Adding ram to the 2 sticks I have, but keeping (some/any) advantages

[bent]

with same or new mobo.

Minutes ago I opened this group for the first time. I looked through a bit,
but here goes again probably, and things can be different.

My question is about maintaining all of the advantages inherent in my
hardware, and as I'm not sure what they are, I have to ask. When I bought
my sytem all the reviews I read told that only 2 sticks could be used. I am
not sure why? I never got the 40% OC I wanted obtained in the reviews,
just a 20% OC, b/c I bought a 2.6C, not a 2.4C as used in all the reviews
with this same mobo and ram combination. I'm thinking of adding more ram,
but I'd like to keep my 20% OC, if I could, or at least stay at PC3200, but
if it comes down to it to play the newest games I have anything goes. Can
I get other ram in this mobo, or do any newer mobos, say w/ PCI-E, use this
type of ram. And most importantly, and to the point, can I use 4 or more
sticks, preferably with the ram I have have, in it, and KEEp past
performance? My ram has the PCXXXX (eg. if pc4200) capability of newer
DDR2, and better timings, but is there something else missing?

My ram:
http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/memory/ocz_el_ddr_pc_4200_dual_channel-eol

My mobo:
well of course, its never been heard of at asus, or anywhere now. Tell me
if you need me to find it.

My sig
Asus P4C800E-D [email protected] <oops> OCZ EL4200 512MB@DDR480 2.5-3-4-6 Zalman
CNPS-7000Cu, MCH, & Vantec Stealth Vantec Nexus NXP-305-BK fan & light
ctrlr. inverted blowhole panel Enermax EGP465P-VE S^2 FC^2 whisper LG
GSA-H10N
2x 36GB Raptors Viewsonic P95f+B MSI FX5900XT-VTD128 @465/825 SBLive5.1
Logitec / IBM USR 2976 Motorola Surfboard

 

[Paul]

with same or new mobo.

Minutes ago I opened this group for the first time. I looked through a bit,
but here goes again probably, and things can be different.

My question is about maintaining all of the advantages inherent in my
hardware, and as I'm not sure what they are, I have to ask. When I bought
my sytem all the reviews I read told that only 2 sticks could be used. I am
not sure why? I never got the 40% OC I wanted obtained in the reviews,
just a 20% OC, b/c I bought a 2.6C, not a 2.4C as used in all the reviews
with this same mobo and ram combination. I'm thinking of adding more ram,
but I'd like to keep my 20% OC, if I could, or at least stay at PC3200, but
if it comes down to it to play the newest games I have anything goes. Can
I get other ram in this mobo, or do any newer mobos, say w/ PCI-E, use this
type of ram. And most importantly, and to the point, can I use 4 or more
sticks, preferably with the ram I have have, in it, and KEEp past
performance? My ram has the PCXXXX (eg. if pc4200) capability of newer
DDR2, and better timings, but is there something else missing?

My ram:
http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/memory/ocz_el_ddr_pc_4200_dual_channel-eol

My mobo:
well of course, its never been heard of at asus, or anywhere now. Tell me
if you need me to find it.

My sig
Asus P4C800E-D [email protected] <oops> OCZ EL4200 512MB@DDR480 2.5-3-4-6 Zalman
CNPS-7000Cu, MCH, & Vantec Stealth Vantec Nexus NXP-305-BK fan & light
ctrlr. inverted blowhole panel Enermax EGP465P-VE S^2 FC^2 whisper LG
GSA-H10N
2x 36GB Raptors Viewsonic P95f+B MSI FX5900XT-VTD128 @465/825 SBLive5.1
Logitec / IBM USR 2976 Motorola Surfboard

What doesn't your computer do well ?
What problem are you trying to fix ?
What budget do you have to improve your computer ?

A computer with S478, DDR RAM, AGP video card slot, is at the end of its
days. You can make minor upgrades, but they would be delaying the inevitable.
It may be more cost effective, to put the money in the bank, until you have
enough money to do it right.

If, on the other hand, you have exactly $200 to spend, and never plan on
changing the motherboard, then I'd have a look here. There are some Northwood
processors (pulled from old computers) at the top of the page.

http://www.pricewatch.com/cpu/263297-15.htm

An overclocked Prescott has been known to reach 4GHz, but your computer
would end up running hot if you did that. The Northwood is a better
choice.

If you had another $220 left, after upgrading the processor, then get one
of these. So for $420, you can "perk up" your machine. But the thrill will
soon wear off, and you'll be $420 poorer (like when Vista and DX-10 video
comes along, and you're forced into PCI Express video cards).

POWERCOLOR X1950PRO256AGP Radeon X1950PRO 256MB 256-bit GDDR3 AGP 4X/8X
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16814131035

I'm not sure that doubling your RAM would make that much difference.
A processor upgrade will do more for you, than some more RAM.

If you feel the need for more than that, you could well be looking
at a $1200 upgrade.

As for P4C800-E, I didn't get a very big overclock on mine either (P4 2.8
at 3.2GHz, 2x512MB at DDR460). And I'm not convinced that Vdroop modding
it would make any difference. And Vcore didn't help me at all, so it is
probably more an issue with the motherboard than anything else. I don't
think the processor is at fault, and it might have overclocked further
in a different motherboard.

Paul

 

[bent]

This is cut in full from another ng, where I was told I have a deficit in
i) mobo
ii)cpu
iii)ram
iv)vid card

To sum it up, its just about the need for more ram in the future or present
if I get new games. I am aware I cannot do anything about the mobo/cpu/vid
card as far as carry-over or upgrade to it, but I want to know (now,
specifically) if I can:

a) add 2 more sticks of ram to the mobo I now have
b) bring the ram I have now into a newer mobo

-----------------------------:

I gotta Q or 2 and u may be able to answer it. This ram I assume is pretty
goodly:
http://www.pcvonline.com/productDetails.aspx?id=4731
[MAYBE BEST NEW RAM NOW AVAILABLE]
It does 1150.
1150/2=575.
575/2=287.5
But the timings look poorly, 5-5-5-18

The ram I bought a couple years ago is (guaranteed) rated at DDR533.
533x2=1066
533/2=266.5
http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/memory/ocz_el_ddr_pc_4200_dual_channel-eol
[MY RAM NOW]

It can run DDR400at 2- timings, and is CL 2.5-4-4-7 operation at 2.8 volts,
at 266/533/1066.

Yet it still overclocks to the same 287.5/575/1150 as the first ram listed
at the top. There are several reviews if you'd like. It was about $300 for
512MB (2x256). The timings I run now are, but I'm at. The timings at rated
PC4200 are, and according to the reviews, the timings at 287.5/575/1150,
maxed out / stable, are "OCZ EL4200 is completely stable at 280FSB or
560MHz, and I was able to run the memory at CAS-2.5 under PAT's most
aggressive settings (Turbo) on the P4C800E-Deluxe at 280FSB under all
circumstances. This is apparent in the benchmarks."
- from the conclusion (last page) at madshrimps review at the bottom of the
page of the review links at the ocz page above.


Now I know I'd need a cpu capable of running 1150. Are there any? Is there
anything close.ie pushing up the standard to be able to do that?

Next, if my ram is running at better timings, at equal to the best
287.5/575/1150 numbers, are there other improvements I need to know about
with DDR2? Is there something I am missing? Like is DDR2 doing twice the
"work", which explains forgiving the timings? Is it like PC4200 really is
PC8400, and for what?

I was aware, simply by reading the reviews, all of the reviews testing this
(my) ram used the same mobo and cpu (ASUS P4C800E-D & 2.4C) - I was an idiot
and bought a 2.6C cpu, cause I wasn't aware of the connection, and thought
the 2.4C was just the best at the time. I was aware that in order to run at
287.5/575/1150 I could only use 2 mem slots (of the four) for some reason.
IS this still true? IOW if I got 2 more sticks of this (my) ram, are there
any new motherboards that can max out with all four (or more) slots, so I
can add 512MB or wish 1GB more, or more?

 

[bent]

I was saying somethig along the lines of pushing up the std., but recently I
read something in here about dual cpus. I guess there is no comparison
between a single cpu mobo, and a dual. Does DDR2 specifically handle dual
cpus, whereas my DDR1, though everything else is equal or better, does not?

 

[bent]

So, again:

i) Is there any use for my DDR1 ram in future mobos?

ii) what happens to my system now, if I aquired 2 more sticks? either
matched and same, or matched and not same, or none of the above? Does size
matter if only matched (i.e 2x?MB, but not same as the 2x256MB I already
have; iow 4x of the same 256MB, each)

 

[Paul]

So, again:

i) Is there any use for my DDR1 ram in future mobos?

Yes, there can be, but not in a way that you will be happy with. There
are motherboards that take Core2 Duo (LGA775 socket) and use DDR RAM,
but those boards don't overclock. The problem is, when they design new
chipsets, they design them to use DDR2 and not DDR. The only chipsets
that use DDR, are the old ones. The old chipsets run at FSB800. The
old chipsets can be forced to FSB1066 (chipset overclocking by the
manufacturer). When you plug your new Core2 Duo FSB1066 processor
into such a board, it cannot go higher than FSB1066, because the
chipset is already overclocked. The processor has plenty of headroom
in that case, but the chipset doesn't.

So, yes, if you are on a budget, you can buy a motherboard that will
handle a new processor, but it won't overclock like a proper newer
chipset motherboard will. And a newer chipset uses DDR2.

And the issue has nothing to do with rate. Your PC4200 RAM has
a different interface and pinout, than the DDR2 RAM used now.

ii) what happens to my system now, if I aquired 2 more sticks? either
matched and same, or matched and not same, or none of the above? Does size
matter if only matched (i.e 2x?MB, but not same as the 2x256MB I already
have; iow 4x of the same 256MB, each)

You say you have a 2.6C at a 20% overclock (3.12GHz). If the memory bus
is run 1:1, the normal DDR400 rate becomes 400*1.2= DDR480. Your 2x256MB
could be single sided RAM. (Less likely that it is double sided.)

The max speed the RAM can run at, is affect by two things. The rating
of the RAM (PC4200) is only one factor. The unknown, is how much load
the motherboard chipset can drive. Two single sided sticks is the
easiest to drive, while four double sided sticks is the hardest to
drive. Now, in this article, they didn't seem to have trouble
reaching DDR500, but I have heard of people having trouble reaching
that high with four double sided sticks.

http://www.anandtech.com/memory/showdoc.aspx?i=1839&p=4

So, your options are:

1) Buy 2x256MB sticks to match the ones you've got. If they are single
sided sticks, there isn't much risk that they won't reach DDR480.
Considering the amount of RAM you are buying, these should not be
expensive. If a merchant is charging a lot for these, then try (2).

2) Retire the 2x256MB sticks. Buy 2x512MB set or 2x1GB set. From a bus
loading perspective, there shouldn't be a problem reaching DDR480
with two new sticks alone.

3) You can mix 2x256MB with 2x512MB or 2x1GB, but that would not
be my recommended configuration. You can certainly test it and see
whether it is stable at DDR480.

4) If you used 4x512MB double sided, not everyone will reach DDR500
with that much bus loading. Somewhere around DDR460 to DDR480
perhaps. Anandtech, in the above article, seems to have reached
DDR500, but not everyone manages to do that.

HTH,
Paul

 

[Paul]

I was saying somethig along the lines of pushing up the std., but recently I
read something in here about dual cpus. I guess there is no comparison
between a single cpu mobo, and a dual. Does DDR2 specifically handle dual
cpus, whereas my DDR1, though everything else is equal or better, does not?

Single or dual core CPUs are totally independent of other issues. You can
use a single core processor with DDR2, or a dual core processor with DDR.
The two subsystems don't "know" about one another.

DDR1 and DDR2 use a different pinout and number of pins. DDR2 has improvements
such as ODT (on die termination), which improves the electrical characteristics
during data transfers.

Paul

 

[Paul]

This is cut in full from another ng, where I was told I have a deficit in
i) mobo
ii)cpu
iii)ram
iv)vid card

To sum it up, its just about the need for more ram in the future or present
if I get new games. I am aware I cannot do anything about the mobo/cpu/vid
card as far as carry-over or upgrade to it, but I want to know (now,
specifically) if I can:

a) add 2 more sticks of ram to the mobo I now have
b) bring the ram I have now into a newer mobo

Yes, you can add two more sticks. Or you could buy two new sticks and
retire the 2x256MB.

Bringing the old RAM over, is not likely to happen. 2x256MB is just too
small to drag around with you. And too irregular in terms of supporting
interleaving (i.e. mixing larger sticks with the old stuff). Your old RAM
config was great for benchmarking contests (like how high can I raise
my memory bus), but with some of the games that use a lot of memory
now, your old RAM is not a good base to build from. So adding 2x256MB
will allow you to play the games of today. But 2x1GB is better planning
at this point (and expensive, considering you won't be able to bring it
to a new computer).

If you add 2x256 to your current machine, that is good for the games
that already exist. Only Gothic 3 would not fit nicely (because its
architecture is so stupid). The rest can more or less fit in 1GB total.

-----------------------------:

I gotta Q or 2 and u may be able to answer it. This ram I assume is pretty
goodly:
http://www.pcvonline.com/productDetails.aspx?id=4731
[MAYBE BEST NEW RAM NOW AVAILABLE]
It does 1150.
1150/2=575.
575/2=287.5
But the timings look poorly, 5-5-5-18

The ram I bought a couple years ago is (guaranteed) rated at DDR533.
533x2=1066
533/2=266.5
http://www.ocztechnology.com/products/memory/ocz_el_ddr_pc_4200_dual_channel-eol
[MY RAM NOW]

It can run DDR400at 2- timings, and is CL 2.5-4-4-7 operation at 2.8 volts,
at 266/533/1066.

Yet it still overclocks to the same 287.5/575/1150 as the first ram listed
at the top. There are several reviews if you'd like. It was about $300 for
512MB (2x256). The timings I run now are, but I'm at. The timings at rated
PC4200 are, and according to the reviews, the timings at 287.5/575/1150,
maxed out / stable, are "OCZ EL4200 is completely stable at 280FSB or
560MHz, and I was able to run the memory at CAS-2.5 under PAT's most
aggressive settings (Turbo) on the P4C800E-Deluxe at 280FSB under all
circumstances. This is apparent in the benchmarks."
- from the conclusion (last page) at madshrimps review at the bottom of the
page of the review links at the ocz page above.

Since the RAM types don't have the same pinout, there is no point comparing
them. They're not "mix and match". CAS 2.5 on the old stuff, is equiv to
CAS 5 on the new stuff. And has to do with the clock rate of the command bus.

While this table is not complete, you'd have to go to DDR2-800 4-4-4
memory, to match the *latency* performance of DDR400 2-2-2 memory. But the
bandwidth of the DDR2-800 is much better, and the table does show that
trend. (Latency is proportional to CAS times the inverse of the clock
frequency being used. You should be able to figure out from this table,
how to work it out for the two memory types.)

http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/memory/display/ddr2-ddr_3.html

Latency is the delay time, from issuing a command, to getting the data
back. When a computer program has a random access pattern, and is going
all over the place in memory, that is when latency is fairly important.

Programs like Photoshop, make sequential accesses to RAM, and a program
like that depends more on bandwidth, or the megabytes per second. Some
simulation and scientific programs, on the other hand, make more random
accesses to memory. And then a lower latency might help. (Simply
because a lot of data from a memory burst, is being thrown away or is
not being used, when the access pattern is random.)

Now I know I'd need a cpu capable of running 1150. Are there any? Is there
anything close.ie pushing up the standard to be able to do that?

Sure, I know the perfect processor for that.

http://www.abxzone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59931

When you shove the following mobile into your motherboard, as with all
Mobiles, it defaults to FSB400 and core speed 1.2GHz. It doesn't run at the
rated speed, due to Speedstep starting it at its "slow" multiplier.
So, what the overclockers did, is raise the FSB to FSB1200, the
RAM to DDR600, and the core of this processor to 3.6GHz. But can
you run four sticks of RAM at DDR600 - nope, expect only two sticks
to do that, and not just any RAM is capable of that.

http://processorfinder.intel.com/Details.aspx?sSpec=sl726

There are three SL726 processors on Ebay right now.

Next, if my ram is running at better timings, at equal to the best
287.5/575/1150 numbers, are there other improvements I need to know about
with DDR2? Is there something I am missing? Like is DDR2 doing twice the
"work", which explains forgiving the timings? Is it like PC4200 really is
PC8400, and for what?

PC2-4200 is pretty lame by DDR2 standards. And that is why DDR2 is stomping
all over your old RAM. DDR2 goes up to 10000 now. So PC4200 is "so yesterday".

I was aware, simply by reading the reviews, all of the reviews testing this
(my) ram used the same mobo and cpu (ASUS P4C800E-D & 2.4C) - I was an idiot
and bought a 2.6C cpu, cause I wasn't aware of the connection, and thought
the 2.4C was just the best at the time. I was aware that in order to run at
287.5/575/1150 I could only use 2 mem slots (of the four) for some reason.
IS this still true? IOW if I got 2 more sticks of this (my) ram, are there
any new motherboards that can max out with all four (or more) slots, so I
can add 512MB or wish 1GB more, or more?

Bus loading is the issue. The record is probably somewhere around DDR600
for two sticks of RAM. With four sticks of RAM, you'd be lucky to get DDR500.
The bus loading caused by four sticks, and the ability of the Northbridge
to drive them, is what determines how far you can go. And that is why no
serious overclocker uses four sticks of RAM, because that would be an
uphill battle.

Paul

 

[bent]

Thanks, sorry I forgot to look in on this ng. Now the next obvious Q is
whether I could come up with it (more of the same) cheap, ideally a couple
big sticks of the 20% variety that would add. I am not having troubles
with any games yet (including Farcry), though things are lagging, esp. my
vid card.

I think I'll buy a cheap(er) all-in-one box next time, consider everything
in it a single unit as a whole to toss, or demote to my lesser pooter until
I do that again. Forget OC, extra cooling, etc. I think the cost of having
an Asus mobo, Ocz ram, Enermax psu, BFG vid card, SoundBlaster, etc, etc
just adds up too fast! The way it ends up is I never have everything all at
once anyways, and I probably end up suffering in the long run. Even if I
have some things it may just perpetuate this. There probably are no down
sides to this approach.

 

[bent]

do u (being anybody) have any input on this?

I just looked up my last set of receipts, 3 yrs. ago; not yesterday, but I
certainly don't want to think about doing it all again. It was the ideall
suited to be the best then, w/ some exceptions, but is ancient history now.
Same could be said in 3 yrs time, I'm sure. I read and read and never say
anybody saying anything about better alternatives. I'm trying to put this
in words:

If z is the total amount of money spent
You can put your money into brand names, say x
You can put your money into a technology (either quantity or quality), say y
xy=z

with a "box" you can get more of y with less in x for a lesser total z

In no time z means spit.

You may have to insist on specific upgrades.

Yes, no?

 

[kony]

Thanks, sorry I forgot to look in on this ng. Now the next obvious Q is
whether I could come up with it (more of the same) cheap, ideally a couple
big sticks of the 20% variety that would add. I am not having troubles
with any games yet (including Farcry), though things are lagging, esp. my
vid card.

Agreed, the video card is a weak point for newer games.
Farcry in particular would play faster if you left some of
the eyecandy disabled, for example set water quality to
medium or lower not high.

I think I'll buy a cheap(er) all-in-one box next time, consider everything
in it a single unit as a whole to toss, or demote to my lesser pooter until
I do that again. Forget OC, extra cooling, etc. I think the cost of having
an Asus mobo, Ocz ram, Enermax psu, BFG vid card, SoundBlaster, etc, etc
just adds up too fast! The way it ends up is I never have everything all at
once anyways, and I probably end up suffering in the long run. Even if I
have some things it may just perpetuate this. There probably are no down
sides to this approach.

It all depends on what you buy, you can put down close to
$200 (or more) on an Asus board, or there are other Asus for
closer to $75. High-end memory is seldom a good value
unless you already knew memory would hold back a
significantly higher overclock.

Enermax PSU are a bit pricey for what they are sometimes,
but investing in a quality PSU is usually a good idea - and
if the one you already have is beefy enough, it can be
reused through the next upgrade so you get more years per $
from PSU, and case, than many parts.

Video card expense is just unavoidable for gaming, you'll
pay a pretty penny through an OEM to get a decent gaming
card too, often you end up paying more for other system
features not so important for gaming just to get the video
card option.

Sound card is another reusable part, not a loss like the
board and CPU if you upgrade those without a reason to reuse
them.

You don't have to buy high-end when building your own, but
once you start to consider that a good case, PSU, choice of
sound card, and a higher % of money can be put towards the
video card than the CPU, it remains a cost effective
alternative to buying an OEM box so long as you dont' need
the OEM bundled software... which you might if you want to
go Windows Vista, it costs quite a lot for anything but the
basic version. I wouldn't use Vista now but eventually a
gamer will find too many games benefitting from DX10.

 

[bent]

My last 3 or 4 mobos have cost me $1000, all Asus. I guess the only thing
for sure about my next pooter wil be dual core - I know NOthing about this.

My Enermax psu is 3 yrs old. Its 460W and I wonder if its got any future.
Some vid cards now need 2 extra molex! I see 1200W psu ads. It was 1/2
that 3 yeasrs ago. I didn't buy a tonne more power than I needed, just a
click or two less than the biggest.

I don't thnk I'll by another AGP vid card if the last of the AGP cards are
coming out (egGF7800GS), if everything is PCI-E. no X9XX, no XX5X, no 8XXX.

So
700 vid card
300 mobo
1000 cpus
300 ram
200 psu
---------
is it or is it not $3000 to make it happen. This is a total guess.
Assuming you have a case, fans/lights/switches, HDDs, CD/DVDs, SB, modem,
speakers, monitor, kBD, MSE.

What I'm saying is you can't buy a $75 mobo if you buy dual cpus, unless you
"get a Dell" ANd you better buy it all together, cause if you don't before
you blink its worthless.


The prob with having a good mobo and std cpu is if you buy decent ram,
immediately you can have 20% more perf. eg4GHz>4.8Ghz.- Its a slippery
slope. all you have to do is not take any chances!!!!!!!!! IOW why take a
chance of not having it. Anything will be money well wasted in short order.

Actually if anyone cares to point out an AMD/ Intel cpu/mobo/ram
product/cost/ideal comparison you'd be the first I've looked at in 3 yrs.
Prices just for comparsion. My above numbers could be off. I just guessed.
I don't even know if you need two cpu chips, or if dual is 2-in-1. The
thing is if you just leave out one bit, in no time, a no-name bottom dollar
m/c will blow yours away. Before you can blink! Numbers off the chart! the
bottom

 

[bent]

P2B
CUSL2-C
P4C800E-D $273.70

There may be another new can't rmember, and no bills.

My psu is 465W, not 460.
+3.3 35A .3
+5 35A .3
+12 33A 1.5
-5 1A 0
-12 1A 0
+5vsb 2.2A .1

On a good note I totally lucked out on my mp3 player. My Samsump 192MM
Yepp55 died, nothing, so I got a Creative Zen Nano Plus 512MB w/ FM at the
checkout for $34.99 at the checkout. Pricing error! Its listed for $100 at
BB and FS, and $70 at Staples/BD. Of course I have my Koss Porta Pro
headphones. No comparison. Do yourself a huge favour if you listen on the
go. Just get these.

 

[Rod Speed]

Thanks, sorry I forgot to look in on this ng. Now the next obvious Q is whether I could come up
with it (more of the same) cheap, ideally a couple big sticks of the 20% variety that would add.
I am not having troubles with any games yet (including Farcry), though things are lagging, esp. my
vid card.

I think I'll buy a cheap(er) all-in-one box next time, consider everything in it a single unit as
a whole to toss, or demote to my lesser pooter until I do that again. Forget OC, extra cooling,
etc. I think the cost of having an Asus mobo, Ocz ram, Enermax psu, BFG vid card, SoundBlaster,
etc, etc just adds up too fast! The way it ends up is I never have everything all at once
anyways, and I probably end up suffering in the long run. Even if I have some things it may just
perpetuate this. There probably are no down sides to this approach.

There are actually, you're stuck with whatever crap they
choose to include, most obviously with the power supply.

 

[Rod Speed]

do u (being anybody) have any input on this?

I just looked up my last set of receipts, 3 yrs. ago; not yesterday, but I certainly don't want to
think about doing it all again. It was the ideall suited to be the best then, w/ some exceptions,
but is ancient history now. Same could be said in 3 yrs time, I'm sure. I read and read and never
say anybody saying anything about better alternatives. I'm trying to put this in words:

If z is the total amount of money spent
You can put your money into brand names, say x
You can put your money into a technology (either quantity or quality), say y
xy=z

That last bit makes no sense.

with a "box" you can get more of y with less in x for a lesser total z

In no time z means spit.

You may have to insist on specific upgrades.

Yes, no?

Really depends on what you need. If your needs arent anything
special and you are prepared to take the chance with cheap
power supplys that can fry quite a bit when they die, it can be
cheaper and is certainly easier to just buy an assembled system.

You cant necessarily say just replace the power supply with a better
one because that may well have warranty problems with packaged
systems unless you swap the original back for a warranty claim.

 

[kony]

My last 3 or 4 mobos have cost me $1000, all Asus. I guess the only thing
for sure about my next pooter wil be dual core - I know NOthing about this.

My Enermax psu is 3 yrs old. Its 460W and I wonder if its got any future.
Some vid cards now need 2 extra molex! I see 1200W psu ads. It was 1/2
that 3 yeasrs ago. I didn't buy a tonne more power than I needed, just a
click or two less than the biggest.

I don't thnk I'll by another AGP vid card if the last of the AGP cards are
coming out (egGF7800GS), if everything is PCI-E. no X9XX, no XX5X, no 8XXX.

So
700 vid card
300 mobo
1000 cpus
300 ram
200 psu

Frankly I think you're overdoing it, it's better to spend
less and upgrade more often (given same per annum budget)
than to put so much into hardware and wait as long as you
did with the current system. Especially so with the video
card, PCI Express should be around at least long enough to
get a couple more upgrade cycles out of it.

I don't claim to know what else you might do with the system
but typically the video card should cost as much or more
than the CPU for a gamer, though as mentioned above you
could always upgrade the video card later but what I was
really getting at is that the premium paid for the CPU isn't
as cost effective as replacing it more often. Especially
for someone who's going to overclock, the CPU need not cost
more than the memory.

What I'm saying is you can't buy a $75 mobo if you buy dual cpus, unless you
"get a Dell" ANd you better buy it all together, cause if you don't before
you blink its worthless.

You mean two CPUs or one dual core CPU?

The prob with having a good mobo and std cpu is if you buy decent ram,
immediately you can have 20% more perf. eg4GHz>4.8Ghz.- Its a slippery
slope. all you have to do is not take any chances!!!!!!!!! IOW why take a
chance of not having it. Anything will be money well wasted in short order.

I wasn't suggesting to buy a "bad" motherboard, nor
defeatured when it comes to overclocking (since you seem to
want to do that again?) but quite a few lower to mid priced
boards now allow significant overclocking, they might not
o'c as far, but they might, or at least close enough as the
last few % overclock always takes exotic parts anyway due to
the increase in power required and heat produced.

Actually if anyone cares to point out an AMD/ Intel cpu/mobo/ram
product/cost/ideal comparison you'd be the first I've looked at in 3 yrs.
Prices just for comparsion. My above numbers could be off. I just guessed.
I don't even know if you need two cpu chips, or if dual is 2-in-1. The
thing is if you just leave out one bit, in no time, a no-name bottom dollar
m/c will blow yours away. Before you can blink! Numbers off the chart! the
bottom

I suggest you get a E6400 Core2Duo and overclock it. They
overclock great. Up the memory to 2GB at least, get a basic
name brand motherboard and nVidia 8xxx series video card.
You could pay a premium for that now or just get what covers
your needs for the next 12-18 months then sell it while it
still has some value and upgrade again... what you do there
can also depend on the size of the monitor you want to
drive, personally if I were coming close to a $3000 budget
I'd spend 3X as much on the monitor as on anything else.

 

[bent]

My point is its all gonna be crap. A 2 yr old $1000 entire box will perform
as well as a 3 yr. old system with a $3000 upgrade, due to the savings in
crap, and absolute incremental improvements.

 

[bent]

"kony" wrote >

You mean two CPUs or one dual core CPU?

I DON'T KNOW OF EITHER, DIDN'T KNOW AT ALL UNTIL NOW! What?

I wasn't suggesting to buy a "bad" motherboard, nor
defeatured when it comes to overclocking (since you seem to
want to do that again?) but quite a few lower to mid priced
boards now allow significant overclocking, they might not
o'c as far, but they might, or at least close enough as the
last few % overclock always takes exotic parts anyway due to
the increase in power required and heat produced.

APPLES AND ORANGES

I suggest you get a E6400 Core2Duo and overclock it. They
overclock great. Up the memory to 2GB at least, get a basic
name brand motherboard and nVidia 8xxx series video card.
You could pay a premium for that now or just get what covers
your needs for the next 12-18 months then sell it while it
still has some value and upgrade again... what you do there
can also depend on the size of the monitor you want to
drive, personally if I were coming close to a $3000 budget
I'd spend 3X as much on the monitor as on anything else.

I'LL LOOK INTO THAT CPU/MOBO NOW. I'm happy with my black Viewsonic 19"
P95f+. Its a perfect flat triiny tube. All the research 3 yrs ago told me
there wasn't anything in flat panel that was worth spit when it came to
gaming due to the lag. I don't know if that has been solved. At the time
it was a possiblity if you had $1000 to spend, but I didn't. I don't know
if even the mainstream are good now. Have you heard of this?

 

[Rod Speed]

My point is its all gonna be crap.

The point is that something with decent components you
have chosen wont be crap initially, whereas the assembled
system will be crap on stuff like the risk of the power
supply killing everything right from the start.

Corse that isnt necessarily a major consideration if you buy a
new one as soon as the warranty expires or when it does die,
and you are fully backed up and dont care about the down time.

A 2 yr old $1000 entire box will perform as well as a 3 yr. old system with a $3000 upgrade, due
to the savings in crap, and absolute incremental improvements.

Those arent the only two alternatives, the other obvious
alternative is gradual upgrades as required with a decent
components instead of just buying a new assembled system.

If you buy decent components now, you will certainly be able
to buy a better video card later once new games need that,
and you wont have to replace the whole system at once then.

 

[kony]

I'LL LOOK INTO THAT CPU/MOBO NOW. I'm happy with my black Viewsonic 19"
P95f+. Its a perfect flat triiny tube. All the research 3 yrs ago told me
there wasn't anything in flat panel that was worth spit when it came to
gaming due to the lag. I don't know if that has been solved. At the time
it was a possiblity if you had $1000 to spend, but I didn't. I don't know
if even the mainstream are good now. Have you heard of this?

There is quite a large difference between LCD response 3
years ago and today. Unless you get something quite large,
response time is no longer an issue, the issue more
significant is how high the native resolution is as it
effects the # of pixels the video card has to deal with when
gaming.

You were already proposing $1000 for CPU so it seems now it
is within the budget to go for a larger monitor... or maybe
you dont' care, I can't that call for you but it is nice to
be able to sit a little further away from the monitor if
nothing else.