Warning for those buying a new printer

[Davy]

Impmon

Does it have to be paper towels (doubt they would last long), was
gonna suggest some sort of container, but guess you'd be limited for
space. Pretty sure you can get high absorbancy sponge what you can
cut down to size.

Just an idea I had.
Davy

 

[Impmon]

On 28 May 2005 19:33:56 -0400,

Does it have to be paper towels (doubt they would last long), was
gonna suggest some sort of container, but guess you'd be limited for
space. Pretty sure you can get high absorbancy sponge what you can
cut down to size.

I don't know, I didn't plan on using the old printer that much longer
so I used paper towels as they were around. The old ink waste pad
(from Canon printer) were kind of like very thick paper towel, about
half inch thick and fairly soft. I'd think anything that can absorb
ink and hold them so it won't leak if you turned printer upside down
can work in place of the old ink waste pad.

FWIW the ink waste pad on the bottom of 4200 (probably same with other
4000 series) were almost the width of the printer and varied from one
inch to 3 inch deep to fit the irregular shape of the tank. When I
removed mine, nearly all the ink were on the right side, the left half
looked clean and unused so I would think it was too big for its need.

 

[Shooter]

I can only speak from my own experience - two rests, no problems. I'll try
another rest if/when I have to and see what happens. After all, most people
would junk the machine given the high cost of foam pad replacement - so
what's to lose?

I also use third-party ink and my local Epson service centre (franchised)
has no problem accepting Epson's in for warranty work with non-Epson inks in
the machine. I haven't had to take mine in, but I mentioned that I was
keeping the originals just in case it ever needed to be seen in 'genuine'
condition - and they told me not to bother because it made no difference to
them what ink was in it.

I assume that they're very keen to perform warranty work - and aren't going
to turn it away by quibbling about the brand of ink.

Just a point to purchase waste pads in the UK for a 2100 is a little over
£20 and that includes shipping of £10 in the US the price is $20 for all six
pads. not an expensive item if you have a top end printer.

Let me share my experience with you, I called Epson UK while under warranty
and asked for the problem of wheel marks on glossy paper to be corrected, in
the conversation I was asked if I used Epson Ink. I been an honest person
said I did, I was told that my warranty was invalid for two reasons first
because I used third party ink and second because I used glossy paper.

Now if you look at the paper recomennded by Epson for a 2100/2200 you will
see the machine and Epson only support semigloss. So I took them to court
and lost my claim on those two points, Ink and paper. Ok I am lucky as I was
able to conduct my own litigation, but it proves a point that Epson in the
UK do not support warranty claims if you use third party ink, and that in
days when a 2100 cost over £500 not a cheapie machine but made no difference
I lost.

 

[Davy]

Trying rack my brain cells eer', if it was me I would have put those
kictchen towels in a plastic bag, alot easier to handle, the ends
could even be sealed up. I just scrapped a C62 and the waste looked
like a felt material as oppsed to a sponge material we know.

If thats all the matter then its well worth doing some experiments
with various materials you could perhaps use any other fluid than
ink.

Was trying to give some ideas thats all, I don't know how much these
things are to buy, as you know anything will do as long as it does
the job. even a glass tube with a stopper and the towel rolled up
inside, better than inky fingers.

Davy

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Hi Lyn,

Most of the things you report are true. I would like to correct a few
of them, however.

A number of the inkjet companies have chips to try to prevent refilling
of the ink cartridges. With the Epsons, you can purchase a chip
resetter for under $10 that resets the cartridge chip each time you
refill. The newer cartridges are more difficult to refill and require
good instructions to do so correctly, but many people do so. You can
also purchase 3rd party ink cartridges and for a heavy uses sometimes a
continuos inking system is beneficial.

All inkjet printers have waste ink pads which get used up with cleaning
the heads. The reason for the warning is because ink can start
leaking from them if they become overfilled. Several companies'
products shut the printer down if this amount of ink is reached. I
agree that there should be an early warning and the printer shouldn't
stop dead as it does when it reaches that point.

To the best of my knowledge, the EEPROM chip in the C62 Epson printer is
reprogrammable when/if you were to get the waste ink pads replaced.
Older Epson printers could be reset with some front panel buttons, now
you need to have a specialized software used.

I agree they charge too much for this and a design allowing for
self-service is fairer, and should have incorporated.

The C62 is a light duty printer and one of the cheapest of it's kind on
the market. It had a smaller set of waste ink pads than some and
therefore they get used up sooner during cleaning and on/off cycling.

If you use it as regularly as you claim, it would appear to be used in a
commercial setting, which is not what it is designed for, but even if
you did, you must have gotten more than your money back in terms of the
original cost.

All inkjet printers use up ink to clean their heads and all have to do
something with that ink. Each printer manufacturer has pluses and
minuses. You will not find an inkjet printer that will resolve each
issues you discuss.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

In fairness, the descriptions are accurate.

The EEPROM has no idea if the waste ink pads are full or not. There is
a pre-programmed number of functions programmed into the EEPROM. Each
function is given a numerical value and added to the total protection
number. In reality, how full the pads are depends upon if the ink is
pigment or dye, how fast the water and other volatiles evaporate, how
long it took for the protection number to be reached, etc.

I have never seen this documented anywhere in Epson's user guides or
other non-proprietary paperwork.

Also, although the Epson cartridges have been chipped for a number of
years, it isn't exactly a "hot" item to promote in advertising.

Art

 

[Arthur Entlich]

According to several websites selling Epson chip resetters, there is a
univeral model that will reset C60, 61, 62, B, 80, 82 cartridges.

Art

Lyn
I don't think there is a solution for the c62;
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/60/1 (especially page 2) explains why,
you may already have tried this?
If you are forced to buy a replacement then go to
http://www.ssclg.com/epsone.shtml which has a link listing which Epson printers
can be reset by software means. Be warned however that resetting the counter
may not be enough, in my experience you can do it at least once with most Epson

<cut>

 

[XYZ ABC]

FWIW the ink waste pad on the bottom of 4200 (probably same with other
4000 series) were almost the width of the printer and varied from one
inch to 3 inch deep to fit the irregular shape of the tank. When I
removed mine, nearly all the ink were on the right side, the left half
looked clean and unused so I would think it was too big for its need.
--

Can the pad be cleaned and reused?

 

[Arthur Entlich]

I was wondering about HP printers in this regard.

Is the reason they do not stop printing regardless of cleaning cycles
due to the quantity of ink used being very small, due to the way the
waste ink area is designed or isolated, the size of the waste ink area,
or just that in HP's design they consider ink leakage secondary to the
loss of the use of the printer?

Art

[...]

I found out that all Epson printers are designed to let you clean your print
nozzles just so many times, and then you can't use the machine any more.

As do printers from Canon, HP, Lexmark........

This is not true for any HP DeskJet, Photosmart or PSC unit. Some printers
such as the DeskJet 450 portable do have small service station that needs to be
cleaned or replaced and it will give the user a message to that effect. None
of the aforementioned HP printers will stop printing based on the number of
cleaning cycles that have been run.

Regards,
Bob Headrick, not speaking for my employer HP

 

[Arthur Entlich]

Now, let's be clear about something's you mention here, for the sake of
accuracy and understanding..

If I understand what you posted, you sued Epson regarding a problem with
wheel marks on Glossy paper. Epson indicated that in the matter of
wheel marks, they would not warrant for two reasons:

1) You used third party inks

2) You use a paper type that was not indicated as appropriate for this
printer (even with Epson inks).

Do I understand this correctly?

At no time did Epson indicate that the heads would not be covered for
either of these two reasons, for instance, or that the transport motor
wouldn't be covered for these two reasons, or am I misunderstanding you?

The wheel marks are directly related to the type of inks and papers you
use. They alter drying speed and compatibility of the rollers with the
print. That makes sense. If I used water soluble glue in a design
project and when I left it outside, the glue washed away and the project
fell apart, I think the Court could under stand that my expectations
were both inaccurate and unreasonable.

Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding what you are stating here.

Art

 

[measekite]

Hi Lyn,

Most of the things you report are true. I would like to correct a few
of them, however.

A number of the inkjet companies have chips to try to prevent
refilling of the ink cartridges.

Unfortunately, they have a legal and moral right to protect their
investment and make as much money as they can. And they do charge what
the traffic will bear.

With the Epsons, you can purchase a chip resetter for under $10 that
resets the cartridge chip each time you refill. The newer cartridges
are more difficult to refill and require good instructions to do so
correctly, but many people do so. You can also purchase 3rd party ink
cartridges and for a heavy uses sometimes a continuos inking system is
beneficial.

All inkjet printers have waste ink pads which get used up with
cleaning the heads. The reason for the warning is because ink can
start leaking from them if they become overfilled. Several companies'
products shut the printer down if this amount of ink is reached. I
agree that there should be an early warning and the printer shouldn't
stop dead as it does when it reaches that point.

To the best of my knowledge, the EEPROM chip in the C62 Epson printer
is reprogrammable when/if you were to get the waste ink pads replaced.
Older Epson printers could be reset with some front panel buttons, now
you need to have a specialized software used.

I agree they charge too much for this and a design allowing for
self-service is fairer, and should have incorporated.

The C62 is a light duty printer and one of the cheapest of it's kind
on the market. It had a smaller set of waste ink pads than some and
therefore they get used up sooner during cleaning and on/off cycling.

If you use it as regularly as you claim, it would appear to be used in
a commercial setting, which is not what it is designed for, but even
if you did, you must have gotten more than your money back in terms of
the original cost.

All inkjet printers use up ink to clean their heads and all have to do
something with that ink.

Epson uses more ink than their competitors and that is from Epson.

 

[measekite]

Now, let's be clear about something's you mention here, for the sake
of accuracy and understanding..

If I understand what you posted, you sued Epson regarding a problem
with wheel marks on Glossy paper. Epson indicated that in the matter
of wheel marks, they would not warrant for two reasons:

1) You used third party inks

Why should they warrant performance when using ink that is not recommended

2) You use a paper type that was not indicated as appropriate for this
printer (even with Epson inks).

It has been long accepted that generic paper made to standard
specifications are treated differently from inks.

 

[Scott Reeve]

Just curious - what ink refill system do you use/recommend.
I've got an Epson R200.

This might be helpful to anyone on the list who is thinking about buying new
equipment: Please spread this to other lists, as well, in the hopes that it
will help others.

<deleted>

 

[Trapezium]

Just a point to purchase waste pads in the UK for a 2100 is a little over
£20 and that includes shipping of £10 in the US the price is $20 for all
six
pads. not an expensive item if you have a top end printer.

Let me share my experience with you, I called Epson UK while under
warranty
and asked for the problem of wheel marks on glossy paper to be corrected,
in
the conversation I was asked if I used Epson Ink. I been an honest person
said I did, I was told that my warranty was invalid for two reasons first
because I used third party ink and second because I used glossy paper.

Now if you look at the paper recomennded by Epson for a 2100/2200 you
will
see the machine and Epson only support semigloss. So I took them to court
and lost my claim on those two points, Ink and paper. Ok I am lucky as I
was
able to conduct my own litigation, but it proves a point that Epson in the
UK do not support warranty claims if you use third party ink, and that in
days when a 2100 cost over £500 not a cheapie machine but made no
difference
I lost.

Bad luck with the claim - there's a moral for us all, 'Yes, of course I used
Epson consumables......"

As far as my local service centre goes, they are a private company who
undertake Epson's warranty repairs for the area, and they don't care if the
ink tanks are filled with Fairy Liquid as long as they can put in a claim to
Epson for work performed.

 

[Tony]

Art
You are correct, I know one or two people who have used these, however unless I
misread the original post the issue here is not the cartridge but the waste pad
counter which is in the printer not the cartridge. The chips can be reset but I
understand that the waste pad counter cannot be on some Epson (and others no
doubt) printers.
Tony

 

[Davy]

These are contractor's, 'as long as they get paid" is the word. I
understand
that they are alloted so many xchange units, even for the simplist
fault they could kick one into touch and hand out a replacement.

If Epson found out he was servicing printers under warrenty what had
other inks in, they would'nt be too pleased it really does depend "on
the guy in the shop" as to speak.

I do believe the shop I got my exchanged unit from was a 'contractor'
..

Davy

 

[Ivor Floppy]

These are contractor's, 'as long as they get paid" is the word. I
understand
that they are alloted so many xchange units, even for the simplist
fault they could kick one into touch and hand out a replacement.

If Epson found out he was servicing printers under warrenty what had
other inks in, they would'nt be too pleased it really does depend "on
the guy in the shop" as to speak.

Maybe not pleased, but unless they can *prove* that the 3rd party ink's
caused the fault; they can't get out of honouring the warrantee.

 

[Shooter]

Point one and two are correct, and no the paper factor had nothing to do
with the ink used both were separate issues. With point two inks were not an
issue. As I stated two separate issues. I tried and failed to argue that a
printer advertised as a photo printer should be able to print on glossy
paper. The court decided that there was no deception on the part of Epson.

 

[Davy]

Tony
All waste pad counters can be reset with Epsons, to do this you put
the printer in service mode then run a programme for the particular
model which displays the memory in the 'on board' ram in the cpu, to
reset you just alter the 'Hex' code on the relevant address line.

Maybe what as been referred to mistakenly is the ability to either
reset this via the 'push buttons, or simply via 'a one stop fix' a
downloaded programme that addresses the matter without having to go
into service mode and ignoring all other perameters that may be
listed in the printers cpu memory.

Davy

 

[Shooter]

Ok I lost the claim but I got a lot of satisfaction when they were refused
costs. But more important, imagine a fairly full court room filled with
Epson people, four I believe plus two legals, when I walk in with wig and
gown, if only I could have used a camera, as they believed that I the
plaintiff was just a bloke off the street and even though I lost I had a
full half hour to cross, I can assure you that faces were red. maybe that's
why they failed to get costs. I am sure their cost was far above what it
would have cost them to refund the cost of the printer. So perhaps in
another way I didn't loose.

In the UK the contract is with the seller and not the manufacturer but how
could I really blame the retailer for what I considered a manufacturers
short coming.