advanced(?) .css

C

chris leeds

I'm posting this here in hopes that someone will be familiar with .css and
it's use on tables. since I'm working in FrontPage I'm a little reticent to
post on the .css groups etc.

Here is my problem:
http://nedp.net/skin looks Good in ie6 but the buttons (with white/ yellow
border) on the top bar look "funny" in mozilla firebird and opera 6. the
whole thing gets whacked out in nn4.x.

I'm using the table cells and IDing, or classing them to put the style where
I want. It seems that the top bar with the buttons in question are taking
on some of the properties of the list item links on the left.

I'm not sure if it's because I'm using tables or if I've done something
wrong on the style sheet or if I just don't understand a concept.

there is a link to the style sheet and a link to the page source on the
above link.

TIA to anyone who can/ will help, and keep me from the fusillade that's sure
to come if I were to post to a css group since I'm using both FrontPage and
tables!

cl
 
S

Steve Easton

Chris,
I read somewhere ( can't remember where )
that NS has a problem with the border definitions
example: border-bottom, border-top
and needs them defined in a different fashion,
or needs the border size in px defined first,
and then the top - bottom styles.
If I can find the link I'll post it.

imho
As for tables vs CSS vs tables,
and FrontPage vs dreamthiever etc.
Most of the folks who post rants about FP
and tables vs CSS have "tunnel vision"
/imho

Steve
 
S

Steve Easton

Chris,
Come to think of it, I think the problem
is that NS doesn't recognize a style "class"
at the <tr> level, but only at the <table> level.
 
C

chris leeds

well,
I hope I can work it out. I like the template and look.
I'm not so "stuck" on nn4 picking up the style sheet. the page holds
together ok without a style sheet since I'm using a table.

I would, however, like to get it to work ok on ie, mozilla, and opera
(latest versions).
 
S

Steve Easton

Here it is:

border-bottom doesn't appear to work, use border-bottom-width
border-top doesn't appear to work, use border-top-width
border-left doesn't appear to work, use border-left-width
border-right doesn't appear to work, use border-right-width

Whole list of them here:
http://css.nu/pointers/bugs-nn.html#NN4
 
J

JDR

Steve,

I'm with you all the way on the DW "Tunnel Vision".

I had a client elect to have a graphic designer, redesign
several product pages and order form. He gave them a
lecture on the "Evils" of FP and the professionals only
use DW.

To make a long story short, he redesigned using CSS / DW
with font sizes at 8pt. I received a phone call last
week from the company, they advised me sales had dropped
dramatically and asked me to fix it.

I don't look at it as a DW vs. FP issue, I see it as an
Ego issue with a graphics designer who cared more
about "his" pages.

I use CSS, but wisely!
JDR
****************************
 
J

Jimmy

I don't look at it as a DW vs. FP issue, I see it as an
Ego issue with a graphics designer who cared more
about "his" pages.

In the hands of a skilled artisan, any product can produce quality
web pages. I've seen lots of crap from both products.
It's like doing interior woodwork at your house. A "cabinet
maker" can create quality with a handsaw, an old miter box, and a
hammer. A "carpenter" produces crap even with a power mitre saw and
a nailer. FP is just a tool, as is DW.

It's true that many of the pages around the world produced by FP have
issues. That's because newbies with no training use it and don't
understand what they are building. It's not the fault of the product,
it's the fault of the producer. MS doesn't help by making it way to
easy to produce proprietary nonsense and "too early for it" features.
DW is no better, it's just more complicated and generally attracts
a better crowd of hacks.

Still, all in all, hacks produce hacked output. Professionals produce
professional output. "I think I'm a pro" folks blame it on the
product (e.g FrontPage).
 
C

chris leeds

thanks for the link Steve,
I'm willing to let the nn4 "slide" and just hide the sheet for it. the
thing that's really bugging me is the buttons on the top black bar. they
don't work consistently in mozilla and opera. oddly they fail similarly in
both of those browsers. it's almost like they're getting part of their
appearance from the menus on the left!
 
S

Steve Easton

Exactly.
Ego is the key word here.
They are more concerned with
how many bells and whistles they
can insert in a webpage so they can say
"see what I made" without ever giving thought
to viewers of the site, when they should be doing
the opposite and designing for "ease of use" /
"ease of viewing"
I kind of class them with folks who use AOL.
If they can turn on the computer and place a disk
in the CD drive they are "on the web" but have
absolutely no clue as to how or why.

end of rant.
:)
 
E

E. T. Culling

"Dreamthiever" - How come FP 2003 'borrowed' so much from DW .v4 ... now
several versions old??
Eleanor
 
S

Steve Easton

Chris,
Something else you might try is moving the BODY portion
of your CSS to the top of the page.
CSS elements / attributes are "inherited" starting at the top
and working down ( aka "cascading style sheets" )
I always think of it as "management by exception."
That is, the stuff at the top manages the page "except"
when I define something else using a .class or #id
 
C

chris leeds

I'll do just that. I didn't think the order the stuff appeared on the .css
mattered. it seems like the "style sweeper" in topstyle alphabetizes it but
I could be wrong. I'll definitely look into the order things appear on the
style sheet.
Thanks,
chris
 
F

FIDO

The order of display is why they matter in CSS

This is more prominent in flow type design with CSS
just my 2 Cents
 
J

Jimmy

"Dreamthiever" - How come FP 2003 'borrowed' so much from DW .v4 ... now
several versions old??
Eleanor

Perhaps because MS needs to do something to the product to make it
different so that they can sell you an upgrade. They've been changing
FP since 95... and I haven't seen any serious "improvements" since
about '97. Yeah, they add in the CSS stuff, they keep changing the
main interface for some unknown reasons, and they add moronic
additions like the ability to "draw" on a web page and have FP
generate 10 lbs of VML as part of MS's plan to take over you desktop
and the world, but all in all, they can't find much to add to the
product. So, they just keep changing it, hoping people will buy
yet another unnecessary upgrade.
 
J

Jimmy

have to disagree. fp 2002 is much different and better than fp 98.

How so ?

Is there anything you can do easier in 2002 that you _should do_ aside
from CSS ?

I will admit to some minor improvements here and there - like easier
image finding/insertion - but then they break something to compensate
like having the Import tool forget the last directory it worked in...
and they add unnecessary nonsense like (dear God) Java hover buttons
and MS's horrid XML/VML generation.

They seem to make the front end worse with every generation. 90% of
the users still don't know how to access the PWS (or even that it
exists) and most of them need it.

MHO... I actually like the product, I just don't see much in the
way of "improvements" in each release.
 
T

Thomas A. Rowe

What PWS?

FP hasn't shipped with PWS since FP98 and Windows OS drop it as of Window
ME. If you need to use a local web server, then you have to have Windows
2000 or XP Pro, and as long as the FP 2000/2002 extensions are installed and
configured for the default web, then FP will have no problem accessing it
via http://localhost.

--

==============================================
Thomas A. Rowe (Microsoft MVP - FrontPage)
WEBMASTER Resources(tm)

FrontPage Resources, Forums, WebCircle,
MS KB Quick Links, etc.
==============================================
 
S

Stefan B Rusynko

An example of where order of the css makes a difference (post from Jon Spivey) on link pseudo code sequence

"The order should be link - visited - hover - active. Reason when you click a
link (ie make it active) 2 rules could apply to it hover and active, so the
style defined last wins out, in your order hover would win because its
defined last so the active style would never show."
--
Jon Microsoft MVP - FP

--




| could you explain in a little more detail (like the other 98 cents worth?)
| TIA
|
| | > The order of display is why they matter in CSS
| >
| > This is more prominent in flow type design with CSS
| > just my 2 Cents
| >
| >
| >
| > | > > I'll do just that. I didn't think the order the stuff appeared on the
| > .css
| > > mattered. it seems like the "style sweeper" in topstyle alphabetizes it
| > but
| > > I could be wrong. I'll definitely look into the order things appear on
| > the
| > > style sheet.
| > > Thanks,
| > > chris
| > >
| > > | > > > Chris,
| > > > Something else you might try is moving the BODY portion
| > > > of your CSS to the top of the page.
| > > > CSS elements / attributes are "inherited" starting at the top
| > > > and working down ( aka "cascading style sheets" )
| > > > I always think of it as "management by exception."
| > > > That is, the stuff at the top manages the page "except"
| > > > when I define something else using a .class or #id
| > > >
| > > >
| > > > --
| > > > using 2k PRO but....95isalive
| > > > This site is best viewed............
| > > > .......................with a computer
| > > >
| > > > | > > > > thanks for the link Steve,
| > > > > I'm willing to let the nn4 "slide" and just hide the sheet for it.
| > the
| > > > > thing that's really bugging me is the buttons on the top black bar.
| > > they
| > > > > don't work consistently in mozilla and opera. oddly they fail
| > similarly
| > > > in
| > > > > both of those browsers. it's almost like they're getting part of
| > their
| > > > > appearance from the menus on the left!
| > > > >
| > > > > | > > > > > Here it is:
| > > > > >
| > > > > > border-bottom doesn't appear to work, use border-bottom-width
| > > > > > border-top doesn't appear to work, use border-top-width
| > > > > > border-left doesn't appear to work, use border-left-width
| > > > > > border-right doesn't appear to work, use border-right-width
| > > > > >
| > > > > > Whole list of them here:
| > > > > > http://css.nu/pointers/bugs-nn.html#NN4
| > > > > > --
| > > > > > using 2k PRO but....95isalive
| > > > > > This site is best viewed............
| > > > > > .......................with a computer
| > > > > >
| > > > > > | > > > > > > well,
| > > > > > > I hope I can work it out. I like the template and look.
| > > > > > > I'm not so "stuck" on nn4 picking up the style sheet. the page
| > > holds
| > > > > > > together ok without a style sheet since I'm using a table.
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > I would, however, like to get it to work ok on ie, mozilla, and
| > > opera
| > > > > > > (latest versions).
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > > | > > > > > > > Chris,
| > > > > > > > Come to think of it, I think the problem
| > > > > > > > is that NS doesn't recognize a style "class"
| > > > > > > > at the <tr> level, but only at the <table> level.
| > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > --
| > > > > > > > using 2k PRO but....95isalive
| > > > > > > > This site is best viewed............
| > > > > > > > .......................with a computer
| > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > | > > > > > > > > I'm posting this here in hopes that someone will be familiar
| > > with
| > > > > .css
| > > > > > > and
| > > > > > > > > it's use on tables. since I'm working in FrontPage I'm a
| > little
| > > > > > > reticent
| > > > > > > > to
| > > > > > > > > post on the .css groups etc.
| > > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > > Here is my problem:
| > > > > > > > > http://nedp.net/skin looks Good in ie6 but the buttons (with
| > > > white/
| > > > > > > yellow
| > > > > > > > > border) on the top bar look "funny" in mozilla firebird and
| > > opera
| > > > 6.
| > > > > > > the
| > > > > > > > > whole thing gets whacked out in nn4.x.
| > > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > > I'm using the table cells and IDing, or classing them to put
| > the
| > > > > style
| > > > > > > > where
| > > > > > > > > I want. It seems that the top bar with the buttons in
| > question
| > > > are
| > > > > > > taking
| > > > > > > > > on some of the properties of the list item links on the
| left.
| > > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > > I'm not sure if it's because I'm using tables or if I've
| done
| > > > > > something
| > > > > > > > > wrong on the style sheet or if I just don't understand a
| > > concept.
| > > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > > there is a link to the style sheet and a link to the page
| > source
| > > > on
| > > > > > the
| > > > > > > > > above link.
| > > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > > TIA to anyone who can/ will help, and keep me from the
| > fusillade
| > > > > > that's
| > > > > > > > sure
| > > > > > > > > to come if I were to post to a css group since I'm using
| both
| > > > > > FrontPage
| > > > > > > > and
| > > > > > > > > tables!
| > > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > > cl
| > > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > >
| > > > > > > >
| > > > > > >
| > > > > > >
| > > > > >
| > > > > >
| > > > >
| > > > >
| > > >
| > > >
| > >
| > >
| >
| >
|
|
 

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