1000 year data storage for autonomous robotic facility

  • Thread starter Thread starter Bernhard Kuemel
  • Start date Start date
On Tue, 7 May 2013 06:25:46 +1000, "Rod Speed"


Perhaps you should ask yourself the same question. The original
question wasn't particularly clear or details. Why would anyone
bother asking only about preserving firmware? It seems more likely
that preserving petabytes of data would be more worthy of the effort.

It's about storing the human mind encoded in the human brain/body until
it can be scanned and transferred to an artificial
(electronic/optical/quantum/whatever) computer (see footnote [3] in the
OP). Maybe that's in the petabyte range. The human body needs to be
cooled with liquid nitrogen (LN2) for this purpose. The machines
producing the LN2 need maintenence and part of the maintenence is
keeping firmware and operating systems of the machines.
 
Shadow said:
Hi!

I'm planning a robotic facility [3] that needs to maintain hardware
(exchange defective parts) autonomously for up to 1000 years. One of the
problems is to maintain firmware and operating systems for this period.
What methods do you think are suitable?

Top priority is it must work about 1000 years. Price is not a big issue,
if necessary.

I thought about this:

Sorry to be a spoiler, but you sound like you are off your
meds. Or you are writing a SF book.
Any hardware would be obsolete in 10 years time. Think back
1000 years. Imagine making a self repairing shed to keep your
horse-driven cart nice and ready-to go. Assuming the shed had not been
bombed, set on fire, flooded, hit by lightning, a meteor, vandalized,
whatever, how useful would that cart be today ?

Some of the stuff we have that is from 1000 or more years ago
is still interesting, if not that useful.
 
Bernhard Kuemel said:
Rod Speed wrote
There is no way to store a frozen human in severa locations. Not
until their minds are scanned into digital form. If I'm in LN2 in
Australia and my body is destroyed by an earth quake, I'm lost.

Sure, but you have only now even mentioned a frozen human.

Its certainly possible to have an earthquake proof frozen human store.
Some of Jesus, Gandhi, John Lennon, Martin Luther King,
Hitler, Elvis, Einstein probably have enough fans who
would keep their body in shape and rivive them, if possible.

But none of those have managed to convince enough
of their fans to even attempt to do anything like that.

And it's a tad unlikely that YOU will be able to do that either.
 
Bernhard Kuemel said:
On Tue, 7 May 2013 06:25:46 +1000, "Rod Speed"


Perhaps you should ask yourself the same question. The original
question wasn't particularly clear or details. Why would anyone
bother asking only about preserving firmware? It seems more likely
that preserving petabytes of data would be more worthy of the effort.

It's about storing the human mind encoded in the human brain/body until
it can be scanned and transferred to an artificial
(electronic/optical/quantum/whatever) computer (see footnote [3] in the
OP). Maybe that's in the petabyte range. The human body needs to be
cooled with liquid nitrogen (LN2) for this purpose.

You don't know that storing them like that will allow that.
 
Concrete is mostly water and will eventually oxidize almost anything
inside.

That is not reasonably close. So very far in fact that i offer some
pointers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete

Notice Over 3 MB, watch the wrap;
http://www.petersenasphaltconferenc...rom the world of portland cement concrete.pdf

http://www.cement.org/basics/concretebasics_lessonfive.asp
So, what are you going to do? Include plans on how to build the
retrieval apparatus for someone to build after 1000 years. Do you
have a CK722 transistor handy?


The Egyptian desert is notable for having very low humidity. Desiccate
a body or a document in such an environment, and it will last almost
forever. The same cannot be said for other parts of the world with
higher humidity levels.


They most certainly did. Many of the hirglyphics and tablets found
deals with the administrative details of running a complex empire.
Bureaucracy was in full bloom. Haggling over prices was an art form
worth of recording for posterity. The ancient Egyptians weren't very
different from us today. Less technically able, but socially, quite
similar.

Excellent point.
 
On Tue, 7 May 2013 06:25:46 +1000, "Rod Speed"


Perhaps you should ask yourself the same question. The original
question wasn't particularly clear or details. Why would anyone
bother asking only about preserving firmware? It seems more likely
that preserving petabytes of data would be more worthy of the effort.

It's about storing the human mind encoded in the human brain/body until
it can be scanned and transferred to an artificial
(electronic/optical/quantum/whatever) computer (see footnote [3] in the
OP). Maybe that's in the petabyte range. The human body needs to be
cooled with liquid nitrogen (LN2) for this purpose. The machines
producing the LN2 need maintenence and part of the maintenence is
keeping firmware and operating systems of the machines.


Sounds more than a bit like the "Motie" "museums" from "A Mote in God's
Eye". The purpose of those was to give the next civilization that crawled
up from the "bronze age" or so a selection of technological level with
different corresponding issues; such as, how long before it blew itself
(wars) back to the bronze age, or how much it supported over breeding and
the resulting resource conflicts.

?-)
 
Sure, but you have only now even mentioned a frozen human.

I wrote it in footnote [3] at the bottom of the OP, referenced in the
first line. It's not very relevant for my question (1000 year storage of
firmware/operating systems), so I didn't want to distract from the
topic. But I mentioned it to be fair to those who didn't want to spend
their time on a project which is on the fringe of science fiction.
But none of those have managed to convince enough of their fans to even
attempt to do anything like that.
And it's a tad unlikely that YOU will be able to do that either.

Yeah, just a tad :).
 
Hi!

I'm planning a robotic facility [3] that needs to maintain hardware
(exchange defective parts) autonomously for up to 1000 years.

For whom?

Did you read footnote [3]. I want to be one of the frozen, scanned and
uploaded humans.
Who will care about *our* data in 1000 years?

Ötzi is about 5000 years old. It would be very amazing for a lot of
people to revive him. I hope the same will be true for me in 200 to 1000
years.
What do we know that they won't?

The past.
If you envision a collapse of civilization in the mean time, what is
the nature of the disruption that your facility must survive?
Nuclear war? Asteroid?

Nuclear war, economic/ecologic collapse. If an asteroid impact obscures
the sun too much for too long that might deplete my power/cooling
reserves and destroy my body/mind.
If civilization is in dire straights, why would they not cannibalize
the facility for whatever technology could be scavenged?

The idea is to make it in a remote location of an otherwise rather
stable country, e.g. in an Australian desert. The cryostorage could be
disguised as tomb and the black solar energy collecting walls could be
disguised as tombstones. A plaque/inscription could say they died of a
very deadly and contagious disease. Bacillus antracis can survive for
decades in the ground as dehydrated spores, so mentioning that might
deter some people. OTOH it might attract others, who want to use it as
weapon. Apart from stable walls I also think about active and passive
intruder defense systems such as high voltage discharges, high energy
microwaves, crushing, stabbing, shooting, nitrogen asphyxiation. We
could let some voluntarily donated human bodies and the killed intruders
rot after the first door, outside the first trap, where there is another
inscription telling the truth about the facility and its dangers.
If you want to protect the facility from the early sufferers of the
collapse, why do want to help their expected progeny, but not *them*?

I can hardly help the sufferers while I'm in cryo stasis. Well, I could
leave the facility open for everybody to use and take what they want,
but then I'd most likely die.
If the early sufferers are left to their decline, how do you know
there will *be* future progeny to help?

I trust that mankind will survive. I don't know. There is no knowledge.
Will the character of those who survived the attrition (or
elimination) of all others be better than those you tried to exclude
from the facility earlier?

I don't understand your question. What do you mean by attrition? Can you
rephrase your question more clearly?
Uncle Al: Conservation [including knowledge as a resource?] means
somebody else in the future deserves to consume it; and not them,
either.

If it is to be found by ET, they may be unimpressed. They know how to
travel between stars. Nothing in our 1000 year-old archive will help
them repair their warp drive.

Humans are impressed by the moon, mars and roman excavations, which can
not repair their vehicles. I think finding ETs is far more exciting than
watching Star Trek. ETs may be different, but I don't expect to be found
and uploaded by ETs.

Bernhard
 
There are enough religious relics scattered around the world to
rebuild multiple copies of Jesus and the cross. 3D scans and
reassembly as a computer model is quite possible, but access to the
relics is a political impossibility.

We might make 3D statues of Jesus, but not scan his mind and get it
working in a computer.
Einstein's brain may have been removed and preserved:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein's_brain>

His mind is lost, too.
 
The idea is to make it in a remote location of an otherwise rather
stable country, e.g. in an Australian desert. The cryostorage could be
disguised as tomb and the black solar energy collecting walls could be
disguised as tombstones.

The cryostore could be set in a mountain with the entrance and the black
solar energy collecting walls being on a steep flank of the mountain.
That would require a lot of effort and equipment to break in and steal
stuff.
 
Ok. I am _not_ an expert in concrete, but in a bit over 20 years of
working in transportation infrastructure (things like roads, bridges,
retaining walls) and related facilities i got exposed to a lot of very
knowledgeable people and learned a lot (i am an electrical engineer, not a
civil engineer). I do know the basic chemistry of concrete. The water
should almost be used up as a reactant in a fairly well balanced reaction.
There should be essentially no available water left when cured for a full
month.

However, many of the problems of eaten away rebar comes from allowing the
contractor to use excess water to make the mixture workable, often past
its proper "set" time. There are admixtures to control this. If you want
some light reading on the proportions in weight you can consult something
like Section 90 of:

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/esc/oe/specifications/std_specs/2010_StdSpecs/

There is more for specialty type concrete mixtures here:

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/esc/oe/specifications/SSPs/2010-SSPs/division_10/

I used California references since we both live in the state.

How much solid knowledge do you claim to have on concrete?

?-)
 
I beg to differ. There are many examples
of rebar rusting inside concrete structures.

Trivially avoidable.
The water is not in liquid form, but can easily disassociate
itself from the cement and produce corrosion effects.

Trivially avoidable.
Lots of other ways for concrete to deteriorate:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_degradation>

All readily avoidable.
That's a nice article on how to build a cement plant, not on the
longevity of concrete structures.

That's better. It demonstrates that water reacts with the various
cements to form the binding goo that holds it together. What it
doesn't talk about is that the water can easily disassociate itself
from the hardened cement and cause things to rust.

Trivially avoidable.
One way is heat.

So don't heat it.
Hit concrete with a welding torch and the steam produced will explode.
Another is surface evaporation, which can be easily demonstrated by
wrapping cured concrete in a clear plastic bag, and watching the water
droplets form on the inside.
<https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=concrete+rebar+rust>
However, concrete is the best and cheapest building material we
have available, so we have to live with the problems. Locally, we
have a Veterans Memorial Building built in 1918. The outer structure
is reinforced poured concrete. The rebar was sufficiently rusted that
the entire building required a million dollar retrofit. It would have
been cheaper to tear it down and start over, but it's listed as a
historical building, so that wasn't an option. That's 95 years useful
life for this concrete structure. In 1000 years, it would need to be
reworked or replaced 10 times.

No, there is some Roman concrete that has survived fine
for much longer than that, without having to do that.
Incidentally, if the Egyptians had built the pyramids with
reinforced concrete, they would all be a rubble pile today.

That is just plain wrong.
They didn't need rebar because they were smart enough to use their blocks
exclusively in compression, and almost totally avoided tension and
torsion.

They didn't use concrete, they used stone.
I rather prefer the Roman methods, one of which solved the problem
of how to find honest, able, and competent administrators.

But they did not solve the problem of how
to make the entire operation survive.
It didn't take much brilliance for them to figure out
that unless the bureaucracy offered an incentive,
able bureaucrats were not going to be forthcoming.

And their entire society imploded anyway.
Rather than offer a license to steal or throw money at the
problem as we're doing today, they had a different solution.

And their entire society imploded anyway.
They would search the countryside for successful heads of households,
that had done well for themselves in farming or commerce. This person
would receive what amounted to a draft notice from the emperor,
suggesting that he become director of some public works or function.
A small troop of soldiers would appear at his doorstep, drag him off
to Rome, and then stay at his farm for the duration of his service to
protect the family and property, but also to act as a threat that dire
things might happen to the family and property if he screwed up.

Wota great way to ensure that only the silliest people
would do well for themselves in farming and commerce.

No wonder their society imploded completely.
After a few years of service, he would return to the
farm, and continue life from where it was interrupted.
The only problem was that he couldn't really do too
good a job, or his position might become permanent.
Perhaps we could learn something for the Roman
example in running our modern bureaucracy.

Or maybe not when it imploded completely.
 
Bernhard Kuemel said:
Wally W. wrote
Bernhard Kuemel wrote
I'm planning a robotic facility [3] that needs to maintain hardware
(exchange defective parts) autonomously for up to 1000 years.
For whom?
Did you read footnote [3]. I want to be one of
the frozen, scanned and uploaded humans.
Who will care about *our* data in 1000 years?
Ötzi is about 5000 years old. It would be very
amazing for a lot of people to revive him.

Sure, but its not very likely to be possible.
I hope the same will be true for me in 200 to 1000 years.

I doubt it with 200, or even 1000.

They are more likely to do it with someone who has
managed a lot more than you have, like Einstein etc.
The past.

That's pretty well documented now. No need to try the
very difficult to achieve uploading of someone's brain etc.
Nuclear war, economic/ecologic collapse. If an asteroid impact
obscures the sun too much for too long that might deplete my
power/cooling reserves and destroy my body/mind.

But if it gets too bad, there may not be anyone too interested
in uploading what is between your ears, they may well be a bit
busy ensuring their own survival instead.

I doubt it.
The idea is to make it in a remote location of an otherwise rather
stable country, e.g. in an Australian desert. The cryostorage could
be disguised as tomb and the black solar energy collecting walls
could be disguised as tombstones.

Its very likely to be vandalised if you try that route.
A plaque/inscription could say they died
of a very deadly and contagious disease.

No one would buy that line with a place like Australia
because they know you would not be allowed to have
a tomb done like that there if it really was true.

The remains would have been cremated in a medical
facility instead.
Bacillus antracis can survive for decades in the ground as dehydrated
spores, so mentioning that might deter some people.

I doubt it except maybe those so stupid that they don't realise
that it wouldn't happen like that. There are certainly plenty of
those, but there are plenty more that wouldn't buy that claim.
OTOH it might attract others, who want to use it as weapon.

I don't believe that would happen.
Because they would realise it's a lie.
Apart from stable walls I also think about active and passive intruder
defense systems such as high voltage discharges, high energy
microwaves, crushing, stabbing, shooting, nitrogen asphyxiation.

That's completely illegal in Australia and everywhere
else that's even just barely politically stable too.
We could let some voluntarily donated human bodies
and the killed intruders rot after the first door,

That's completely illegal in Australia and everywhere
else that's even just barely politically stable too.
outside the first trap, where there is another inscription
telling the truth about the facility and its dangers.

If anyone did break in and find the corpses, you can be
sure that the word would get out very quickly indeed
and that the authoritys would be round to work out
who had flouted the law so comprehensively and
they would try to work out who had done that and
would eventually dismantle the entire affair and
just dump your body into a public grave once no
one claimed your corpse.

They would certainly realise that your claim
about the unspeakable disease was a lie and
would be able to check if it was someone who
had managed to do what you claimed etc.
I can hardly help the sufferers while I'm in cryo stasis.
Well, I could leave the facility open for everybody to
use and take what they want, but then I'd most likely die.
I trust that mankind will survive.

And the worst result if it doesn't is no worse than
not doing anything except your heirs didn't get
to spend what you wasted on that facility.
I don't know. There is no knowledge.

There is plenty of knowledge that mankind has never even
come close to not surviving over countless millennia now.

Sure, we have certainly invented some stuff since then
which might be a problem, but even nukes wouldn't
result in no mankind at all, even if we are actually
stupid enough to fire them all at each other.
I don't understand your question. What do you mean by
attrition? Can you rephrase your question more clearly?
Uncle Al: Conservation [including knowledge as a resource?]
means somebody else in the future deserves to consume it;
and not them, either.
If it is to be found by ET, they may be unimpressed. They
know how to travel between stars. Nothing in our 1000
year-old archive will help them repair their warp drive.
Humans are impressed by the moon, mars and roman excavations,
which can not repair their vehicles. I think finding ETs is far more
exciting than watching Star Trek. ETs may be different, but I don't
expect to be found and uploaded by ETs.

I don't expect any ETs to show up myself. They've had
plenty of time to do that and presumably it isnt possible.

Tho I spose some red indians might have run the same line
at one time too.
 
Jeff Liebermann said:
Never mind. Bad idea.
However, I think we're on the right track. The trick to 1000 year
of uninterrupted maintenance may be in the religious model.

I doubt it. So many of those have vanished with just a
few bits of evidence that they ever existed. Presumably
vastly more vanished and left no evidence of their
existence at all, particularly back in the days when no
one had yet invented any way to write anything down
and it was all oral and died with the last devotee etc.
Instead of an army of scientists and engineers in white
lab coats to maintain the self-maintaining machinery,
a full featured religion or light weight cult might work.

Even the ones that have survived for 1000s of years have
changed pretty radically on the basics over that time.

Even the jews, one of the most stable religions over time,
no longer stone anyone to death, or even sacrifice animals
anymore.
The severed heads would be sequestered
in the temple of the Half Living Dead.

Most of them just keep the whole corpse instead.

A few eat the corpses and got some real downsides
like Kuru when they invented that sort of recycling.
Once a year, on the winter solstice, the priesthood, disciples,
apostles, tribal leaders, supporters, androids, investors, tourists,
and news media gather to participate in the Rite of the Partial
Resurrection.

Roman Catholics do that every week and some every day.
At the appointed hour, a simulation of resurrecting the
severed heads is performed stopping just short of total
thawing. The purpose is only to test the mechanisms, and
determine if it would be possible to perform a resurrection.
After the ceremony, the tribe in charge of maintaining the
machinery performs a ritual debriefing in preparation for the
repair or replacement of any components deemed necessary.
Vistors are encouraged to leave offerings of obsolete modules,
components, and spare parts. Following the repair ceremony,
the building is again sealed for another year, awaiting the next
annual Rite of Partial Resurrection.

And then some loon decides that he's sick of all that rigmarole,
like some jew did with stoning people to death and presumably
another did with animal sacrifices and proclaims that he's the
son of some god or other and the more gullible of your adherents
all decide that the sun does actually shine out of his arse and they
all give up on your corpse and your system is left to fail and you
thaw out. I think a fully autonomous system has more future myself.
Of course, the entire procedure must be documented in excruciating
detail to avoid politically or monetarily inspired dogma drift.

Didn't work for the jews, they got the dogma drift anyway.

So did every other religion that tried that route too.
While creative interpretation of such scripture is inevitable,
at least demanding that it be distributed in its original
unchanged form will slow down the process.

It didn't with the jews, or any other religion that tried that approach.

Even burning those who dared to try even a
shred of dogma drift at the stake didn't help.
With luck, the Book of Procedures will last 1000 years
without a major loss in purpose and understanding.

Have fun listing even a single religion that managed that
with the sort of ritual you want to keep your corpse frozen.
So as to not overload the Book of Procedures, there will also need
to be a Book of Components, Book of Calculations, Book of Second
Sources, Book of the Accelerated Life Test, Book of QA, and so on.
As components are added and changed, these books can be more
easily revised than the unchangeable Book of Procedures.
With a little creative accounting, the Order of the Dead Heads might
become a tax exempt religious order and/or a 501c(3) organization.
This will allow contributors to deduct their contributions to the
order which should help with the financial requirements.

Can't see the Australian govt buying that line any time soon.
I hope this helps and gives you some ideas.

What are you going to do if he just hangs himself
and organises the video to be posted on youtube ?
 
The cryostore could be set in a mountain

There aren't any mountains in the Australian desert.
with the entrance and the black solar energy collecting
walls being on a steep flank of the mountain.

There are some cliff faces, but the shit will hit the fan very
spectacularly indeed if you start hacking holes in those for
your cryo facility.
That would require a lot of effort and
equipment to break in and steal stuff.

And a hell of a lot of effort to construct
and to deal with the legal ramifications
when someone notices you constructing it.

It will be off to jail for you.

You cant even do that even if you own the cliff face.
 
Jeff Liebermann said:
Ok. That's for fairly new concrete. However, after time and mother
nature attack, the failure modes itemized here begins:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_degradation>
I live near the ocean and see quite a bit of rust and cracks under the
older bridges while hiking.

That's trivially avoidable if you want to avoid that.

Just don't bother with reinforced concrete for starters.
1000 pages. Not today please. Thanks for the pointers but I'm just
not that interested in concrete technology and have other things I
need to read.


Nearly none.

That's obvious.
 
Ok. That's for fairly new concrete. However, after time and mother
nature attack, the failure modes itemized here begins:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concrete_degradation>
I live near the ocean and see quite a bit of rust and cracks under the
older bridges while hiking.

I have seen plenty a well. Salt air is really hard on concrete (mostly
from the chlorine ions). Plus only recently (~ 30 to 40 years ago) have
we learned to use epoxy coated rebar in such applications. This is one of
the reasons that seawalls become maintenance problems in 40 years or so.
1000 pages. Not today please. Thanks for the pointers but I'm just
not that interested in concrete technology and have other things I
need to read.

Section 90 is only a small part of it, say about 45 pages. Section 86 is
much larger at around 160 pages and may be of slightly more interest.
Nearly none. I had some exposure in college in a strength of
materials class. I've built 2 speculation houses, both of which had
poured concrete foundations. However, those were done by contractor
and the concrete delivered by the local concrete truck (who shorted me
about 1/2 yard both times). I also put a foundation under my house,
which involved some understanding of concrete and rebar. Because we
did it in winter, and the concrete pumper didn't want to risk getting
stuck on my muddy dirt road. So, it was done by hauling all the sand,
rocks, and cement up the hill on a conveyor, and doing the mix in two
rented mixers. To get it right, I carefully measured the ingredients
and did slump tests. No problems.

So you are similar grade of better than an idiot as me.
 
California has seismic safety rules which effectively ban unreinforced
masonry construction.

He doesn't want to do his cryo facility in California.
None of the buildings, monuments, and tombs that have survived over
1000 years will comply with modern building and seismic codes.

That is just plain wrong with the best of the stone buildings.

Its perfectly possible do comply with modern building
and seismic codes if you want to go that route.

The egyptian pyramids comply with modern building and seismic codes.

So do those dry stone structures in south america.
http://media-cache-ec3.pinimg.com/192x/69/7a/2e/697a2e6ab657ec30a975fad1aef74ef1.jpg
Like it or not, the facility will likely be constructed from reinforced
concrete,

That's just plain wrong with stone alone.
unless you find rammed earth and straw bale construction to be suitable.

That isnt the only possibility.
Building with unreinforced masonry
implies an all compression structure.

That's just plain wrong too.
Nothing in tension, which would require rebar.

That's just plain wrong too.
A large block structure, such as the Egyptian pyramids, could
possibly be engineered to meet modern US code requirements.

He doesn't even plan to build it in the US.
Large interlocking blocks could be made to survive 2g earthquake forces.

Yep, those south american dry stone walls have survived fine.
http://media-cache-ec3.pinimg.com/192x/69/7a/2e/697a2e6ab657ec30a975fad1aef74ef1.jpg

So have the later egyptian pyramids too.
(Christchurch was 2.2g peak).

Completely trivial to avoid building it in an area like that.
It might look like a Lego building,

Doesn't have to.
but it should hold together in an earthquake.

Yep, those south american dry stone walls have survived fine.
http://media-cache-ec3.pinimg.com/192x/69/7a/2e/697a2e6ab657ec30a975fad1aef74ef1.jpg
Excessive dead load will be a problem if it's not built on dry sand,

Bullshit. Those south american dry stone walls have survived fine.
http://media-cache-ec3.pinimg.com/192x/69/7a/2e/697a2e6ab657ec30a975fad1aef74ef1.jpg
which nicely distributes the weight load. The usable interior space in
a pyramid is significantly less than in a more conventional building.

Sure, but it does ensure that it will survive 1000 years fine.
If you make the walls thick enough, and are not bothered by CC&R aesthetic
requirements, then surface weathering should not be a consideration.

Yep, we know it isnt with those south american dry stone walls. All you
have to do is choose the right stone and where you put the building.

He wants to do it in the australian desert and they would survive fine
there.

No problem with modern building and seismic codes either,
you can do what you like on your own property there.
 
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