XP OEM - Interesting conversation with MS employee

[kurttrail]

Bruce has "character" and is 100% honest!

This is like having OJ say that Tony Blake is "100% not guilty" too!

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

 

[kurttrail]

It had as much place as a statement about a conversation with a
contractor that does PA without any real knowledge of licensing rules
or documents for the product they are activating.

I never claimed it was worth anything to anyone, it's just as good an
information source as you provide.

Since MS doesn't support OEM software and it is up to the OEM to support
MS software, it is only logical that it is up to the OEM to determine
when they'll stop support the software after upgrading the hardware.
Since I am my own OEM, my computer is never not my computer, no matter
how much I upgrade it.

I don't WANT OR NEED to have MS tell me what is right and wrong with my
copy of software on my hardware! They have absolutely no right to know
what I do in the privacy of MY home!


A lilly-livered sycophantic yes-man like you NEEDS some Authority-Figure
to tell you how to conform, and when to bend over and spread your
cheeks!

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

 

[VWWall]

No, that's no "retreat." That's what the official policy, as stated
by Microsoft employees, has always been.

If I buy a keyboard with my OEM WinXP Pro x64, as one purveyor has been
offering, can I change anything on the original computer on which I
installed the OS as long as I use the same keyboard?

Even stranger is the fact that the keyboard is not even included in the
hash function used to indicate a change in OS installation.

Am I missing something here?

 

[T. Waters]

Sorry, Bruce, for sounding insulting. In my mind, you sounded like some
orthodox practioners of religion I know.
I guess it is just a question of priorities. For me, it is infinitely more
important that people wash their hands after using the restroom than that
they abide by the OEM rules in the MS EULA., and I mean this seriously.

 

[T. Waters]

If I buy a keyboard with my OEM WinXP Pro x64, as one purveyor has
been offering, can I change anything on the original computer on
which I installed the OS as long as I use the same keyboard?

Even stranger is the fact that the keyboard is not even included in
the hash function used to indicate a change in OS installation.

Am I missing something here?

Virg, the keyboard has nothing to do with it.
The consensus within this group leans towards the power cord as the
irreducible essence of a "computer." (;-)

 

[Leythos]

If I buy a keyboard with my OEM WinXP Pro x64, as one purveyor has been
offering, can I change anything on the original computer on which I
installed the OS as long as I use the same keyboard?

The vendor I purchase OEM software through sells all MS OEM products and
only requires a hardware purchase, a MS Mouse is about $14, so it's
cheap enough to not really count.

 

[kurttrail]

If I buy a keyboard with my OEM WinXP Pro x64, as one purveyor has
been offering, can I change anything on the original computer on
which I installed the OS as long as I use the same keyboard?

Even stranger is the fact that the keyboard is not even included in
the hash function used to indicate a change in OS installation.

Am I missing something here?

Yeah, your are expecting sh*t about software licensing to be logical,
and it is as logical as software companies complaing about software
piracy when the piracy rate is lower now than it was before almost every
home had a computer, in 1994

Actually since MS introduced copy-protection in 2000 with MSO2KSP1, the
piracy rate stopped its steady downward trend.

The Business Software Alliance Global Software Piracy Rate:

1994 1995 1996 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003*
49 46 43 40 38 36 37 40 39 36

* - 1st year using IDC methodology.

See the piracy rate had been declining since 1994 as more and more PCs
were sold to people for Home Use. And since MS first introduce PA the
piracy rate has been fluctuating up & down. For calculating the piracy
rate in 2003, the BSA changed its methodology, so that drop is a result
of the change. Mike Newton, campaigns relations manager for the BSA, at
the time of the release of that year's report said, "Right now we feel
that piracy rates are on the up."

PA isn't about PIRACY and never has been. It is about behavior
modification and getting you to accept the bogus rules of soul-less
corporate software copyright owners in the privacy of your home!

While the EULA is a perfectly acceptable commercial use license, it has
NEVER been proven to also be a legally enforceable private use licence.
And so all these rules, policies and copy protection is about anything
except FUDing the individual consumer into believeing that the corporate
elite words are the law, without actually having to prove it!

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

 

[VWWall]

Virg, the keyboard has nothing to do with it.
The consensus within this group leans towards the power cord as the
irreducible essence of a "computer." (;-)

I did not find anyone offering WinXP Pro x64 with just a power cord. I
have so many of them it would be hard keeping track which was the
original one allowed by the EULA. Maybe attach the COA to it?

 

[Bruce Chambers]

Sorry, Bruce, for sounding insulting.

Accepted.


In my mind, you sounded like some
orthodox practioners of religion I know.

For my clarification then, and so as to avoid such a misunderstanding
in the future, could you tell me just how I "sounded" hypocritical?
Surely the desire for integrity in one's business partners and other -
even social - associates isn't dependent upon superstition.

I guess it is just a question of priorities. For me, it is infinitely more
important that people wash their hands after using the restroom than that
they abide by the OEM rules in the MS EULA., and I mean this seriously.

Not to discount your perfectly valid concern for sanitation and
personal hygiene, does this mean that you don't care when people lie to
you or break their promises to you? Set aside the subject of a
Microsoft EULA - this comes down to basic honesty, period. It doesn't
matter to whom a promise is made, with whom an agreement or contract is
made, or what specifics the promise, agreement , or contract concerns.
A broken promise is a broken promise. I don't see how a person who
reneges on an agreement to anyone else - even an "anonymous" corporate
entity - can be trusted to keep one with me; the reneger (is that a
word?) has clearly and irrefutably demonstrated his untrustworthiness.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:



You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
both at once. - RAH

 

[kony]

So, if I were a registered OEM, having agreed to the OEM agreements, you
are saying that I should ignore the documents on the OEM site that I've
already read concerning the definitions of terms before I sign my OEM
agreement?

No, why would you assime I'm saying that?

I'm saying those "documents on the OEM site that I've
already read... before I sign" are all there is. You cannot
have MS (nor youself) further elaborate them in scope or
terms after that contract is made.

Dude, you missed my point, I never suggested that anyone was bound by
the clarification, only informed by it, not bound by it - come down off
the soap-box.

What you wrote could be misconstrued. I clarified my
opinion on it, and what I believe to be the legality
involved as well. If the EULA doesn't specify
"motherboard", MS can't later come back and claim it does.
on the other hand, if the EULA claims use of one OEM system,
one can't replace it all and then claim it's the same one
OEM system either after all but a power cord has been
changed.

 

[kony]

I'm not taking sides, it seemed it would be good, legal or not, to get
an official MS stated position that could be references as FROM A MS
Legal department.

No more good than MS getting an official statement from your
"legal department". Believe it or not I'm not trying to be
mundane or argumentative here, it's simply that one CANNOT
refer to the other party in a contract for what THEY deem a
contact to "mean" after they wrote it and further that point
in time of sale has passed. Their interpretation of it
after the fact is no more valid than anyone else's,
specifically a court's if we want to nit-pick.

I actually don't care one way or the other if anyone does anything,
really, I don't care, I quit caring about 5 months ago. I also don't
make any attempt to sway anyone into thinking one way or another. I have
only mentioned what I've read on the MS site, seen in posted (web) MS
documents, and how I handle it myself.

I can appreciate that and I'm not necessarily trying to
convince you otherwise, but for the benefit of others it is
good to make it known that there is nothing that contacting
MS can do for them. What is not "clear" in a contact cannot
later be pointed out by one of the two parties involved and
be binding on the other.

Since I don't care how you handle it, or Kurt or Alias, and since I'm
only presenting that MS has documents that clarify their position on the
OEM site, there is no argument to be entered into - you can do what you
want.

I agree that in some circumstances those docs may cover
current licensing, when they're referred to in that license
agreement. I was never referred to those and I don't know
anyone who was when talking about single-OEM-system license.

 

[NoStop]

If I buy a keyboard with my OEM WinXP Pro x64, as one purveyor has been
offering, can I change anything on the original computer on which I
installed the OS as long as I use the same keyboard?

Even stranger is the fact that the keyboard is not even included in the
hash function used to indicate a change in OS installation.

Am I missing something here?

You just aren't understanding the bullsh*t marketing muscle of Big Brother
MickeyMouse. I've seen retailers allowing you to purchase OEM XP by simply
buying a case fan. Of course, when the case fan fails, you have to go and
purchase another copy of OEM XP I guess? Now you know why Bill Gates is the
richest man in the world.

--

ø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°øø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°ø
Windows is *NOT* a virus. Viruses are small and efficient.
A brief overview of Windows' most serious design flaws
http://www.euronet.nl/users/frankvw/rants/microsoft/IhateMS_A.html

 

[kony]

What's "simplistic" about it? In this situation, the purchaser of the
OEM license agrees to abide by the terms of the EULA,

At this point you're making a giant leap.
How many people do you know that reviewed and accepted the
EULA before there was any penalty involved in declining it?

Is that EULA even stated on the outside of the packing?
Myself and many others are aware of the need to review these
EULAs, but the average OEM system purchaser- I highly doubt
they agree to anything ahead of purchase time, except to pay
X amount for Y system.

That's not necessarily pointing blame at MS, nor the
customer, rather there is not a standardized mechanism in
place for acceptance of softwrae EULAs and a decline of that
EULA before the customer enters into the sale agreement.
Only prior customers buying same thing a second time may be
fully aware of the EULA, IF they can assume it hasn't
changed.

and then
subsequently reneges on his agreement and installs the OEM license
elsewhere.

I feel the average person does know this can't be done, that
their license is meant for one system only. They may not
realize it can't be transferred to another system though,
until they research it. This is part of the core problem,
that they weren't fully informed of this PRIOR to the sale.

This indicates quite clearly that this person's given word,
or signature on a contract, for that matter, cannot be trusted.

When did they give their word or sign the EULA?
I agree more than a little bit with your concept but in it's
application it's not a valid argument.

If
he'll break the agreement to abide by the EULA, he cannot be trusted not
to break any other agreements.

Nonsense.
Somewhere there's somone who doesn't like some particular
thing _you_ do, and could make similar excuse for hassling
you... and it's just an excuse, people are still innocent
until proven guilty, and guilty of only that which they've
done, not that which you "assume" they might do because you
argue it into being some "remotely similar" thing.

 

[NoStop]

I did not find anyone offering WinXP Pro x64 with just a power cord. I
have so many of them it would be hard keeping track which was the
original one allowed by the EULA. Maybe attach the COA to it?

It's the power code that has a phone connection on the end of it, so that it
can phone home whenever it's replugged in and get activated again.

--

ø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°øø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°ø
Windows is *NOT* a virus. Viruses are small and efficient.
A brief overview of Windows' most serious design flaws
http://www.euronet.nl/users/frankvw/rants/microsoft/IhateMS_A.html

 

[NoStop]

Since MS doesn't support OEM software and it is up to the OEM to support
MS software, it is only logical that it is up to the OEM to determine
when they'll stop support the software after upgrading the hardware.
Since I am my own OEM, my computer is never not my computer, no matter
how much I upgrade it.

I don't WANT OR NEED to have MS tell me what is right and wrong with my
copy of software on my hardware! They have absolutely no right to know
what I do in the privacy of MY home!

Yabut, remember when MickeyMouse made you agree to a new EULA when you
picked up a security patch? I don't imagine very many users read that sh*t
everytime a new patch or SP comes out, but be warned. It has happened and
will probably continue to happen. When MickeyMouse is finished with you,
you will have signed away ALL PRIVACY on your system to them. If you've got
your computer updated to the latest security patch, you've already given
MickeyMouse admin privileges to your box.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/06/30/ms_security_patch_eula_gives/



--

ø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°øø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°ø
Windows is *NOT* a virus. Viruses are small and efficient.
A brief overview of Windows' most serious design flaws
http://www.euronet.nl/users/frankvw/rants/microsoft/IhateMS_A.html

 

[Guest]

Last night I upgraded a customers machine with new motherboard, cpu, memory,
video card, netcard and soundcard. The only thing that was the same was the
HDD, dvd drive, tape backup and scsi card. I was having trouble with the
internet so I phoned MS to activate XP again. After it activated I asked him
what the limit is to hardware change before XP won't activate. He said that
XP oem has to always remain on the same PC to be activated. In return I
asked "what constitutes the same PC?". He kept going around in circles and
not answering my question and just stating that it has to always remain on
the same PC. He never gave me a definition of what "same PC" means. In the
end I asked if it was more of a policy than a technical limitation and he
said "thank you for calling microsoft to activate your software" and hung
up!

I suspect that means that it can be installed on a completely new machine
and will activate ok. Is that true?

Hello, Had one experience with "activation". Purchased a unit from a company
that builds individual units. Due to a shipping problem the video card was
unseated. The card was replaced. Five months later had several problems
related to damaged done by the video card. I removed the HD's and returned
unit. The company decided to replace: motherboard, video card, memory, sound
card, cpu, and modem. I asked about "activation" they asked me to wait until
on-line to find out if it is needed. They had replace everything except the
modem and memory with new warranty replacements" same make and model" have
new boxes and registration numbers. The memory was same amount different size
modules. When on-line was informed that activatation not needed only modem
was listed as changed. The HD's (2), DVD burners(2) and power supply not
changed. Must be graduations in "activation" concerning make and model of
replaced items.
Interesting conversation.
Take Care.
beamish.

 

[Michael C]

What's "simplistic" about it? In this situation, the purchaser of the OEM
license agrees to abide by the terms of the EULA, and then subsequently
reneges on his agreement and installs the OEM license elsewhere. This
indicates quite clearly that this person's given word, or signature on a
contract, for that matter, cannot be trusted. If he'll break the
agreement to abide by the EULA, he cannot be trusted not to break any
other agreements.

People don't want that degree of honesty. Most would never hire a 100%
honest tax agent, lawer, employee, whatever. They want someone who can bend
the rules just enough.

Michael

 

[NoStop]

You still talk about the motherboard fantasy as it it is part of the
EULA.

IT IS NOT A PART OF THE EULA! It is only binding on you in your
delusions!

NOT ONE END USER EVER AGREED TO IT!

MS'S MOTHERBOARD NONSENSE HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY
AGREEMENT!

You can play lawyer all you want, but the reality is that 'dems with the
bucks make the rules. You want to take MickeyMouse on legally? Good luck!
Even the DOJ couldn't sustain a real challenge to MickeyMouse's illegal
activities. Gates has a war chest in the hundreds of millions of dollars to
do whatever he wants in the legal arena. It's just like the RIAA, when they
decide to slam a file sharer, most just cave in and settle out of court.

The reality is, MickeyMouse can determine what it considers significant
enough hardware changes to prevent a re-activation of the OS and thus force
the end-user to purchase a new license. So EULA at the end doesn't mean
squat. If you want to continue to be a slave of MickeyMouse you are forced
to play by MickeyMouse's rules. That's always the way it's been with MS and
always will be. Get over it! When you get fed up enough, you do have other
options.

Don't know whether you ever read chapter 7, but maybe you should ...

http://www.euronet.nl/users/frankvw/rants/microsoft/IhateMS_7.html

"Microsoft doesn't care where you want to go today. You'll go wherever
Microsoft tells you to go, period."

--

ø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°øø¤º°`°ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°ø
Windows is *NOT* a virus. Viruses are small and efficient.
A brief overview of Windows' most serious design flaws
http://www.euronet.nl/users/frankvw/rants/microsoft/IhateMS_A.html

 

[kurttrail]

Yabut, remember when MickeyMouse made you agree to a new EULA when you
picked up a security patch? I don't imagine very many users read that
sh*t everytime a new patch or SP comes out, but be warned. It has
happened and will probably continue to happen. When MickeyMouse is
finished with you, you will have signed away ALL PRIVACY on your
system to them. If you've got your computer updated to the latest
security patch, you've already given MickeyMouse admin privileges to
your box.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2002/06/30/ms_security_patch_eula_gives/

LOL! Like MS is gonna sue me! They've had thirteen years to sue an
individual over their One Computer EULA term, and have yet to prove that
term is enforceable over an individuals right to "fair use." MS is all
FUD, deception, smoke & mirrors, and outright lies, when it comes to
them backing up the bullsh*t by legal means when it comes to private
non-commercial use.

--
Peace!
Kurt
Self-anointed Moderator
microscum.pubic.windowsexp.gonorrhea
http://microscum.com/mscommunity
"Trustworthy Computing" is only another example of an Oxymoron!
"Produkt-Aktivierung macht frei"

 

[Kerry Brown]

Not that I want to get into this again, but if you go into the OEM site
at MS, read around the documents, it seemed very clear to me that the
OEM software is tied to the first computer it's installed on, and that
the computer, by MS's documents on the OEM site, indicate that the
Motherboard is the "computer".

When I, as a personal choice, choose OEM, I limit the scope of the
license to the motherboard.

I was at recent MS OEM event and attended a session on licensing. The
speaker was very clear that Microsoft's position was that changing the
motherboard was not allowed as it defines the computer. She even said that
in the near future activations will reflect this. Changing a motherboard
will only be allowed under warranty and will always cause a phone in event.
Later on she was asked about selling OEM software with qualifying hardware
what qualified? She said anything that was essential to running a computer.
She elaborated that that meant anything within the case, even a ram chip,
and also a keyboard and mouse. Does anyone else see the inconsistency here?
If someone from the licensing dept. is inconsistent when trying to explain
to the mostly converted how is anyone supposed to make sense of it. My
interpretation of the EULA is OEM software stays with the computer. If it's
upgraded in any fashion over time it's within the EULA. If the computer is
sold, given away, or somehow still in use and a new one is purchased then
it's time for a new license.

Kerry