W2K SP4 Hosed our PC - Need Help !!!

[George Hester]

That true. I don't jump on the upgrade wagon. And my systems run pretty well. But the security updates have to be considered wisely. If you had ignored slammer then well you had about a month or you were nabbed. Same can be said about blaster. There are more on the horizon count on it. But often these security updates REQUIRE a service pack level. The trick is determining what's likely to get in the wild and what's not likely. Chances R the ones that will get in the wild are those that are inadvertently installed by the user. Those I can do without. I don't need security updates for them. But those that come in by a flaw in how Windows 2000 responds to TCP\IP DCOM RPS well those I get pretty quickly. Not IMMEDIATELY but pretty quickly. Usually right after I get attacked. Then they go in. And if a Service Pack is required then that goes in too. But remember most clients install a Service Pack thinking it's going to solve an issue they have. That is not likely.

 

[George Hester]

They were all a result of IE6 in Windows 2000

 

[Steve N.]

I generally look at all updates pretty closely before implementing them,
too. I took a chance with SP4 under ill-advisement from "superiors". But
there are countless people using Windows that are understandably
depending on M$ to take care of them, not break their systems. The whole
point to my replying to these posts about SP4 woes is that it is well
documented here and elsewhere that SP4 is NOT stable in many otherwise
very stable systems, no matter what the M$ lackeys claim. It's happened
before and it will undoubtedly happen again. I don't hate M$ or Mr.
Gates. I do hate denial and skirting issues, though.

Steve

 

[Steve N.]

Not sure I follow. I had IE 6 sp1 installed on all these machines prior
to installing Win2K SP4. There were no problems prior to installing SP4.
Please elaborate.

Steve

 

[Steve N.]

I don't agree. SP3 fixed issues that were not fixed in SP2 which
fixed issues that were not fixed in SP1 which fixed issues that came
with Windows 2000.

Now SP4. I'm not going to get into "It's all the service pack's
fault" because in Windows 2000 Professional I have no issues. In the
Server well that's a different matter. And yes there is an issue
with SP4 in the server. The issue is compounded by having Internet
Explorer 6 installed.

But the issue is really slight and just results in an Error being
written to the Event Viewer and in fact another issue where the Event
Viewer stops functionaing. Easily fixed. Not the former but I know
of no earlier Service Packs that came out to "fix" an earlier one.

This is not the case im my experience with Win2K Pro (not Server) and
SP4, as evidenced in my posts in this thread. If you care to address
some of the issues I have had (and others have had) in this by all means
please do. And by all means please elaborate on exactly WHAT you do not
agree with that I've written.

It seems to me that you wrote:

"SP3 fixed issues that were not fixed in SP2 which fixed issues that
were not fixed in SP1 which fixed issues that came with Windows 2000."

Which is in part in agreement with some of what I wrote, except that I
added that in MY experience (and obviously in that of others) it is
often the case that there are things "fixed" and other things "broken"
with service packs (and not just M$'s SPs either).

All I am saying is that I have seen very many Win2K Pro PCs hosed by SP4
that were otherwise working just fine. I gave my experiencial evidence
and repeatable evidence, which I have done a fair job of suplying
symptoms for here. Care to comment on anything specific? It'd be nice if
someone could come up with exactly WHAT gets broken with SP4, WHY, and
under WHAT circumstances. Maybe M$ would be able to actually FIX it
then, instead of avoiding the issues. I've contributed my experiences. I
don't have any answers except that if SP4 causes problems then remove
it. It has proven beyond any doubt to me and many others to be
problematic. If you haven't had the problems, then good for you. Me and
a lot of others have.

Steve

 

[Torgeir Bakken (MVP)]

At my home I have had 100% failure rate. At work I cnservatively
estimate close to 50% failure rate. (See below)

I agree, that is very bad, but no way that is the standard failure rate
for most people. If it had, there had been a outcry much, much worse
than what has been seen so far (and as I remember it, it was
approximately the same "noise" level in the newsgroups when
SP3 was released).

Backups are indeed good practice, but that's not really the point. The
point is that SP4 causes problems for a lot of people and Microsoft (and
you) are ignoring it (for the time being anyway). Instead of
recommending backups and making blanket statements, how about trying to
help figure out exactly WHAT is broken in SP4?

I'm afraid posting to a peer-to-peer community (like this one) for this
type of issues isn't going to get the ball rolling at Microsoft. The
only way you can get Microsoft to investigate this is if you (and likely
a lot of others) open a support case when you have a SP4 upgrade
failure/issues so the support people can get crash dumps, service pack
install logs etc. They also have their own reporting/investigating tools
you can run on such computer to help them analyzing the issue (and as
long as the computer is bootable, they even have tools to be able to
look at the computer remotely if I am not mistaken).

Where else are you going to hear about it? I am sure there are hundreds
of thousands of PC happily churning away with Win2K SP4, but for a
growing number this is not the case.

My PERSONAL assesment of SP4 is based on direct experience, not just
what I read here or elsewhere. For example, I have three Win2K Pro
machines at my home. One has been running flawlessly for about 3 years.
Another has been for over a year. Another is a fairly new install and
has no software installed other than that which ships with the OS,
drivers for hardware, an a/v package (AVG) and a firewall (KPF). On all
three immediately after the insallation of SP4 the exact same issues
developed; missing program shortcuts, no Administrative Tools, SFC
failures, random lockups and forced restarts resulting in drive errors.
All three are M$ certified hardware, clean installs, current drivers,
nothing flakey at all. All pass OEM and 3rd party hardware diags with
flying colors.

On nearly every Win2K workstation I can think of that has had SP4
installed at work (where I support hundreds of Windows PCs, a fair
amount running Win2K) there has been general system instability, random
lockups and forced restarts. Two that I personally use (a desktop and a
laptop, different brands and certified Microsoft Compatible for 2K and
XP) I have had to remove SP4 for the same reasons. I seriously doubt
this is coincindental.

Don't get me wrong, Torgeir, you do good, just please do it better and
please quit making excuses for Microsoft. Listen to the people - we are
trying to tell you that SP4 is a problem. Perhaps not for you, but for a
lot of the rest of us.

I'm not making excuses for Microsoft, I just tell it as I see it from
my experience, and I do listen, but it is not a thing I can do about it,
I'm afraid.

As I recommend further up in this post, please open a support case at
Microsoft for your SP4 issues , it is the only way to get information
back to Microsoft in a way that they can have a chance to find the
source of a problem.

Anyway, let's hope that SP5 will be a better experience than SP4
for you and many others

 

[George Hester]

In the server yes I do not like it. I agree. I told you I did not agree with your assertion that Service Packs of Windows 2000 have come out to fix things that were broke from earlier service packs. I think I was clear on that.

The issue in the server is a pretty esoteric thing. I don't even recall what it was at the moment. It was discussed when SP4 first came out and I have never seen it since. But my recollection of it is that it sends an error to the Event Viewer. What type of error the event ID I do not recall. All I know is it is NOT hose material.

But I have told you where SP4 has the most problems. And in fact it is the root cause of most well-behaving machines misbehaving. It is Microsoft Internet Explorer 6 installed. Windows 2000 was not made for that browser. If you recall Windows NT 4 had similar problems when IE 5 came out.

Sure I know some people believe their system behaves Top Notch with IE 6 installed. Boy would they be amazed how well it would behave if IE 6 was NOT installed.

 

[George Hester]

Sure their were you were just unaware of them. Try it. Take a SP3 system which does NOT have IE6 installed. Say just IE 5.01. Upgrade that to SP4. I bet you'll change your tune.

 

[Vance Green]

George, you seem to know what IE6 does
to perfectly working 5.5 systems...

I had one of those here, and installed .NET Professional
to do .NET CF programming for the Pocket PC. .NET Prof. won't
install without IE6.

So, I made a SS backup and let it.

I now get an intermittent GUI deadlock condition that
defies repair, screen ops slow to a crawl. When you drag
windows around the desktop, for example, it's move-stop-
move-stop, etc. Rolling back to 5.5 did NOT clear the problem,
IE 6 changed something (MFC, DLL et. al.) that has remained
after the repair.

Is this something you have experienced with your IE 6
escapades?

I really need to run .NET, and the IE6 misbehavior
issue is keeping me from doing it...

What are the specific issues of which you are aware?
Maybe I can do some more detective work here...

In the server yes I do not like it. I agree. I told you I did not agree
with your assertion that Service Packs of Windows 2000 have come out to fix
things that were broke from earlier service packs. I think I was clear on
that.

The issue in the server is a pretty esoteric thing. I don't even recall
what it was at the moment. It was discussed when SP4 first came out and I
have never seen it since. But my recollection of it is that it sends an
error to the Event Viewer. What type of error the event ID I do not recall.
All I know is it is NOT hose material.

But I have told you where SP4 has the most problems. And in fact it is the
root cause of most well-behaving machines misbehaving. It is Microsoft
Internet Explorer 6 installed. Windows 2000 was not made for that browser.
If you recall Windows NT 4 had similar problems when IE 5 came out.

Sure I know some people believe their system behaves Top Notch with IE 6
installed. Boy would they be amazed how well it would behave if IE 6 was
NOT installed.

 

[Steve N.]

Thanks for the info. I will try that.

Steve

 

[Steve N.]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood. Thank you for clarifying.

Steve

 

[Torgeir Bakken (MVP)]

Sure their were you were just unaware of them. Try it. Take a SP3
system which does NOT have IE6 installed. Say just IE 5.01.
Upgrade that to SP4. I bet you'll change your tune.

Hi

Yes, I agree with you, many of the issues could be caused by IE 6.0.

There is only one major drawback with not installing IE 6 on Win2k,
if you want to have security updates to IE on Win2k, you would need
to stay at the IE 5.01 version, you can not upgrade to IE 5.5 SP2.

If my memory does not fail me, Microsoft has stated that the latest
IE cumulative update is the last one for IE 5.5 on Win2k (but I hope
they release at lest one more, because the latest IE update was pretty
buggy). For IE 5.01, you will still get updates, because that was the
version of IE that Win2k originally comes with, so they will support
that IE version on Win2k as long as they support Win2k itself.

 

[George Hester]

Usually issues such as you describe are applications running in the background causing the sluggishness. There is an issue similar to this installing IE 6 and using Windows Explorer. That is the clearest evidence of how IE 6 changes the operating system Windows 2000. Without IE 6 installed Windows Explorer will open instantly with all the folders appearing at once if your Windows Explorer shortcut is C:\WINNT\explorer.scf. But if IE 6 is installed the folders will appear sequentially. This is one reason I don't install IE 6 if I don't have to. Since you want the Visual Studio .NET and the Help files that come along for the ride you have no choice.

Saying all that the return of IE to a previous version should "fix" this issue. But my experience with IE 6 other then the sluggishness of opening Windows Explorer has been more along the lines of Windows Exception Errors. These are caused by mshtml.dll that gets updated constantly with IE 6 updates. Almost all the IE 6 updates in 2003 were flawed. It seems Microsoft did not get them right until the end of the year. I have a fix for these exception errors but that is not your issue.

So I suspect it is IE 6 and Microsoft Outlook Express. Are you showing anything in the Exvent Viewer that may correspond? Sometimes with OEX 6 running in the background can cause this.