Warning for those buying a new printer

[Hecate]

Now if you look at the paper recomennded by Epson for a 2100/2200 you will
see the machine and Epson only support semigloss. So I took them to court
and lost my claim on those two points, Ink and paper. Ok I am lucky as I was
able to conduct my own litigation, but it proves a point that Epson in the
UK do not support warranty claims if you use third party ink, and that in
days when a 2100 cost over £500 not a cheapie machine but made no difference
I lost.

That's interesting because I have a quote in a photography magazine
from about 5/6 months ago in which an Epson spokesperson specifically
states "the use of Third Party Inks does NOT (my emphasis) invalidate
your warranty". Perhaps you could give me a link (in email) to where
I could find your case online so I can study it.

Thanks,

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

 

[Bob Headrick]

I was wondering about HP printers in this regard.

Is the reason they do not stop printing regardless of cleaning cycles due to
the quantity of ink used being very small

There is a very large difference between the amount of ink used in an
integrated printhead system vs. the typical fixed printhead systems. In the
fixed printhead case the printheads must last the life of the printer. To
accommodate this the printer services aggressively; after a few days of non-use
the printer may run a full priming cycle at the next power-on or next print
job. For some models at a slow user rate of printing, 60% or more of the ink
may be used in servicing. As an experiment you could look at the size of the
"diaper" in your printer vs. some other manufacturers.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, not speaking for my employer HP

 

[Davy]

Ivor Floppywrote:

Maybe not pleased, but unless they can *prove* that the 3rd party ink's
caused the fault; they can't get out of honouring the warrantee.


Davy Say's
Certainly see the point you made and very valid.

I had my printer xchanged and when the xchanged one went exactly the

same way in about the same time Epson did not want to know, I had not
had either printer for 12 months, they did'nt want to know since the
warrenty had run out on the first one.

 

[Ivor Floppy]

same way in about the same time Epson did not want to know, I had not
had either printer for 12 months, they did'nt want to know since the
warrenty had run out on the first one.

That's how warrantee's work - if you get something replaced during the
warrantee period; you don't start a whole new warrantee.
The warrantee (on the replaced printer) expires when the warrantee from the
purchase of the *first* printer expires.

If your really really lucky, the manufacturer may extend the warrantee on
the replacement, but that's very much an exception.

 

[measekite]

Ok I lost the claim but I got a lot of satisfaction when they were refused
costs. But more important, imagine a fairly full court room filled with
Epson people, four I believe plus two legals, when I walk in with wig and
gown, if only I could have used a camera, as they believed that I the
plaintiff was just a bloke

What is a bloke?

off the street and even though I lost I had a
full half hour to cross, I can assure you that faces were red. maybe that's
why they failed to get costs. I am sure their cost was far above what it
would have cost them to refund the cost of the printer. So perhaps in
another way I didn't loose.

In the UK the contract is with the seller and not the manufacturer but how
could I really blame the retailer for what I considered a manufacturers
short coming.

Sock it to em! eh?

 

[measekite]

That's interesting because I have a quote in a photography magazine
from about 5/6 months ago in which an Epson spokesperson specifically
states "the use of Third Party Inks does NOT (my emphasis) invalidate
your warranty".

It does not invalidate the Epson warranty unless Epson proves that the
use of the particular 3rd party ink used was the problem that caused the
printer to work improperly.

 

[measekite]

We all know that Epson USA is better than the anals at Epson UK. I
guess UK means unkaring.

 

[Ivor Floppy]

We all know that Epson USA is better than the anals at Epson UK. I guess
UK means unkaring.

You just know how to handle them

Unfortunately, here in the UK the attitude of most large corporate is "the
customer is wrong". But if you know your rights you can usually get what you
want.
(that's assuming you have the patience to go through the 25+ stages of
telephone menu system to actually get to talk to somebody, and then assuming
that person isn't in India and can understand your accent (and you can
understand theirs), and assuming that you can afford the phone bill you'll
get when the "technician" takes you through a 10 stage diagnostic process
(usually involving rebooting, uninstalling drivers, rebooting, downloading
and reinstalling drivers, rebooting, running printer self-test diagnostics,
waiting 10 minutes for his computer system to recognise the serial number
you gave them, waiting another 10 minutes for the operator to talk to their
supervisor.. rebooting again) - all at £1.00 a minute.. and then assuming
the courier service(s) don't lose the printer when you mail it back to them
(the nearest Epson authorised dealer being either at least 75 miles away; or
non-existent).

It's all part of the charm of living in the UK.

 

[Shooter]

English slang for person.

What is a bloke?


Sock it to em! eh?

 

[Shooter]

It does not invalidate the Epson warranty unless Epson proves that the
use of the particular 3rd party ink used was the problem that caused the
printer to work improperly.

Sorry a UK court thought different.

 

[Davy]

Ivor Floppywrote:

Unfortunately, here in the UK the attitude of most large corporate is "the
customer is wrong". But if you know your rights you can usually get what you
want.

Davy say's
That is very true, you only need to speak to 'the pen pushers' at

the help desk', the attitude is we know everything and thats it.

The conversation goes,

"Well, I bought this printer 6 months ago, and it won't print",

..."Are the ink cartridges full"?...."Yes, I bought them yesterday",
it goes on and on

"What you need to do is to do a cleaning cycle",.... "Yes, I have tried",
"trying going in to the printer driver and do a nozzle clean",

"yes I had to do that to do the nozzle clean",......"Oh, I see, just
a moment I will put you on to technical".

So Technical comes on and the darn routine is repeated until I have

no more stupid cloggin' ink. "What you must never do is to do more
than 6 nozzles cleans in one go as this damages the heads", (I have
only their word).

"Oh, I see, well er, I have already done 2 before they put me

through to you and you want me to do more, and oh by the way, why is
this not mentioned in the manual"... "Oh, er just try it once
again"?

It goes on and on and on and can easily take over twenty minutes, it really does depend on

the guy in the shop.....the person you speak to.....and the

knowledge that person is capable of absorbing on the phone.

Seiko Epson ought get their finger out and sort Epson UK out if that

is the case, the service that I received was just diabolical.

Their attitude should have been Oh, dear we can't have this, it's

not the printers they are concerned about but their ink tanks.

 

[Hecate]

Sorry a UK court thought different.

They obviously didn't have the quote from the Epson spokesperson in
front of them.

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

 

[Hecate]

You just know how to handle them

Unfortunately, here in the UK the attitude of most large corporate is "the
customer is wrong". But if you know your rights you can usually get what you
want.
(that's assuming you have the patience to go through the 25+ stages of
telephone menu system to actually get to talk to somebody, and then assuming
that person isn't in India and can understand your accent (and you can
understand theirs), and assuming that you can afford the phone bill you'll
get when the "technician" takes you through a 10 stage diagnostic process
(usually involving rebooting, uninstalling drivers, rebooting, downloading
and reinstalling drivers, rebooting, running printer self-test diagnostics,
waiting 10 minutes for his computer system to recognise the serial number
you gave them, waiting another 10 minutes for the operator to talk to their
supervisor.. rebooting again) - all at £1.00 a minute.. and then assuming
the courier service(s) don't lose the printer when you mail it back to them
(the nearest Epson authorised dealer being either at least 75 miles away; or
non-existent).

It's all part of the charm of living in the UK.

You ought to try the Which Book of Results Letters. Generally I find
the (threat of) use of the Small Claims Court accompanied by the
mention of reporting the case to the press tends to make corporate's
see differently (they can't use high-powered lawyers in the Small
Claims Court <g> and they hate bad publicity <g>).

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

 

[Shooter]

That would be hearsay. Where would the proof be.

They obviously didn't have the quote from the Epson spokesperson in
front of them.

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

 

[Shooter]

You ought to try the Which Book of Results Letters. Generally I find
the (threat of) use of the Small Claims Court accompanied by the
mention of reporting the case to the press tends to make corporate's
see differently (they can't use high-powered lawyers in the Small
Claims Court <g> and they hate bad publicity <g>).

--

Hecate - The Real One
(e-mail address removed)
Fashion: Buying things you don't need, with money
you don't have, to impress people you don't like...

Is that Beano or Mickey Mouse you are referring to, of course they can use
high powered lawyers, and there is no case reporting to the press in the
County Court in England and Wales but there is in Scotland. In the UK the
Plaintiff would have to ask for the press to be present and I think any CC
judge if asked would frown at that. So all you have is after reporting and
who the hell is going to give space to a £500 claim apart from computer
mags. The only advantage is that the Defendant if they loose have a
judgement against them and have to pay up and in the case of a large company
that has little meaning.

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Hi Tony,

I just spent 30 minutes reviewing Epson's Service Manual for the C50,
C60, C61, C62 printers.

Now, I can't say if they are written with errors in them or not, but the
manual clearly:

1) shows the LED error code for waste ink pads being full

2) Shows the manner in which to dismantle the printer and replace the
waste ink pads

3) Indicates that the adjustment software for the C62 printer includes a
"Protection Number A" reset for waste ink pads, to be done after
replacement of the waste ink pads.

Now, I'm not saying the cost of this service is logical considering the
cost of a replacement C62 or equivalent printer, but if the manual can
be trusted, and in general the errors in them are typos and misspellings
more than outright wrong information, then indeed the C62 printer has
all the "parts" to have the waste ink pads replaced and the EEPROM reset
for the Protection number.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Just to be clear, kudos fro being willing to go to court over something
you believed in, and for going through the process. In this case, I
think the judge made a correct decision, because Epson did not advertise
the printer would work with the paper in question. For Epson, at least,
the concept of a "photo" printer is one that has the extra low
dye/pigment load inks that are supposed to provide greater blending
"more like a photo". As to if that definition hold water is another
issue, however.

Many photos are matte or semi-matte surfaced. I'm sure one can print
glossy prints in the 2100/2200 anyway, by either using different paper
than the one in question, or by removing or adapting the output wheels.


I think a more interesting lawsuit would be regarding the waste ink
pads, the non-refillable cartridges would make a good environmental
legislative issue, etc.

There are a number of issues I'd love to get some activity on regarding
the inkjet ink and printer market.. maybe one day.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Thank Bob,

That's what I expected, and it's one reason I advise people who have low
and sporadic inkjet printer use to buy HP printers.

I thought I had coined the term "Diaper" for the waste ink pads, some
time back, but it seems it is an industry standard reference ;-)

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Wouldn't that be "English slang for an "regular guy""

Art.

 

[Shooter]

Art,

Yes I think it would. The reason I used the description a "bloke" is
because I use speech recognition for all my user group replies so as spoken
it's printed. Perhaps in the past I have trained it for the word "bloke" I
suppose I should check what I say a little more but one becomes a little
lazy with 99% accuracy. I am a little unsure though if "regular guy" is a
term used in the UK. Perhaps in hindsight I could have used "regular Joe off
the street." Ah well, does it really matter as one poster stated, he could
not care less if I went to court of what I had for breakfast., we have
another saying, nothing so strange as people.