Advice Required - Vb or Not VB (or even .NET)

[Kahuna]

Hi Folks

I've been developing in MSA97 since it first hit the streets and its been
fantastic for what we needed. We have a number of Apps out there all in
runtime and all doing sterling work!

Time to move on though and we have been pulled from pillar to post (old
English expression) looking at Java, .NET and a host of RAD's that build in
those languages (Java, VB, C# etc). And just when I though we'd settled on a
RAD with Java the licensing and deployment rules and costs are making the
whole thing seem untenable!

I'm back to square 1 and though this is a .NET group I'd value input from
others who have been through this research before.

It's Db development and I'd really like my code to be database agnostic -
that is if one Client needs it to run on an Oracle Db and another on MSSQL
then it needs to do that with minimal code changes.

It needs to be secure and handle users and groups effectively with logging.

It needs to be easy to deploy and update as there will be regular updates
developed.

Obviously fast development is desired - after MSAccess everything else seems
slow in the development cycle!

Feedback, advice and comments / recommendations will all be gratefully
accepted.

 

[Michael C]

I'm back to square 1 and though this is a .NET group I'd value input from
others who have been through this research before.

Take the advice you get carefully. If you ask in a dot net group then you'll
get recommended dot net a lot, if you ask in a delphi group then you'll get
recommended delphi a lot.

It's Db development and I'd really like my code to be database agnostic -
that is if one Client needs it to run on an Oracle Db and another on MSSQL
then it needs to do that with minimal code changes.

That is no issue and has more to do with your programming style then the
language you use.

It needs to be secure and handle users and groups effectively with
logging.

I don't think that is a problem.

It needs to be easy to deploy and update as there will be regular updates
developed.

There are plenty of options for this, once dot net is installed it's just a
matter of copying your files over. Certainly it's easier to maintain than an
Access app.

Obviously fast development is desired - after MSAccess everything else
seems slow in the development cycle!

This could be an issue.Certainly developing in dot net is going to be more
labour intensive, quite possibly a significant amount more intensive.

Michael

 

[Kahuna]

Take the advice you get carefully. If you ask in a dot net group then
you'll get recommended dot net a lot, if you ask in a delphi group then
you'll get recommended delphi a lot.

Yes - I realise that Michael, but I'm sure others have been through this
wrangle in the past too - and their experience would be valuable to me I
think! i.e. Why end up with dot net?

That is no issue and has more to do with your programming style then the
language you use.

Some RAD's make it a lot easier than others to do that.

I don't think that is a problem.

e.g. I realise I can roll-my-own Login and verification system but dont have
a good handle on how or where to secure login data in VS (hold in embedded
Db, Encrypted XML File etc?)

There are plenty of options for this, once dot net is installed it's just
a matter of copying your files over. Certainly it's easier to maintain
than an Access app.

After the framework is installed is it just XCOPY for deployment? No
challenges with DDL conflicts etc?

This could be an issue.Certainly developing in dot net is going to be more
labour intensive, quite possibly a significant amount more intensive.

Having looked (glimpsed realy) at tools such as RadVolution for RAD form
development and data linking - it seems like there may be som add-ons that
can make development faster and more consistant from a GUI standpoint. Much
of our functionality in MSA is hand developed too - where all reports are
built on the fly for example and much of the data manipulation is through
code rather than QBF etc.

I guess one of the big challenges is the Crystal Reports use too. My past
experience with this product has NOT be good - mainly the learning curve
necessary to get anything approaching useable out of it!

Thanks for the feedback Michael

 

[Cor Ligthert[MVP]]

Kayma

How long is the live cycle of your applications? Less then one year? Then
stay with ms Access. Has it to be robust for multi user purpose as well,
then your first logical step will be VB.Net

Just my idea.

Cor

 

[Kahuna]

Kayma

How long is the live cycle of your applications? Less then one year? Then
stay with ms Access. Has it to be robust for multi user purpose as well,
then your first logical step will be VB.Net

Just my idea.

Cor

Cor - thanks for that feedback.

The app has a 5 + year life cycle and its currently multi-user (between 3
and 25 users per deployment).

We're still in the A97 stone age I'm afraid - and have been reluctant to
upgrade to later versions because it seems sensible to switch to a more
'Developer' oriented environment (rather then the Access Desktop
environment) if we're going to need to make a change - upgrade - anyway!

 

[Michael C]

e.g. I realise I can roll-my-own Login and verification system but dont
have a good handle on how or where to secure login data in VS (hold in
embedded Db, Encrypted XML File etc?)

If you're app has a database then store it encrypted in the database. They
are logging into the database really. I don't really see any other option
because anything else is machine specific so could be got around by going to
another machine.

After the framework is installed is it just XCOPY for deployment?

Pretty much you can just copy files over to the users machine although you
might need to install components that your app requires.

No challenges with DDL conflicts etc?

Dll conflicts? That isn't impossible although fairly easy to avoid in
dotnet.

I guess one of the big challenges is the Crystal Reports use too. My past
experience with this product has NOT be good - mainly the learning curve
necessary to get anything approaching useable out of it!

Have a look at activereports, it's fairly similar to access reports.

Michael

 

[Michael C]

Yes - I realise that Michael, but I'm sure others have been through this
wrangle in the past too - and their experience would be valuable to me I
think! i.e. Why end up with dot net?

BTW, go with C# if you are moving to dotnet. You'll get over the syntax
changes in about a day.

Michael

 

[Michael D. Ober]

BTW, go with C# if you are moving to dotnet. You'll get over the syntax
changes in about a day.

Michael

Stick with VB unless you already have a C/C++ background. The syntax is a
lot closer to what you're used to. Also, the C# syntax "hides" a lot of the
object oriented features while VB explicitly declares them, which for
someone new to true OO development, can be very important as well as useful
for code maintenance. You will eventually need to learn both languages.
The other major item is forget about the VB project converter. You'll be
better off with simple copy/paste for the bulk of your code.

That said, you will end up redesigning almost the entire app during the
port. This is simply because MS Access has a far richer form model than
dotNET or the Windows API. There are GUI events and features in Access 97
that simply don't exist in dotNET. The Access 97 developers didn't use the
underlying Windows API - instead, they implemented their own, far richer,
API for forms. In addition, dotNET uses the completely new (relative to
Access97) ADO.NET for database access, which is completely different from
the Jet engine interface built into Access.

Good Luck,
Mike Ober.

 

[Michael D. Ober]

BTW, go with C# if you are moving to dotnet. You'll get over the syntax
changes in about a day.

Michael

One other thing, either set your VB defaults to Option Strict On/Option
Explicit On/Option Text On or put these three lines at the top of every
source file. The Option Text On should actually match your Option Database
statement in Access if you have one.

Mike Ober.

 

[mcnews]

Hi Folks

I've been developing in MSA97 since it first hit the streets and its been
fantastic for what we needed. We have a number of Apps out there all in
runtime and all doing sterling work!

Time to move on though and we have been pulled from pillar to post (old
English expression) looking at Java, .NET and a host of RAD's that build in
those languages (Java, VB, C# etc). And just when I though we'd settled on a
RAD with Java the licensing and deployment rules and costs are making the
whole thing seem untenable!

I'm back to square 1 and though this is a .NET group I'd value input from
others who have been through this research before.

It's Db development and I'd really like my code to be database agnostic -
that is if one Client needs it to run on an Oracle Db and another on MSSQL
then it needs to do that with minimal code changes.

It needs to be secure and handle users and groups effectively with logging.

It needs to be easy to deploy and update as there will be regular updates
developed.

Obviously fast development is desired - after MSAccess everything else seems
slow in the development cycle!

Feedback, advice and comments / recommendations will all be gratefully
accepted.

you could go to Access 200? and sql server pretty easily and improve
efficiency.
i still do Access, VB, VB.NET, C#, etc.
if you're gonna redo the whole thing then get yourself up-to-date.

 

[Michael C]

Stick with VB unless you already have a C/C++ background. The syntax is a
lot closer to what you're used to. Also, the C# syntax "hides" a lot of
the object oriented features while VB explicitly declares them, which for
someone new to true OO development, can be very important as well as
useful for code maintenance. You will eventually need to learn both
languages. The other major item is forget about the VB project converter.
You'll be better off with simple copy/paste for the bulk of your code.

It's much better to go with C#. The syntax difference is pretty minor and
can gotten past in literally 1 day. C# is more aimed at the professional
programmer and it sounds like Kahuna is a full time programmer.

 

[Skitsanos]

dude, stay with VB, believe me it worth it, even on money side. i do
all sorts possible BASICs since 1992, and nothing gonna change me, i
can do C#, actionScript, Java, but hey, VB is something remains...

 

[Michael C]

dude, stay with VB, believe me it worth it, even on money side. i do
all sorts possible BASICs since 1992, and nothing gonna change me, i
can do C#, actionScript, Java, but hey, VB is something remains...

C has been around longer and pays more.

 

[Michael C]

dude, stay with VB, believe me it worth it, even on money side. i do
all sorts possible BASICs since 1992, and nothing gonna change me, i
can do C#, actionScript, Java, but hey, VB is something remains...

Hey Kahuna, remember what I said in my first reply in this thread? Ask in a
VB group and you'll get recommended VB. Well that is certainly turning out
to be true. If you go over to the C# group you'll see there are 3 times as
many posts and most samples on the internet for dot net are in C# so I think
the majority of developers would recommend c#.

 

[Skitsanos]

C has been around longer and pays more.

Right, longer, indeed, but about pays more, i'm really not sure. The
way i see it now is exactly in a way why PHP guy is cheaper that,
let's say ASP.NET or AS3 guy, - they are just all over, very easy too
find...

 

[Guest]

It's much better to go with C#. The syntax difference is pretty minor
and can gotten past in literally 1 day. C# is more aimed at the
professional programmer and it sounds like Kahuna is a full time
programmer.

Considering both VB and C# support almost the same feature set, it's really
a moot point.

 

[Guest]

I guess one of the big challenges is the Crystal Reports use too. My
past experience with this product has NOT be good - mainly the
learning curve necessary to get anything approaching useable out of
it!

Crystal is bad - but not horrible (well...)


But thankfully there are other reporting solutions: SQL Reporting Services,
ActiveReports, etc.

--

 

[Michael C]

Right, longer, indeed, but about pays more, i'm really not sure. The
way i see it now is exactly in a way why PHP guy is cheaper that,
let's say ASP.NET or AS3 guy, - they are just all over, very easy too
find...

While I disagree, there isn't much point arguing how much C++ programmers
get because it's going to make little difference with C#/VBnet. In a
professional role there isn't really any reason to use VB over C# and there
are several reasons for that.
- C# is more aimed at the profession
- C# allows pointers which can come in handy
- C syntax requires less typing

Michael

 

[Michael C]

Considering both VB and C# support almost the same feature set, it's
really
a moot point.

Almost being the operative word

 

[Guest]

Almost being the operative word

Pointers is the only major difference I see between the two languages ...
and there are very limited situations where you'll want to use pointers in
a managed langauge.