9600SE vs 9500PRO

M

Mike P

The 9100 is not dx9, and neither is the 9000 or 9200. And the 8500 wasn't a
lot slower than the gf4 ti4200, I benched both cards in the same machine a
while back.

Mike
 
R

Roland Scheidegger

Darthy said:
8500 is DX8 - GF3 performance, about half the abilities of a GF4 Ti
card...
actually, the GF4 has pretty much the same abilities as a GF3. In fact,
both of them have less abilities than the 8500/9000/9100/9200 cards -
those support newer pixel shaders (for instance, Max Payne 2 will miss
some mirror effects on the GF4 Ti because of this, but it will be
full-featured on the 8500/9000/9100/9200 cards). On the other hand, the
GF3/GF4 also have some features which are not supported on the
8500/9[012]00 cards (mainly shadow buffers), but those are mainly
important in OpenGL, they are non-standard in DirectX.
Performance-wise, the 8500 (and 9000pro, which is almost the same
speedwise as the 8500, usually a bit slower, but indeed sometimes
slightly faster) usually get beaten by the GF4 TI though.
and the GF4 cards (not mx) are slowing becoming outdated for
new games.
True, however so far I haven't really seen a game which would absolutely
require a faster card - of course, some effects will be missing, and
"serious" gamers might want 4xAA and AF which those cards are just too
slow at with new games.

Roland
 
W

Wblane

I used to hand-code 8051 assembly in 64K of ROM. It would've been great to have
had 512KB for our applications (controlling broadcast quality video servers in
real-time via RS-422).
the first machine I worked on had 8k of RAM.

The company I worked for sold the machine & software (payroll, stock
control etc) for 15,000 pounds (back when you could actually buy something
for a pound)

Bill


-Bill (remove "botizer" to reply via email)
 
D

Darthy

Hmmm... did I say anywhere that the 9000~9200 were DX9?

The GF3 card is on par with the 8500, but usually faster and with
better drivers back then. Hence, ATI lost that round to Nvidia.

The 8500 is not in the same family as the Ti4200. Benched on what
computer? If you put both cards on a PIII-900Mhz computer, they will
both perform about the same due to the bottleneck of the CPU.

Look at this link:
http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/20031229/vga-charts-03.html#unreal_tournament_2003

The R8500 and R9000Pros are listed here, even the 9600se. Running on
a very fast P4 system.

R9200 : 30fps
R8500 : 39fps
Ti4200 : 52fps

Not twice as fast, but a healthy performer... hmmm... notice the 5200
is quite a bit slower. ;)
 
A

Asestar

Slow edition, slow-as egg, Shit edition, sloppy edition you name it! But the
thing is as you pay for. Better than 9200/9200se/5200/5200se that are in
somewhat same price range. +dx9 for screensavers and 3d demos, nothing more.
Not quite hp to run dx9 effects in games tough.
 
R

Rob Stow

Asestar said:
Slow edition, slow-as egg, Shit edition, sloppy edition you name it! But the
thing is as you pay for. Better than 9200/9200se/5200/5200se that are in
somewhat same price range. +dx9 for screensavers and 3d demos, nothing more.
Not quite hp to run dx9 effects in games tough.

If anyone has a SE edition of a Radeon that they are
not happy with, let me know.

I don't play games so I could care less about 3D performance.

I just need a card that can give me decent 2D image quality
at 1600 x 1200 at a vertical refresh rate of at least 75 Hz.
Would be nice if it has both VGA and DVI connectors since
I have a CRT now and have hopes of switching to LCD before
the end of the year.

Probably the most demanding task I ever need my video card
to do is video playback.
 
A

Asestar

Then I guess SE version should appeal to you. Even 9200SE is more than what
you require. All modern cards have excellent 2D performance. However I loves
(and still do) 2D quality of voodoo3 agp..
 
R

Rob Stow

Asestar said:
Then I guess SE version should appeal to you. Even 9200SE is more than what
you require. All modern cards have excellent 2D performance.

Depends on how you define "excellent 2D performance".

Matrox excels at this. The image clarity and colour fidelity
produced by Matrox cards is unbeatable.

NVidia sucks at this. If you find it hard on your eyes
to work all day long on a monitor driven by an nVidia
card, switch to a Matrox card and the fonts will be
rendered much more crisply, lines will be much less fuzzy,
etc. The GeForce3 crap was particularly bad, but some
of the GeForce4 cards were almost tolerable.

ATI FireGL series cards are almost as good for 2D as
Matrox G550 and Parhelia. The Radeon 9xxx series cards
are halfway in between nVidia and Matrox.

For work, I insist on Matrox, but at home I don't put
in such long hours in front of a computer so ATI should
be good enough.
 
C

Creeping Stone

=|[ Rob Stow's ]|= said:
Asestar said:
Then I guess SE version should appeal to you. Even 9200SE is more than what
you require. All modern cards have excellent 2D performance.

Depends on how you define "excellent 2D performance".

Matrox excels at this. The image clarity and colour fidelity
produced by Matrox cards is unbeatable.

NVidia sucks at this. If you find it hard on your eyes
to work all day long on a monitor driven by an nVidia
card, switch to a Matrox card and the fonts will be
rendered much more crisply, lines will be much less fuzzy,
etc.

Im not sure, but that sounds rather odd to me. Isnt the communication
between the card and the monitor digital? How could a card make a monitor
render lines more crisply? What about TFTs ? I can understand some
prefering certain colour balances , but without understanding this fully -
think that sounds false.

While comparing, sure your not noticing differences such as the default
refresh rate changing ??

I spend a heck of a lot of time staring at screen, and turn the resolution
down if anythings fuzzy, and keep good eyesight by taking in distant
scenery when I can.

Anyway, Id be greatful if anyone could hazard how that can work - sounds a
little to me like the old stories of some extremely expensive CD players
extracting nicer sounding digital than some slightly less expensive
players.
 
D

Dave B3650

just to change the subject - has anyone had this problem and how did you
sort it/....

ive an ecs k7s5a m/b
xp pro
256 ddr mem
120 hd


all help is really appreciated

Dave :(


im new to this group so i hope im not posting something that has been listed
a thousand times before.....

Basically, i bought a 9600 pro card and when i install the software......up
pops a nasty looking error....

"ZERO DISPLAY SERVICE ERROR"........i tried google for info.....found
it....didnt understand it....

i still dont know whats going on.....

Can some one shed any light.......

Many thanks ....Dave :)

Creeping Stone said:
=|[ Rob Stow's ]|= said:
Asestar said:
Then I guess SE version should appeal to you. Even 9200SE is more than what
you require. All modern cards have excellent 2D performance.

Depends on how you define "excellent 2D performance".

Matrox excels at this. The image clarity and colour fidelity
produced by Matrox cards is unbeatable.

NVidia sucks at this. If you find it hard on your eyes
to work all day long on a monitor driven by an nVidia
card, switch to a Matrox card and the fonts will be
rendered much more crisply, lines will be much less fuzzy,
etc.

Im not sure, but that sounds rather odd to me. Isnt the communication
between the card and the monitor digital? How could a card make a monitor
render lines more crisply? What about TFTs ? I can understand some
prefering certain colour balances , but without understanding this fully -
think that sounds false.

While comparing, sure your not noticing differences such as the default
refresh rate changing ??

I spend a heck of a lot of time staring at screen, and turn the resolution
down if anythings fuzzy, and keep good eyesight by taking in distant
scenery when I can.

Anyway, Id be greatful if anyone could hazard how that can work - sounds a
little to me like the old stories of some extremely expensive CD players
extracting nicer sounding digital than some slightly less expensive
players.
 
C

Creeping Stone

=|[ Creeping Stone's ]|= said:
...Anyway, Id be greatful if anyone could hazard how that can work - sounds a
little to me like the old stories of some extremely expensive CD players
extracting nicer sounding digital than some slightly less expensive
players.

=|[ Dave B3650's ]|= said:
just to change the subject - has anyone had this problem and how did you
sort it/....

Humpf :[
You coulda started afresh yaknow :p
 
R

Roland Scheidegger

Creeping said:
=|[ Rob Stow's ]|= wrote:

Depends on how you define "excellent 2D performance".

Matrox excels at this. The image clarity and colour fidelity
produced by Matrox cards is unbeatable.

NVidia sucks at this. If you find it hard on your eyes to work all
day long on a monitor driven by an nVidia card, switch to a Matrox
card and the fonts will be rendered much more crisply, lines will
be much less fuzzy, etc.


Im not sure, but that sounds rather odd to me. Isnt the communication
between the card and the monitor digital? How could a card make a
monitor render lines more crisply? What about TFTs ? I can understand
some prefering certain colour balances , but without understanding
this fully - think that sounds false.
No, VGA is analog, and there definitely ARE noticeable differences in
signal quality, at least with high resolutions (1600x1200, possibly
1280x1024, below usually isn't a problem for todays cards). If you use a
TFT with DVI in and your graphic card has DVI out, then the signal is
digital and it doesn't matter (note though that quite a lot of DVI
outputs on graphic cards - especially those on cheap nvidia cards - are
often not really DVI compliant, but if your TFT isn't especially
sensitive to signal quality it likely doesn't matter. You can read more
about it here: http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1370516,00.asp).
That said, it is no longer true that the VGA signal quality of ATI cards
is always better than those of Nvidia. Since the signal quality is
almost exclusively dependant on the output filter (just a bunch of
resistors / capacitors) and not the graphic chip, it depends on the
manufacturer/model which card has good output quality. Usually, the more
expensive cards do have good output quality, while the low-end cards not
always do (the ati radeon 7000 for instance almost always has crappy
signal quality).
Anyway, Id be greatful if anyone could hazard how that can work -
sounds a little to me like the old stories of some extremely
expensive CD players extracting nicer sounding digital than some
slightly less expensive players.
Who the heck uses CD players when good old gramophone records sound so
much better anyway ;-).

Roland
 
C

Creeping Stone

=|[ Roland Scheidegger's ]|= said:
Creeping said:
=|[ Rob Stow's ]|= said:
Asestar wrote:

Then I guess SE version should appeal to you. Even 9200SE is more
than what you require. All modern cards have excellent 2D
performance.

Depends on how you define "excellent 2D performance".

Matrox excels at this. The image clarity and colour fidelity
produced by Matrox cards is unbeatable.

NVidia sucks at this. If you find it hard on your eyes to work all
day long on a monitor driven by an nVidia card, switch to a Matrox
card and the fonts will be rendered much more crisply, lines will
be much less fuzzy, etc.

Im not sure, but that sounds rather odd to me. Isnt the communication
between the card and the monitor digital? How could a card make a
monitor render lines more crisply? What about TFTs ? I can understand
some prefering certain colour balances , but without understanding
this fully - think that sounds false.
No, VGA is analog, and there definitely ARE noticeable differences in
signal quality, at least with high resolutions (1600x1200, possibly
1280x1024, below usually isn't a problem for todays cards). If you use a
TFT with DVI in and your graphic card has DVI out, then the signal is
digital and it doesn't matter (note though that quite a lot of DVI
outputs on graphic cards - especially those on cheap nvidia cards - are
often not really DVI compliant, but if your TFT isn't especially
sensitive to signal quality it likely doesn't matter. You can read more
about it here: http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1370516,00.asp).
That said, it is no longer true that the VGA signal quality of ATI cards
is always better than those of Nvidia. Since the signal quality is
almost exclusively dependant on the output filter (just a bunch of
resistors / capacitors) and not the graphic chip, it depends on the
manufacturer/model which card has good output quality. Usually, the more
expensive cards do have good output quality, while the low-end cards not
always do (the ati radeon 7000 for instance almost always has crappy
signal quality).
Thanks very much for explaining this, &top linkage, I can put my cynicism
to rest now :D
Who the heck uses CD players when good old gramophone records sound so
much better anyway ;-).

Roland

imbo, the wax cylinder has never been beat ;]
 
R

Rob Stow

Creeping said:
=|[ Rob Stow's ]|= wrote:

Depends on how you define "excellent 2D performance".

Matrox excels at this. The image clarity and colour fidelity
produced by Matrox cards is unbeatable.

NVidia sucks at this. If you find it hard on your eyes
to work all day long on a monitor driven by an nVidia
card, switch to a Matrox card and the fonts will be
rendered much more crisply, lines will be much less fuzzy,
etc.


Im not sure, but that sounds rather odd to me. Isnt the communication
between the card and the monitor digital?

Depends on the card and the monitor. Typically a CRT takes
an analog signal and an LCD takes a digital signal, but there
are many exceptions, including
- digital CRTs. They take a digital signal from the video
card and then internally convert to analog before displaying.
- analog LCDs. They take an analog signal from the video card
and then internally convert to digital before displaying.
- CRTs with both digital and analog inputs.
- LCDs with both digital and analog inputs.
How could a card make a monitor render lines more crisply?

In the case of a CRT, at some point the digital signal in
the video card's memory has to be converted to an analog signal
that the monitor can display. This is done by a chip called
a RAMDAC - RAM stands for, well, RAM. DAC is digital-to-analog
converter.

Not all RAMDACs are created equal - some do a much better job
than others. For any given digital data stream there is just
one ideal analog waveform - and some RAMDACs do a better job of
approximating that ideal waveform than others.

The quality of a RAMDAC affects more than just lines - it
affects the accuracy of any shape you might display on a CRT.
The crispness of fonts is also strongly affected by the quality
of the RAMDAC. It also affects the colour fidelity of the image.

And if you are doing something where colour fidelity is
very important, you are using a CRT and not an LCD. The
colour fidelity of LCDs is gradually improving, but it still
can't compete with a good CRT.

What about TFTs ? I can understand some
prefering certain colour balances , but without understanding this fully -
think that sounds false.

While comparing, sure your not noticing differences such as the default
refresh rate changing ??

Who uses the defaults ?
Defaults are a great way to get the least out of your monitor.
I spend a heck of a lot of time staring at screen, and turn the resolution
down if anythings fuzzy, and keep good eyesight by taking in distant
scenery when I can.

You really should try a Matrox G550, P650, P750, or a Parhelia.
If you have a good monitor that /can/ display a good signal
clearly, then a Matrox card can give it the signal it needs.
Nobody who uses a Matrox will ever voluntarily stoop to using
something else again.
Anyway, Id be greatful if anyone could hazard how that can work - sounds a
little to me like the old stories of some extremely expensive CD players
extracting nicer sounding digital than some slightly less expensive
players.

And they do. A couple of major factors that the good CD players
do better than the el-cheapo brands:
1.) Dealing with flaws - suchs as scratches - in the CD.
2.) At some point the digital data stream from the CD has to be
converted to the analog signal needed by the speakers. Again,
a RAMDAC is used and not all RAMDACs are created equal.
 
C

Creeping Stone

=|[ Rob Stow's ]|= said:
Creeping said:
Im not sure, but that sounds rather odd to me. Isnt the communication
between the card and the monitor digital?

Depends on the card and the monitor. Typically a CRT takes
an analog signal and an LCD takes a digital signal, but there
are many exceptions, including...
While comparing, sure your not noticing differences such as the default
refresh rate changing ??

Who uses the defaults ?
Defaults are a great way to get the least out of your monitor.
I spend a heck of a lot of time staring at screen, and turn the resolution
down if anythings fuzzy, and keep good eyesight by taking in distant
scenery when I can.

You really should try a Matrox G550, P650, P750, or a Parhelia.
If you have a good monitor that /can/ display a good signal
clearly, then a Matrox card can give it the signal it needs.
Nobody who uses a Matrox will ever voluntarily stoop to using
something else again.
Ive heard this about Matrox before so Ill be looking out for that if one of
my coding projects works out.. At the moment I make do with keeping the
pixels big enough not to be fuzzy so the eyes arent constantly trying to
focus on something that wont ever focus ;)
Temping in offices - I see people working with dreadfully fuzzy, buzzy
displays - you guys are talking about a different class of equipment.
And they do. A couple of major factors that the good CD players
do better than the el-cheapo brands:
1.) Dealing with flaws - suchs as scratches - in the CD.
2.) At some point the digital data stream from the CD has to be
converted to the analog signal needed by the speakers. Again,
a RAMDAC is used and not all RAMDACs are created equal.

It was an old hifi article I read were these 1000 quid readers where being
tested against each other, and they were feeding digital to the same dac
and amp for comparison. The entire review was fantasy, along with the tips
about placing pieces of cardboard under sofa legs to improve room
acoustics.

-I try and watch out for that, Im a sucker for placebo, everything needs
documented these days or y' just end up in the noddy ;)
(nude -emps clothes)
 
D

Darthy

If anyone has a SE edition of a Radeon that they are
not happy with, let me know.

Thats a lot of people... just like the ones who buy 5200s and 5600
Geforce cards.
I don't play games so I could care less about 3D performance.

The the 9600se would be just FINE for you. I've installed a 9600se
into a customers computer that it was fine for.
I just need a card that can give me decent 2D image quality
at 1600 x 1200 at a vertical refresh rate of at least 75 Hz.
Would be nice if it has both VGA and DVI connectors since
I have a CRT now and have hopes of switching to LCD before
the end of the year.

A $60 ATI 9200se can do that just as well. It too has good 2D output
with DVI and VGA output (some dont have DVI)
Probably the most demanding task I ever need my video card
to do is video playback.

Any card will do that.
 
D

Darthy

No, you didn't sya they were dx9, I guess I read that into your post ;-?
I benced the cards on an athlon1200 I think it was, in an ecs board.
Check this link from the same review, the cards are very close, 68fps vs 71:
http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/20031229/vga-charts-05.html

With an AMD1200 - there isn't going to be much if any improvements.

But hay... the 8500 Lives on in a way.... the GF3 has long since gone
away. Even the "new" GF-MX4000 is a GF2 core modified to display
DX8, perhaps with emulation? So imagine - the performance of the
GF2mx that displays GF3 graphics!!!

Geez - why not simply put out the GF3?
 
A

Asestar

Cause they cost nVidia a lot of bucks to make GF3... Those babies weren't
cheap, not to buy nor to make!

But hey, maybe when new GeForce6 line come out, GF6-Mx series will be based
on GF3 core? But that's probably in late 2005, when 9600 and 9700 would be
what Gf2 is today. May time prove me correct!
 

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