3 IDE drives died together

J

J.Clarke

On 8 Dec 2003 22:22:26 -0800
Up until last week my wife's computer had been working without any
noticed errors. Then one day it refuses to power up. After some
experimentation, I found that it would power up if I disconnected the
C drive (connected to IDE-0 primary). This got me into Bios Setup,
where I saw the system would not recognize either the second hard disk
or the zip drive. I tried taking each of these 3 devices out and
connecting them one at a time to a different computer - in each case
Bios Setup saw NOTHING. From this I surmise that all three disks died,
and at exactly the same time. The computer where they died was
connected to a Belkin UPS, and I have never had problems with voltage
surges in my AC lines. What could possibly explain the simultaneous
frying of two hard disks and a zipdrive? The power supply? Bill
Thornhill

There are several possibilities that come to mind.

One is that for whatever reason excessive voltage was applied to one or
more of the signal lines on the IDE bus. This could have been caused by
a component failure on the motherboard or by something (piece of
hardware, a screw, nut, washer, even a tiny metal chip or piece of
tinsel) shorting the wrong two traces together. It would be worthwhile
to examine the motherboard or host adapter with a magnifier under a good
light to see if you see anything of that nature--if not then be very
suspicious of that motherboard--it might be a good idea to pick up a
cheap drive at a computer show, test it in another machine to confirm
that it runs, then see if it runs in the machine with the problem before
you risk a new drive in it--if that drive dies too then you need to
either RMA or toss the motherboard or host adapter.

Another possibility is that there was a surge for whatever reason--you
don't say where you are but given the recent snow if you're in the
northeastern US it's possible that a surge was generated by a failure in
the electrical grid near your home that caused a significant surge (for
example a pole gets hit and while it's coming down a high voltage line
comes in contact with a line that is normally run at a lower voltage).
Still, it would have to be a whopping big one to get through both your
UPS and your power supply--PC power supplies can generally take a
surprisingly large overvoltage. Don't put too much confidence in that
Belkin UPS by the way--they don't provide isolation--for that you need
something like a Best Power Ferrups and they aren't cheap--so it doesn't
give you much more protection than an ordinary surge suppressor. It may
go on battery if the line voltage rises above a certain level but the
response time for that sort of event is not instantaneous--if the
voltage rise is fast enough it can let a spike through.

Another is that the power supply itself is letting excessive voltage
through--check the outputs with a good meter (if you don't have one, the
"Fluke" brand meters that are sold at Home Depot and Sears are of very
high quality--get one of those in preference to a Radio Shack cheapie if
you can afford it) and make sure that they are what they are supposed to
be--if not then toss the power supply and get an Antec or Enermax or if
you want a really quiet machine a Seasonic. This is something of a long
shot as the motherboard seems to still be functioning--that kind of
power supply failure should have killed the motherboard too, but
electricity doesn't always do what you expect it to do.

Another is a big jolt of static--are you getting a lot of it? If so
then you can put the machine on a big static mat or you can spray
antistatic fluid on the surroundings--you can use diluted fabric
softener for this but the purpose made stuff (Staticide is the best
known brand) is easier on the fabrics--if it's not rinsed out then
fabric softener tends to stay a little bit tacky and hold dirt, which
will eventually abrade the fabric in any high-traffic area. Or you can
increase the humidity above 50 percent, which will likely do good things
for your sinuses and your wooden furniture as well as your computer.

A long shot is mechanical damage--if something bumped the machine hard
enough it might have crashed all the drives, but that doesn't normally
cause the kind of problem you are describing and it shouldn't have
affected the Zip in any case.
 
J

JB

Up until last week my wife's computer had been working without any
noticed errors. Then one day it refuses to power up. After some
experimentation, I found that it would power up if I disconnected the
C drive (connected to IDE-0 primary). This got me into Bios Setup,
where I saw the system would not recognize either the second hard disk
or the zip drive. I tried taking each of these 3 devices out and
connecting them one at a time to a different computer - in each case
Bios Setup saw NOTHING. From this I surmise that all three disks died,
and at exactly the same time. The computer where they died was
connected to a Belkin UPS, and I have never had problems with voltage
surges in my AC lines. What could possibly explain the simultaneous
frying of two hard disks and a zipdrive? The power supply? Bill
Thornhill
 
R

Rod Speed

Up until last week my wife's computer had been working without
any noticed errors. Then one day it refuses to power up. After some
experimentation, I found that it would power up if I disconnected the
C drive (connected to IDE-0 primary). This got me into Bios Setup,
where I saw the system would not recognize either the second hard
disk > or the zip drive. I tried taking each of these 3 devices out and
connecting them one at a time to a different computer - in each case
Bios Setup saw NOTHING. From this I surmise that all three disks
died, and at exactly the same time.

That can happen with some failures of power supplys.
The computer where they died was connected to a Belkin
UPS, and I have never had problems with voltage surges
in my AC lines. What could possibly explain the simultaneous
frying of two hard disks and a zipdrive? The power supply?

Yep, thats by far the most likely cause of that result.
 
C

Carlos Moreno

JB said:
The computer where they died was
connected to a Belkin UPS

Could it be that the Belkin UPS tried to force some
advertising into the hard drives? Maybe the hard drives
didn't like a UPS writing unsolicited data, so they
refused, and then Belkin decided to retaliate by
sending a power surge sufficient to damage all hard
drives?

I mean, it only sounds consistent with Belkin's
standard practices nowadays... :-\

Carlos
--
 
W

w_tom

I see no reference that you know the difference between how
master and slave IDE drives work. A slave drive must be
modified to be a master before it can work.

Second, if all three drives failed due to a voltage
transient, then the power supply is missing an essential
functions that makes computer component damage not possible.
But since so many computer experts are only expert on price,
then too many power supplies are missing this function that
was defacto standard 30 years ago and required by Intel
specs. Many essential functions are missing from power
supplies selling for less than $50. Minimally prices power
supplies start retail at about $80 - to include essential
functions.

Was that power supply provided with a long list of specs
that included overvoltage protection? If it is not specially
listed, then it probably does not exist - which is a most
likely reason for all those drive failures probably on the +12
volts.

Another possibility is a power cored extender cable that had
bad ground (black wire) connections. If electronics is
provided multiple voltages (5 and 12) and that ground cable is
intermittent, then electronics can be damage. How do they
make power extender cords? They violate the requirements of
that Molex connector. Yes, it should make you wonder. Just
three ideas on why multiple drives appear to fail
simultaneously.
 
R

Rod Speed

I see no reference that you know the difference
between how master and slave IDE drives work.

Plenty of evidence that you've never had a clue.
A slave drive must be modified
to be a master before it can work.

Wrong. As always.
Second, if all three drives failed due to a voltage transient,
then the power supply is missing an essential functions
that makes computer component damage not possible.

Or that didnt work as intended.
But since so many computer experts are only expert
on price, then too many power supplies are missing
this function that was defacto standard 30 years ago

Not a clue, as always.
and required by Intel specs.

Intel gets no say on that.
Many essential functions are missing from
power supplies selling for less than $50.

More of your pathological lying.
Minimally prices power supplies start retail
at about $80 - to include essential functions.

Utterly mindless pig ignorant drivel. As always from you.
Was that power supply provided with a long list
of specs that included overvoltage protection?

Taint the specs that matter, fool.
If it is not specially listed, then it probably does not exist

Wrong. As always.
- which is a most likely reason for all those
drive failures probably on the +12 volts.
Another possibility is a power cored extender cable
that had bad ground (black wire) connections.

Very unlikely indeed that all 3 drives
were powered thru one of those.
If electronics is provided multiple voltages (5 and 12) and that
ground cable is intermittent, then electronics can be damage.

But very unlikely indeed that all 3 drives were powered thru one of those.
How do they make power extender cords? They
violate the requirements of that Molex connector.

Another pig ignorant lie.
Yes, it should make you wonder. Just three ideas
on why multiple drives appear to fail simultaneously.

Those arent 'ideas', most of them are
actually just more of your steaming turds.
 
C

Cheah TE

| Another possibility is that there was a surge
Can a AC voltage regulator block a surge ?
My present +12 & +5v rails have 16000 & 26520 µF added. 2 inductors
( fr dead PSUs, 3cm Ø size ) I assembled will be used if hdd`s motors /
ICs still look unstable. Can any of these block a surge ?
 
R

Rod Speed

Can a AC voltage regulator block a surge ?

A UPS can do that if its designed to power
the system from the batterys all the time.
My present +12 & +5v rails have 16000 & 26520 µF
added. 2 inductors ( fr dead PSUs, 3cm Ø size )

Those inductors are useless on the output rails.
I assembled will be used if hdd`s
motors / ICs still look unstable.

How do you know they are 'unstable' without that ?
Can any of these block a surge ?

Makes a lot more sense to stop it getting
into the power supply in the first place.

Thats a separate issue to the power supply failing
and grossly over voltaging at least one of the rails tho.
What you have added wont stop that. The only viable
way to stop that is a better designed power supply.
 
W

w_tom

Lightning travels through miles of non-conductive air. Is a
UPS going to stop or block what miles of air could not? Of
course not. Furthermore, the UPS does not even claim to
provide protection from a typically destructive transient.
Read their specs - which they make difficult to locate. They
avoid listing types of surges because protection is only from
one type. The type that does not typically cause damage.
They only claim to provide surge protection - and let the
consumer falsely assume that is protection from all types of
destructive surges. Just because it says surge protection
does not mean it protects from every type of transient.
Rather you did not even know the different types of transients
to sell their ineffective product.

Properly constructed power supply already has sufficient
internal protection - as even demanded by Intel specifications
and consumer appliance industry standards. Protection that
assumes destructive transients will be earthed before entering
a building. Technology well proven before WWII and widely
available at less than $1 per protected appliance even in Home
Depot. Its called a 'whole house' protector and connects less
than 10 feet to earth ground. That earthing connection
distance being important.

However if those $0.10 components inside a UPS were so
effective, then they too would already be inside that power
supply. Appliances already have effective protection - that
is overwhelmed if 'whole house' protectors are not installed.
And no plug-in UPS is going to provide that protection - which
is why they don't claim to provide that protection - and why
it is not already inside the power supply.

An ATX computer power supply is typically rated for about
2000 volts common mode. That is plenty of protection - but
only if the transient is earthed before it can enter the
building via utility wires. Transient protection is about
earthing before it can enter the building - which a plug-in
UPS cannot accomplish.

As for damping the output - all properly constructed ATX
power supplies must already contain those functions - as
previously posted.

Of course, Rod Speed cannot technically dispute this - so he
will insult me. It is his standard response. Why should he
stop now?
 
R

Rod Speed

Lightning travels through miles of non-conductive air.

Must be one of those rocket scientist pig ignorant fools.
Is a UPS going to stop or block what miles of air could not?

No one ever said it does, cretin.

What a UPS can and does do is get rid of differential
mode spikes on the mains that are the result of a
lightning strike well away from the UPS, cretin.

AND the original poster didnt even mention lightning.
Thats just your pathetic little hobby horse.
Of course not.

Having fun thrashing that straw man are you, cretin ?
Furthermore, the UPS does not even claim to
provide protection from a typically destructive transient.

But that type of UPS does anyway,
whatever they might or might not claim.
Read their specs - which they make difficult to locate.
Liar.

They avoid listing types of surges
because protection is only from one type.
Liar.

The type that does not typically cause damage.

You've never had a clue.
They only claim to provide surge protection

Funny that.
- and let the consumer falsely assume that is
protection from all types of destructive surges.

More of your pathological lying. And you just claimed
that they dont claim that. You cant have it both ways.
Just because it says surge protection does not
mean it protects from every type of transient.

Pity no one ever said they did, wanker.
Rather you did not even know the different
types of transients to sell their ineffective product.

You've never ever had a clue about this basic stuff. Most
obvious with that terminally silly shit of yours right at the top.
Properly constructed power supply
already has sufficient internal protection

Have fun reconciling that with that terminally
silly shit of yours right at the top.
- as even demanded by Intel specifications

Intel is completely irrelevant.
and consumer appliance industry standards.

More utterly mindless pig ignorant drivel. Those
dont require the device survive surges on the
mains, just that those dont produce a fire etc.
Protection that assumes destructive transients
will be earthed before entering a building.

Not a ****ing clue, as always.

And not even possible with differential mode surges on the mains.
Technology well proven before WWII

When there wasnt even any semiconductors in use, ****wit.
and widely available at less than $1 per protected appliance
even in Home Depot. Its called a 'whole house' protector

More of your pathological lying on the price.

And have fun explaining how it can do that in that lightning
situation you rabitted on about right at the top.
and connects less than 10 feet to earth ground.
That earthing connection distance being important.

Completely and utterly irrelevant to DIFFERENTIAL
MODE surges on the mains, wanker.
However if those $0.10 components
inside a UPS were so effective,

Not a ****ing clue, as always. Its the FACT that that
type of UPS has the mains charging the batterys all
the time the UPS is supplying anything that is a quite
effective way of getting rid of differential mode
surges on the mains, you pig ignorant clown.
then they too would already be inside that power supply.

Even someone as stupid as you should have noticed that not
too many ATX power supplys actually have an internal UPS, fool.
Appliances already have effective protection - that is
overwhelmed if 'whole house' protectors are not installed.

Make up your mind. Its either effective protection
or it can be overwhelmed, you pathetic clown.
And no plug-in UPS is going to provide that protection

Wrong. As always.
- which is why they don't claim to provide that protection

You just claimed they did, you pathetic excuse for a bullshit artist.
- and why it is not already inside the power supply.

There aint room, you pathetic excuse for a bullshit artist.
An ATX computer power supply is typically
rated for about 2000 volts common mode.

Pity that that type of UPS provides
DIFFERENTIAL MODE protection.

Not that you've ever been able to grasp the difference.
That is plenty of protection - but only if the transient
is earthed before it can enter the building via utility wires.

Pity about differential mode surges, ****wit.
Transient protection is about earthing
before it can enter the building

Wrong. As always.
- which a plug-in UPS cannot accomplish.

But it can do quite a bit about differential mode surges, ****wit.
As for damping the output - all properly
constructed ATX power supplies must already
contain those functions - as previously posted.

As previously wanked, actually.
Of course, Rod Speed cannot technically dispute this

Have done time after time after time, as has EVERYONE
else who has ever commented on your pig ignorant drivel.

Reams of your silly shit flushed where it belongs.
 

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