Which trackball to go with

M

MWarner

I love my new IBM Thinkpad and like the fact I can use either a
trackpad or the pointer/erase type cursor but still I find these hard
to use most of the time. I did buy a optical mouse blue which is the
same as what I use at home. I find this makes my laptop very easy to
use (except for the keyboard which I discussed in another msg) but
stilll most of the time I'm happy with it's keyboard but the pointer
is the most important item to replace.
Most of the time I just don't have room for a mouse and the only other
input device I can think of is a trackball. I have looked some at
logitech but two items I am interested in by microsoft are the
trackball explorer and the trackball optical. I am wondering over
heavy use which is more comfortable? In a way I would think the
trackball explorer would be the most comfortable. It seems with the
optical the thumb would get sore from moving the ball. yet with the
optical it seems harder to reach the buttons and with teh explorer it
seems that moving the ball with the palm of your hand or as some
peopel have told me is best, the 4 fingers, is more comfortable.
 
M

MWarner

I forgot to add this but I also have looked at the Logitech Trackman
Wheel Optical a lot as well as the Logitech Optical Marble Mouse. I
would like any opinion on those
 
J

John McGaw

MWarner said:
I forgot to add this but I also have looked at the Logitech Trackman
Wheel Optical a lot as well as the Logitech Optical Marble Mouse. I
would like any opinion on those
I absolutely can't do without my Trackman Wheel -- have two of them in fact
as well as its wheel-less predecessor. It causes me absolutely no hand or
wrist strain as opposed to any mouse I've tried. And the control I achieve
is near perfect. Only gripe I can think of is that stuffing it in my
notebook carrying case causes a big lump and the cord gets tangled with the
rest of the junk I carry. But given the state of the art I won't consider
going wireless and trading a minor inconvenience for the cost of stuffing
batteries into a cordless or having a rechargeable go dead at an inopportune
moment does no appeal.
 
V

*Vanguard*

The problem I have is finding a symmetrical trackball. There are some
but many are right-hand oriented. Also, way too many have you use your
thumb. Your thumb doesn't have the granularity in muscle to move a
delicately or accurately as your fingers. When was the last time you
saw someone writing in the sand with their thumb (provided they had
perfectly working fingers)? And obviously a thumb-operated trackball is
asymmetrically shaped based on which hand is used (and all seem geared
to the right hand).

I am right-handed. However, I hate having to hover my arm over past the
lopsided right end of the keyboard to reach the pointing device. On the
rightside you have the arrow and nav pads and then the numpad, so where
your arms are positioned on the keyboard results in a longer reach to
the right than to the left. However, trying to find lefty mice or
trackballs is a near impossibility, so I have to settle for
symmetrically shaped devices, plus if it is cordless then other users
can simply plop it on the right side of the keyboard where they may be
used to using it (although they'll then have to use the Mouse applet to
swap the buttons).

I don't like the Logitech trackballs because they have too much friction
for the ball. Their use of rubberized rollers and/or friction roller
pins instead of ball bearings make a definite increase in resistance to
rolling the ball. With the Kensington Expert Mouse trackball, it's
heavier ball (for more inertia and better feel and feedback), and ball
bearing rollers, I can spin the ball for those times when I want to zoom
across the screen instead of having to move, lift, move, lift, and
repeat to get the mouse over there. While not such a big deal for the
desktop, it's great in games to spin the ball to continual movement
between when your fingers can reposition themselves rather than the
fatigue of having to use your pinky to squeeze the mouse when repeatedly
having to lift it to reposition it. With the Kensignton, you also have
a easy replacement of the ball should the kids decide to steal it for
play and it gets lost or severely scarred. Just visit a local pool
table store and get a snooker ball. It's the same size (or, at least,
it was when I last had a Kensington Expert Mouse).

Alas, the high quality trackballs are very expensive. When my
Kensington got damaged, I got the symmetrically shaped Logitech cordless
optical mouse. I had the resistance from the "tail" (for corded mice).
The only things I disliked about the Kensington Expert Mouse trackball
were:

- There was tendency for the ball to lift off the rollers along one of
the diagonal directions when you tried to spin it. That's because there
are only 2 rollers (for position sensing) and a small plastic roller (to
provide the offside support from the rollers). The weight of the wheel
helped to compensate a bit, especially when compared against other
trackballs with much lighter balls.

- I didn't like the button placement on the base. I felt the buttons
were too far back so I had to curl my fingers too much. Even with the
4-button trackback, their division was at the middle of the ball instead
of forward to match your fingers. I don't have long fingers. However,
it was far less fatigue on my fingers in having to curl slightly back
for the primary buttons, or having to move my hand back a bit which took
it off the base as a wrist rest (so I got a gel rest for support), than
the fatigue I experience after a really long day of continual computer
usage where I have to pinch the mouse with my pinkie (the weakest
finger) in order to repeatedly lift and reposition the mouse.

I occasionally check around for a trackball to go back to and get rid of
my mouse, but the $100 price tag for the Kensington's puts me off. I'm
talking about the Expert version that looks like beige ceramic and has
ball bearing rollers. They have a cheapy Turbo trackball that doesn't
have ball bearings, has rubberized rollers, and definitely has greater
resistance to rolling and so it doesn't spin hardly at all (unles you
whack the hell out of it rather than just flick it with your fingers).
Their wired Expert Mouse costs $79 and up. The wireless version costs
$100 and up. Definitely not cheap. What worries me is that their
descriptions of their latest black-colored Expert Mouse do not mention
the use of stainless steel ball bearing rollers which lowered resistance
and made the ball smooth to move (which the description for their older
white version of the Expert Mouse still mentions).
 
K

kony

I don't like the Logitech trackballs because they have too much friction
for the ball. Their use of rubberized rollers and/or friction roller
pins instead of ball bearings make a definite increase in resistance to
rolling the ball.
- There was tendency for the ball to lift off the rollers along one of
the diagonal directions when you tried to spin it. That's because there
are only 2 rollers (for position sensing) and a small plastic roller (to
provide the offside support from the rollers). The weight of the wheel
helped to compensate a bit, especially when compared against other
trackballs with much lighter balls.

I don't know about *all* models/revisions of Logitech Optical Marble
Mouse, but I have one that does only use ball-bearings, looks like:
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/products/details/US/EN,CRID=6,CONTENTID=5003

However, no scroll wheel on it, one of it's major downfalls IMO since I
prefer to wheel-scroll.
 
R

Rudge

Mice are stone age devices.

My Trackman Marble Wheel has been reliable for several years. I quickly got
used to controlling the cursor by using my thumb.
P.S....... and you can have a cluttered desk as well.
 
A

Andy

I love my new IBM Thinkpad and like the fact I can use either a
trackpad or the pointer/erase type cursor but still I find these hard
to use most of the time. I did buy a optical mouse blue which is the
same as what I use at home. I find this makes my laptop very easy to
use (except for the keyboard which I discussed in another msg) but
stilll most of the time I'm happy with it's keyboard but the pointer
is the most important item to replace.
Most of the time I just don't have room for a mouse and the only other
input device I can think of is a trackball. I have looked some at
logitech but two items I am interested in by microsoft are the
trackball explorer and the trackball optical. I am wondering over
heavy use which is more comfortable? In a way I would think the
trackball explorer would be the most comfortable. It seems with the
optical the thumb would get sore from moving the ball. yet with the
optical it seems harder to reach the buttons and with teh explorer it
seems that moving the ball with the palm of your hand or as some
peopel have told me is best, the 4 fingers, is more comfortable.

I currently use the Trackball Optical. I don't have any problem with
my thumb getting sore. Rather I find it harder to finely control the
horizontal movement of the pointer using my thumb compared to a
trackball that lets me use my fingers or palm. I use the scroll wheel
button as Shift, so I can do a lot of stuff with only one hand. Prior
to the Trackball Optical I used an Intellimouse Trackball, but got
tired of having to regularly clean the rollers. A trackball that I
really liked was a Microspeed that had a very large ball that could be
easily controlled with the palm.
 
G

Graham

The problem I have is finding a symmetrical trackball. There are some
but many are right-hand oriented. Also, way too many have you use your
thumb. Your thumb doesn't have the granularity in muscle to move a
delicately or accurately as your fingers. When was the last time you
saw someone writing in the sand with their thumb (provided they had
perfectly working fingers)? And obviously a thumb-operated trackball is
asymmetrically shaped based on which hand is used (and all seem geared
to the right hand).

I am right-handed. However, I hate having to hover my arm over past the
lopsided right end of the keyboard to reach the pointing device. On the
rightside you have the arrow and nav pads and then the numpad, so where
your arms are positioned on the keyboard results in a longer reach to
the right than to the left. However, trying to find lefty mice or
trackballs is a near impossibility, so I have to settle for
symmetrically shaped devices, plus if it is cordless then other users
can simply plop it on the right side of the keyboard where they may be
used to using it (although they'll then have to use the Mouse applet to
swap the buttons).

I don't like the Logitech trackballs because they have too much friction
for the ball. Their use of rubberized rollers and/or friction roller
pins instead of ball bearings make a definite increase in resistance to
rolling the ball. With the Kensington Expert Mouse trackball, it's
VBIG snip
I've got a thumb operated Logitech marble with scroll wheel which I
think is fine. Easy to operate, you soon get use to using the thumb
and its just as accurate as using the fingers. I've got a symmetrical
trackball which I just don't get on with at all. I usually find that
if the ball is sticking its time to clean it. Get the fluff etc out
and its rotation is as smooth as it was when new again. I had a
microsoft trackball...yuk! Way too big even for my big hands.

Can see your point about positioning but short of actually making a
trackball yourself its a question of supply and demand. Mind you its
very rare for me to actually use the numeric side of the keyboard.
Quite obviously not many people find using a trackball a problem
otherwise the design would change. You pays your money and take
your choice.

regards
Graham
 
V

*Vanguard*

"Graham" said in news:[email protected]:
I've got a thumb operated Logitech marble with scroll wheel which I
think is fine. Easy to operate, you soon get use to using the thumb
and its just as accurate as using the fingers.

I tried a thumb trackball for awhile. For lateral movement, out and
back (i.e., up and down), for the outward diagonals, it was okay. The
direction that sucks is when pulling the thumb diagonally back towards
the crotch or web of the hand. That squeezing or curling action is
clumsy. In games, I found it easier to flick the ball with fingers than
to flick it with the thumb, and I could better guage the flick with
fingers than the thumb. You have to figure out what works best for you.
It also depends on how constant you use a pointing device. I got a
cordless mouse because I couldn't stand the resistance from its tail
(i.e., its cord). But I'm getting really tired of the fatigue for my
pinkie having to squeeze the mouse for all the repeated pickup of the
mouse when having to lift and move it.

For me, a thumb operated trackball immediately disqualifies the unit for
two reasons: cannot use it on the leftside of the keyboard (no lefty
trackballs) and I personally don't like using my thumb. If you're using
yours on the farther rightside of the keyboard (my arm gets tired
suspending it farther out on that side) and you are just adept (or just
as clumsy) using your thumb as your fingers, then a thumb-operated
righty trackball fits your needs.
I usually find that
if the ball is sticking its time to clean it.

When I used the Logitech trackball (forget which model) and even with
the Kensington Turbo (which doesn't have the same large stainless steel
ball bearing rollers of its Expert sibling), yeah, you have to clean
them a lot. The Expert didn't require nearly as much cleaning.
However, the Expert is pretty pricey. I'll give you an example of
quality (based on my real experience). Take an Expert and Turbo
trackball from Kensington and a trackball from Logitech and with each
take your curled up fist and slam the trackball with the bottomside
fleshy part of your fist as hard as you can. The Kensignton Expert
survives quite nicely. The others? Well, I suppose you could give them
to the kids if they're still mostly functional. That only remarks about
the quality of the ball and the stainless steel rollers. As far as the
buttons go, those on the Expert trackball aren't any better than the
others and the Logitechs actually seem to survive better.
Quite obviously not many people find using a trackball a problem
otherwise the design would change.

You see a lot of right-handed equipment that also produces the same
quantity of those products in a left-handed version? Why? Because
there are far fewer lefties than righties. I'm right-handed. After 20+
years in the computer industry as a programmer, alpha tester, sysadmin,
and the like, and at some point I decided it was less strain on my
muscles and joints to have the pointing device more forward of my torso
than out to the side. It depends on your level of use. I'm on the
computer nearly all day long and then come home to do contract work or
study and I'm on the computer even more. So I learned how to be adept
left-handed with the mouse although I'm right-handed. As a result, it
has become quite apparent that lefties are rarely considered by
manufacturers. Like you said, not enough money in it. Yeah, I didn't
make my choice. Mine was to switch away from my right-hand and go to my
more forward used and less strained left-hand. As a result, I have to
find asymmetrical devices (which also helps when righty others want to
use my computers).
You pays your money and take
your choice.

Sorry, that's quite an illogical statement typical of the "ins" telling
the "outs" that they should be happy being "outs". You aren't so stupid
as to not to understand that anyone in business has to develop and
market where they can generate the most revenue. Your attitude is that
all lefties should always be ignored and, in fact, they are (as far as
pointing devices go). Those that have choices claiming those who don't
should still have choices really don't give a damn. I'm right-handed in
a right-handed biased world finding it less strainful to be left-handed
(for a mouse or trackball). There ARE no choices except for a far fewer
numbered of selections in symmetrical devices. My CHOICE was to go
left-handed knowing that there would less to choose from.

So, assuming you do NOT use Microsoft's "Natural" keyboard and have
spent decades becoming extremely proficient and super fast on a standard
keyboard, how would you feel if all the standard keyboards nearly
disappeared and the "standard" became the Natural keyboard? Oh, you'd
still have a choice. You have the choice not to use deodorant, not to
bathe, and not brush your teeth, too, with the resultant "choice" of
significantly reducing the number of people that want to be around you.
"take your choice" is invalid because it means there WAS a choice.
 
V

*Vanguard*

"kony" said in news:[email protected]:
I don't know about *all* models/revisions of Logitech Optical Marble
Mouse, but I have one that does only use ball-bearings, looks like:
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/products/details/US/EN,CRID=6,CONTENTID=5003

However, no scroll wheel on it, one of it's major downfalls IMO since
I prefer to wheel-scroll.

The Kensington's (the new black ones) have a scroll "ring" around the
ball. I haven't used those models yet so I don't know if that's really
useful. I have the Logitech Navigator keyboard and it has a scroll
wheel on it. I much preferred the older model Navigator keyboard that
did NOT have that stupid F-lock key. I like the programmable top-row
buttons but I absolutely hate the F-lock key changing the F-keys and
that it never remembers the last state it was in (a reset, like during a
reboot or resume from Standby mode, sets the F-lock key OFF so the
F-keys aren't F-keys but instead those worthless programmable
functions).

You sure the Logitech Marble mouse has ball bearings? As I recall, the
ball rested on pins that were rubberized. The pins might've had ball
bearings but you're talking about a tiny spindle as opposed to the
Kensington that has nice large stainless steel rollers (no rubberized
surface) on which the ball rode. I thought I had looked at the Logitech
Marble but it didn't have nearly the same degree of free-wheeling feel
to it nor would it spin as easily or as long as the Kensington. The
ball on the Logitechs are definitely smaller. Too bad the local CompUSA
and BestBuy have such piss poor selections of opened mice and trackballs
on display for customers to inspect before buying. Also, I really like
having a gel wrist rest (I find the Belkin ones are best) not so much
for my wrist but for the heel of my hand (which is what really rests
against a surface). The Logitech unit looks like it extends too far
back to use a wrist rest. I'm on the computer all day long and then
again at home. Constantly having my hand's heel on a hard surface makes
it go numb or sore (i.e., not comfortable). I've seen too many of my
friends get wrist problems because they didn't protect them long before
problems showed up. Same for the idiots in the computer room that don't
wear ear plugs or protection with all that constant all-day fan and
drive noise.
 
G

Graham

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 12:41:55 -0600, "*Vanguard*"

snip
You see a lot of right-handed equipment that also produces the same
quantity of those products in a left-handed version? Why? Because
there are far fewer lefties than righties. I'm right-handed. After 20+
years in the computer industry as a programmer, alpha tester, sysadmin,
and the like, and at some point I decided it was less strain on my
muscles and joints to have the pointing device more forward of my torso
than out to the side.
Can see your point although I think there are more left handed people
than some people (manufacturers etc) realise. i.e in my immediate
family of 6 there are 2 left handers.
Strange though, I really hate having to use a bog standard mouse, I
get aches and pain in arm after a fairly short time and yet the roller
ball I can use all day long without even really thinking about it.
What really worries me though are children. They use computers from a
very early age and yet are they ever asked what mouse they would like
to use. Think a generation is going to be suffering RSI shortly.
Sorry, that's quite an illogical statement typical of the "ins" telling
the "outs" that they should be happy being "outs". You aren't so stupid
as to not to understand that anyone in business has to develop and
market where they can generate the most revenue. Your attitude is that
all lefties should always be ignored and, in fact, they are (as far as
pointing devices go).
Not so, I was referring to what IS available rather than what SHOULD
be available, like you said not enough money in it. Yet there should
be, I'm certain if I've got something like a 33% split between left
and right handers, I would think it can't be far off the average.
Surely its down to what stores will stock rather than manufacturers.
Afterall, having to stock two lots of items means double the space
allocated to one product. Cost surely must be marginable between the
two versions. Maybe slightly more for a L/H version due to less sales
per mould but at the end of the day I wouldn't think there would be
much in it...given the will!
So, assuming you do NOT use Microsoft's "Natural" keyboard and have
spent decades becoming extremely proficient and super fast on a standard
keyboard, how would you feel if all the standard keyboards nearly
disappeared and the "standard" became the Natural keyboard? Oh, you'd
still have a choice.
Eeek! Nuff said.

regards
Graham
 
K

kony

The Kensington's (the new black ones) have a scroll "ring" around the
ball. I haven't used those models yet so I don't know if that's really
useful. I have the Logitech Navigator keyboard and it has a scroll
wheel on it. I much preferred the older model Navigator keyboard that
did NOT have that stupid F-lock key. I like the programmable top-row
buttons but I absolutely hate the F-lock key changing the F-keys and
that it never remembers the last state it was in (a reset, like during a
reboot or resume from Standby mode, sets the F-lock key OFF so the
F-keys aren't F-keys but instead those worthless programmable
functions).


I haven't used many Kensington products, but those I have (nothing
memorable at the moment) left me feeling like they were second-rate. I
suppose that's about as vague as it gets, their current products might be
fine.

You sure the Logitech Marble mouse has ball bearings? As I recall, the
ball rested on pins that were rubberized. The pins might've had ball
bearings but you're talking about a tiny spindle as opposed to the
Kensington that has nice large stainless steel rollers (no rubberized
surface) on which the ball rode. I thought I had looked at the Logitech
Marble but it didn't have nearly the same degree of free-wheeling feel
to it nor would it spin as easily or as long as the Kensington. The
ball on the Logitechs are definitely smaller.

The balls are pretty tiny, though I'm not too sure I'd really want it
free-wheeling too much, as the effort to move it is very little and if it
stops immediately with minimal momentum that's OK with me. Then again I
don't use it as a primary control device, it's hooked to a secondard
system that I don't even have a keyboard attached to at the moment, else
I'd just hook it to a KVM.

Anyway, here's a pic of the Logitech mechanism, it looks like teflon
inserts with the bearing pressed into it.
http://69.36.189.159/usr_1034/marble.jpg

One problem with that Logitech is I knocked it off a workbench once, and
the ball easily popped out, hit some tools on the floor and put a small
ridge in the ball... now I can slightly feel that ridge when using it. I
can't really knock it for that though, I did knock it off and it's likely
any make of ball would've been ridged, but if the ball were a little
harder to pop out I'd be happier, it doesn't need removed for cleaning
very often with the hole in the bottom to let any debis fall out. More
than anything I'd add a scroll wheel to make it closer to my ideal. LOL,
I didn't even pick it over any other marble mouse, it was just dirt cheap
at the time, I paid about $10 for it a couple years ago.


Too bad the local CompUSA
and BestBuy have such piss poor selections of opened mice and trackballs
on display for customers to inspect before buying. Also, I really like
having a gel wrist rest (I find the Belkin ones are best) not so much
for my wrist but for the heel of my hand (which is what really rests
against a surface). The Logitech unit looks like it extends too far
back to use a wrist rest.

I have a Belkin gel pad, and now placing the Logitech on it, I can see
you're right, the gel pad only supports the wrist, not the palm of the
hand except on the edge.

I'm on the computer all day long and then
again at home. Constantly having my hand's heel on a hard surface makes
it go numb or sore (i.e., not comfortable). I've seen too many of my
friends get wrist problems because they didn't protect them long before
problems showed up. Same for the idiots in the computer room that don't
wear ear plugs or protection with all that constant all-day fan and
drive noise.

Well I guess everyone has their own preference, but I couldn't imagine
trying to be productive with the Marble mice... I'd had mine for 2 years
and still i'm a LOT slower on it than any decent "regular" mouse. For me
the best combat against soreness is the gel pad mousemat and regularly
changing position of hand, even alternating hands. That might be easier
for me than most people because I'm somewhat ambidexterous but mostly
left-handed, yet because of how most systems are set up I end up using
right hand more than left on mice/etc.
 

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