PC 3D accelerator company at the time.
Real3D was almost as good as Silicon Graphics. Real3D was the basis
for all the wonderful graphics in Sega's best 3D arcade games of the
1990s. having this Real3D technology at home would have been a dream.
the idea of having the ability to port Sega's best 3D arcade games to a
home console with little or no loss in visual fidelity, would be a real
miricle. Nobody's Perfect insisted for at least 2 years that the
successor to the Saturn would use a Real3D graphics chip along with
Hitachi's SH-4 CPU. only half of his prediction came true in Dreamcast
(Hitachi SH4 CPU).

The Dreamcast (aka Dural, aka Katana) came along *without* a Lockheed
Real3D GPU as you all know. Dreamcast used Videologic PowerVR2 for
graphics. Then SEGA died as far as being a console provider.

But now in the year 2005, the Xbox 360 is, I believe, basicly what
'Nobody's Perfect' preached, hoped for, and insisted on, as far as
graphics is concerned. just not in a Sega console.

WTF am I talking about you say? Well it's pretty simple. You see,
ATI, who has co-designed the Xbox 360's graphics processor with
Microsoft.... well in addition to the ArtX acquisition in 2000, ATI
bought a significant portion of the old Real3D graphics division that
Lockheed Martin once owned. ATI also took over Real3D's Orlando
Florida offices / labs. This has since been ATI's Orlando research
center for a number of years now.

ATI's work on Xbox 360 graphics processor was an effort of their east
coast facilities: the ones in Massachusetts and Orlando. Some of the
former Real3D engineers worked on Xbox 360 graphics. I read this on
Beyond3D. the owner of that site confirmed it in a very short response.
I'll try to dig it up later.

ATI has some of the patents/IP/technology of the former Real3D in
addition to some ex-Real3D engineers.

Nobody's Perfect, and other individuals that also wanted Real3D
technology in a console back in the 1990s should understand that Xbox
360's graphics processor has some "DNA" so to speak, from Real3D.
because of the Real3D engineers working on it, and the Real3D patents
that ATI has, and most likely applied to Xbox 360 graphics.

on the CPU side of things, Xbox 360 is using PowerPC cores. well if you
remember, SEGA's Model 3 boards of 1996-1998 used a PowerPC 603e.

So, together with the graphics, it makes Xbox 360 closer to the SEGA /
Real3D MODEL 3 arcade board, in its GPU and CPU heritage,
than Sega's own Dreamcast. The Hitachi SH4 and Videologic PowerVR2
chips use in Dreamcast are totally unrelated to Model 3 technology. in
this way, Xbox 360 has MODEL 3 / PowerPC / Real3D "blood" where the
Dreamcast does not.

Xbox 360 is of course, vastly more powerful than Model 3, but what I am
trying to say is, the good aspects of Model 3 and Real3D have been
"sewn" into the Xbox 360, in a much more powerful form because
obviously the Xbox 360 is much newer technology (2004-2005) than the
first Model 3 board (1995-1996)

Nobody's Perfect and some of you *might* be able to therefore concider
the Xbox360 to be a spiritual "MODEL 5" at least on some level.

The bottem line is, for those that still do not understand what what
the hell I am talking about, Xbox 360 has some of the finest
chip-technology inside of it, which will ultimately be a blessing to
game developers, to help them create the best games and the best
looking games on a console, ever.

I wonder if Nobody's Perfect, if he is still on the internet and sees
this post, agrees or disagrees with what I'm saying ????
 
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V

Velocity Girl

The bottem line is, for those that still do not understand what what
the hell I am talking about, Xbox 360 has some of the finest
chip-technology inside of it, which will ultimately be a blessing to
game developers, to help them create the best games and the best
looking games on a console, ever.

haha, good one.

Face the facts, Xbox got matched by 1999 console technology and is
actually getting beat in a few areas. Namely, particle fillrate (Zoe2,
Burnout series)

So, sure the 10MB EDRAM may help Xbox360 win in particle fillrate but it
looses in everything else.

You must be one of those people that still thinks Dreamcast is more
powerful than the PS2. I'd love to see Dreamcast pull of SOul Calibur 3
or God of War. Hell, I'd pay $100 to see it pull of Metal Gear Solid 2,
a game with a particle system so advanced even Xbox couldn't run the
game correctly.
 
R

Relic

Velocity said:
haha, good one.

Face the facts, Xbox got matched by 1999 console technology and is
actually getting beat in a few areas. Namely, particle fillrate (Zoe2,
Burnout series)

So, sure the 10MB EDRAM may help Xbox360 win in particle fillrate but it
looses in everything else.

You must be one of those people that still thinks Dreamcast is more
powerful than the PS2. I'd love to see Dreamcast pull of SOul Calibur 3
or God of War. Hell, I'd pay $100 to see it pull of Metal Gear Solid 2,
a game with a particle system so advanced even Xbox couldn't run the
game correctly.

I dunno about that (given the current crop of PS2 games, I would not);
However, I certainly enjoy my Dreamcast more than I enjoy my PS2
(or XBox and GC for that matter).
 
N

nv55

I am not comparing Xbox 360 to PS3. the PS3 is more powerful on
paper, so we will have to wait to see how that translates in the
realworld when developers get their hands on the final PS3 kits.

I was mostly thinking about Xbox 360 in terms of visual quality,
things that you don't find listed on a spec sheet. it's not about the
amount of polygons or the fillrate or Mhz anymore.

the Xbox 360 and Playstation3 are going to both be huge improvements on
the rather pathetic PS2 and Xbox, which did not impress me at all. I
was not overally impressed with most of the big Dreamcast games either
(Sonic Adventure, Soul Calibur, Shenmue, etc). I am well aware that
PS2 is more powerful than Dreamcast. I don't care though. the only
system that managed to impress me this gen was the Gamecube because i
was expecting so little from Nintendo.

the new generation is coming, it starts with Xbox 360. it's going to
own because it has the highest potential of any of the new systems as
far as graphics. not because of its spec sheet, but because of the
people that had a hand in its design. the best graphics engineers on
the planet IMO.
 
T

Tom

You must be one of those people that still thinks Dreamcast is more
powerful than the PS2. I'd love to see Dreamcast pull of SOul Calibur 3 or
God of War. Hell, I'd pay $100 to see it pull of Metal Gear Solid 2, a
game with a particle system so advanced even Xbox couldn't run the game
correctly.

I can't believe someone is still talking about the Dreamcast! Awesome.
Brings back fond memories for me.

That being said, it's games look outdated today (much like the PS2's limited
graphics, come to think of it)

Tom
 
A

Andrew Ryan Chang

Velocity Girl said:
Face the facts, Xbox got matched by 1999 console technology and is
actually getting beat in a few areas. Namely, particle fillrate (Zoe2,
Burnout series)

"particle fillrate" is a ridiculous term. Learn the real terms if
you don't want to sound like you're in way over your head.


followups to rgv.sony
 
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V

Velocity Girl

Tom said:
I can't believe someone is still talking about the Dreamcast! Awesome.
Brings back fond memories for me.

That being said, it's games look outdated today (much like the PS2's limited
graphics, come to think of it)

You think God of War looks outdated?
Compared to Half Life 2 on PC I guess but compared to other Xbox games no.
 
M

mike

haha, good one.

Face the facts, Xbox got matched by 1999 console technology and is
actually getting beat in a few areas. Namely, particle fillrate (Zoe2,
Burnout series)

So, sure the 10MB EDRAM may help Xbox360 win in particle fillrate but it
looses in everything else.

You must be one of those people that still thinks Dreamcast is more
powerful than the PS2. I'd love to see Dreamcast pull of SOul Calibur 3 or
God of War. Hell, I'd pay $100 to see it pull of Metal Gear Solid 2, a
game with a particle system so advanced even Xbox couldn't run the game
correctly.

Metal Gear solid 2 was simply a lazy port. Everyone knows this, and you are
a fool to suggest the Xbox was matched by 1999 console technology(PS2).
You're obviously not a hardcore gamer or else you would know this too. *You
must be one of those people that still thinks PS2 is more powerful than the
Xbox.*

God of War is a great looking game considering the hardware that runs it,
and fun, but it's full of blurry, low resolution textures just like any and
all of the best PS2 games.

The Xbox360 wins in more ways than you care to learn about. It's GPU is
capable of producing HDR visuals with FSAA at the same time, in realtime.
Since you probably don't know what HDR stands for, do a google. Nvidia
themselves have already stated that the RSX is NOT capable of producing HDR
rendering and FSAA at the same time. You have to either take one or the
other, unless they want to do hardware HDR and AA in software(which will of
course negate higher performance). Kiss your 1080p and 60fps goodbye.

Not to mention, the PS3 has been dropping features like crazy lately(ports,
HDD, cpu to 3.2 ghz from 4.6).. something I had expected from the very
beginning. This trend will likely continue all the way into cutting SPE's
down to 4, and who knows what else.

Hell, even the Xbox version of Half Life 2 uses HDR rendering. I'd like to
see the PS2 run it at even 2 fps.

By the way, the Dreamcast was and still is a much better system than the
PS2. In fact, i was so underwhelmed with the performance differences when
the PS2 was released, i completely passed it up in favor of waiting for the
Xbox, which was certainly no mistake in my investment, and continues to only
get better. For those of you who thought the Xbox was maxed out within it's
first year, just consider that the original PC version of Half Life 2
doesn't even incorporate HDR. The Xbox is still doing new things to this
day, and will still continue that in the coming last days of it's life.
 
P

papa guiseppi

So, sure the 10MB EDRAM may help Xbox360 win in particle fillrate but it
looses in everything else.

the xbox will only be loose after you ram it in the anus for 12 hours
straight... back to school for you

and whatever particle fillrate is i'll never know... particles? wasn't
that like one of the features of quake?

the future is pixel shaders, the ps2 has none, so go away
 
T

Tom

Velocity Girl said:
You think God of War looks outdated?
Compared to Half Life 2 on PC I guess but compared to other Xbox games no.

I mostly play PC games these days and yes, God of War looks *very* outdated.
They've done an excellent job getting the most out of the PS2 hardware
though.

I also don't see why some people are so concerned which of the new consoles
has the best hardware. It's the games that matter - God of War is a good
game regardless of its graphics. The PC will have better graphics then
both the new XBOX and PS3 within a few months of when they come out (no
matter what buzzwords or stats xbox/ps3 fans throw around). However, that's
not what makes consoles great - it's their games!

I'm more interested to see if the new XBOX as many good titles as the new
PS3 likely will - if it doesn't it doesn't matter what technology is in it.

Tom
 
A

a_noether_theorem

This is an amusing observation, but box X360 and PS3 owe more of their
heritage to the Renderman shader model of CG than to any tech Real3D
were dreaming up a generation of consoles ago.

Whatever hardware Real3D was working on 5-7 years ago is totally
irrelevant because the number of transistors available has changed by
two orders of magnitude, and despite the continued use of triangles and
texture maps as the basic building blocks of rasterization, the use of
programmable shaders is really a completely new paradigm from what,
say, Model 3 hardware was doing.

If anything, you can see it as proof that all the hardware development
houses read the same technical papers on computer graphics and go to
the same conferences.
 
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T

tk

Velocity Girl said:
You think God of War looks outdated?
Compared to Half Life 2 on PC I guess but compared to other Xbox games no.
Consoles wont compete with pcs until they have HD outputs on them period, or
do they already?
Even if the 3d engine is better on a particular console it's hard to compare
400-600 lines of resolution
interlaced to 1280X1024 Progressive.
 
V

Velocity Girl

papa said:
the xbox will only be loose after you ram it in the anus for 12 hours
straight... back to school for you

and whatever particle fillrate is i'll never know... particles? wasn't
that like one of the features of quake?

the future is pixel shaders, the ps2 has none, so go away

Find a game on Xbox that pushes as many particle effects as ZOE2.
You can't. You lost. Go Home.
 
G

Guest

Velocity Girl said:
Find a game on Xbox that pushes as many particle effects as ZOE2.
You can't. You lost. Go Home.

It's true. no Xbox game can match ZOE2.

so in this case, PS2 specs are backed up by a game. the PS2 exells in
particle effects (150 million / sec)
 
V

Velocity Girl

Highlander said:
It's true. no Xbox game can match ZOE2.

so in this case, PS2 specs are backed up by a game. the PS2 exells in
particle effects (150 million / sec)


Nyahaha bleboobleep!

hah
 
M

mike

Find a game on Xbox that pushes as many particle effects as ZOE2.
You can't. You lost. Go Home.

It doesn't really matter when the game isn't all that impressive overall. I
guess for what it lacks in everything else, i'd hope the PS2 had atleast
something minor like this up its sleeve, but who really cares? Particles
aren't going to save it from it's lack of everything else, including it's
extremely generic looking immitation effects for the lack of shaders. Seems
as though PS2 visuals are synonymous with keywords here(lack, lacking). Why
do people try and hold onto something that wasn't there in the first place?
 
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V

Velocity Girl

The PC will have better graphics then
both the new XBOX and PS3 within a few months of when they come out

HAhaha... HOly Shit you are stupid!!!

You actually think they will have PC's with 7 processors running at
3.2Ghz with stupid insane bandwidth?

OMGURDumb
 
V

Velocity Girl

Tom said:
I mostly play PC games these days and yes, God of War looks *very* outdated.
They've done an excellent job getting the most out of the PS2 hardware
though.

I think Halo and Halo 2 look very outdated compared to God of War on
PS2. The poly counts in Halo are probably 5 million and the polys in GOW
are probably around 20.

Here is a tip.
eat my turds.
 
J

J. Clarke

Velocity said:
HAhaha... HOly Shit you are stupid!!!

You actually think they will have PC's with 7 processors running at
3.2Ghz with stupid insane bandwidth?

What leads you to believe that either the Xbox or the PS3 is going to have
7 processors? 7 DSPs driven by one CPU perhaps.

As for others being stupid, pot, kettle.
 
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T

Tom

Velocity Girl said:
HAhaha... HOly Shit you are stupid!!!

You actually think they will have PC's with 7 processors running at 3.2Ghz
with stupid insane bandwidth?

OMGURDumb

I see no point in arguing with someone who has the maturity of a 3 year old
and even less computer knowledge.

Tom
 
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