VueScan or NikonScan?

[Dave]

Hi All,

I have a Nikon LS-40 ED film scanner. Would you recommend VueScan or
the Nikon Twain driver through NikonScan or Photoshop Elements 2.0 as
my primary scanning software?

And what would you recommend as the initial settings for scanning:

Kodak Gold 200-2 negatives
Kodak Gold 200-6 negatives
Kodak Kodachrome slides
Kodak Ektachrome slides

Any help is GREATLY appreciated.

Many thanks,
Dave

 

[Mac McDougald]

I have a Nikon LS-40 ED film scanner. Would you recommend VueScan or
the Nikon Twain driver through NikonScan or Photoshop Elements 2.0 as
my primary scanning software?

Elements is not part of your scanner interface.
Simply an image editor you can dump the file into either with Nikon TWAIN
or open into after scanning with VueScan.

For what it's worth, I've always used VueScan with my LS-2000.

Mac

 

[Jim]

Hi All,

I have a Nikon LS-40 ED film scanner. Would you recommend VueScan or
the Nikon Twain driver through NikonScan or Photoshop Elements 2.0 as
my primary scanning software?

I use either Vuescan or Nikonscan. Nikonscan can send its image directly to
Elements, but I seldom use this facility. I would rather
do all the scanning, and then do all the PS work.

And what would you recommend as the initial settings for scanning:

Kodak Gold 200-2 negatives
Kodak Gold 200-6 negatives Use color negative at 2900 dpi
Kodak Kodachrome slides Use Kodachrome at 2900 dpi
Kodak Ektachrome slides

Use E6 at 2900 dpi

You may still need to change the analog gain. I regularly need about 1/4
stop more exposure, That might be a bit hard to see though.
You may still need ICE for Gold 200 and Ektachrome. You may still need ROC
for the Gold 200 (if really old anyway).
Jim

 

[Dave]

Elements is not part of your scanner interface.
Simply an image editor you can dump the file into either with Nikon TWAIN
or open into after scanning with VueScan.

For what it's worth, I've always used VueScan with my LS-2000.

Thanks, Max. I realize that, but I can access the Twain driver
through either Nikon Scan or Elements. Two routes to the same Twain.

Have you been happy with VueScan? Do you use it for both negative and
slide scanning? I read somewhere that it was superior for negatives
but the reviewer didn't mention slides and I understand there's a
difference between the two. What do you think?

 

[Dave]

Oops, sorry. I meant "Mac."

 

[WD]

I have a LS-5000ED. The big problem I have with Nikon Scan is that it
can clip white and black points. It gives the user absolutley no
control over this.
This is my primary reason for generally preferring Vuescan.

WD

 

[Mac McDougald]

Oops, sorry. I meant "Mac."

You can call me anything but late for supper

Well, I tried VueScan while I was still using NikonScan 2.5.
Liked it enough that I just never updated NS to see if it became better
or what, once other versions were available.

I've done maybe close to 5,000 scans now with the LS-2000 (have cleaned
mirrors/lens once) mostly with VueScan, from negs and trannies; used to
go back to NS and compare sometimes, never saw better overall results.

I've never really used many of the advanced features of VS, though...my
scanning work has mostly come in dribbles, so it's rare I ever need to
settle in and do over 100 at a time. Although my largest job was 2,000.
Lots of old Kodachromes in it, and Ed's IR Clean did well with them,
unlike the NS ICE. I understand that the current ICE is much better
though.

Also, I generally don't TWAIN into Photoshop, although VS will do that,
in a sense (opens the scan in program of your choice soon as file is
saved). Generally just start scan, do something else in the meantime in
short snippits, like catch up on email or UseNet You can set VS to
ding when scan/save is complete for each one.


Just download VueScan and compare for yourself. Even with the watermark
you can see what's up. Now, a couple of the advanced features aren't
available in VueScan trial, like RAW files and etc, but it doesn't time
out, so there's no rush.

Mac

 

[Kennedy McEwen]

I have a LS-5000ED. The big problem I have with Nikon Scan is that it
can clip white and black points. It gives the user absolutley no
control over this.

Correction. You have not found the user control over this. ;-)
NS can adjust the percentage of the histogram that is pushed into the
black or white levels. It sounds as if you have not enabled
autoexposure for each frame in your preferences though.

 

[WD]

I have used auto-exposure. I have seen no adjustment for the percentage
of the histgram that is pushed into black or white. Do you know of one?
It seems that NS makes its own decision on this but if I am missing
something please let me know

WD

 

[Don]

Correction. You have not found the user control over this. ;-)

Which is quite amazing considering how clean and straightforward the
NikonScan user interface is!

I fear that such a user is bound to get totally and hopelessly lost in
VueScan's (so-called) "user interface" with its mess of (secretly)
interacting, incomprehensible and mislabeled options.

Don.

 

[Kennedy McEwen]

I have used auto-exposure. I have seen no adjustment for the percentage
of the histgram that is pushed into black or white.
RTFM!

Do you know of one?

Yes - RTFM!

It seems that NS makes its own decision on this but if I am missing
something please let me know

Try looking at Preferences|Advanced Color and from there select your
required White Point Target, Mid Point Target and Black Point Target for
master luminance or even each individual colour channel, and also set up
a suitably small Percentage Exclusion for the black and white points and
a sample point size of your choosing. All of that covers as much
adjustment range as you need to control saturation of processed black
and white points, however you also have the option of individually
adjusting the raw exposure default levels for the CCD by up to +/-2
stops in each channel with a further +/-2 stops globally, thus
preventing the CCD from overexposing the raw data.

 

[(Pete Cresswell)]

RE/

I have a Nikon LS-40 ED film scanner. Would you recommend VueScan or
the Nikon Twain driver through NikonScan or Photoshop Elements 2.0 as
my primary scanning software?

I've got a CoolScan 4000 which I've used to scan about 3,000 slides.

I gave up on Nikon Scan...seemed like the UI was done by somebody's 13-year old
kid.

VueScan served me well and I have no complaints.

There have been posts from people who know a lot more about scanning than I do
to the effect that NikonScan has some sort of technical superiority over
VueScan. Seemed moot to me at the time because VueScan was doing what I wanted
and the UI seemed to follow the Windows guidelines.

 

[Kennedy McEwen]

RE/

I've got a CoolScan 4000 which I've used to scan about 3,000 slides.

I gave up on Nikon Scan...seemed like the UI was done by somebody's 13-year old
kid.

VueScan served me well and I have no complaints.

There have been posts from people who know a lot more about scanning than I do
to the effect that NikonScan has some sort of technical superiority over
VueScan. Seemed moot to me at the time because VueScan was doing what
I wanted
and the UI seemed to follow the Windows guidelines.

"Seemed" being the operative term! Perhaps you should examine those
"Windows guidelines" before you repeat that statement! Vuescan
incorporates several significant departures from Windows convention and
whilst I wouldn't say that NikonScan follows that model, it is at least
as conventional as the software you chose to compare it with.

 

[WD]

I have already gone through all those menus, adjusting black point
target to (0,0,0) and white point target to (255,255,255). The problem
is that these
'targets' are applied after NS has already clipped the data.
Vuescan does not do this and Silverfast does not do this. They both
allow capturing the full dynamic range of the negative, NS in many
cases does not. A typical example is a snow scene. NS clips detail out
of the snow.
The detail is in the negative and can be scene with a loupe. Vuescan
allows capturing of this detail, Silverfast allows capturing of this
detail,
Nikonscan does not.
The only way I have found to get NS to capture the full
dynamic range is by fooling it. Specificly, I made up a special
'calibration negative' by taping a highly exposed piece of negative
onto an unexposed negative frame and
having NS autoexpose on this special frame. Then put in the actual
negative
I want to scan but with no auto-exposure. This forces NS to easily
capture
the dynamic range of a normally exposed negative. However, this is a
big pain in the neck operationally for obvious reasons.

 

[Bart van der Wolf]

I have already gone through all those menus, adjusting black
point target to (0,0,0) and white point target to (255,255,255).
The problem is that these 'targets' are applied after NS has
already clipped the data.

That has been the criticism with NikonScan for a long time already, and from
what you said the clipping still seems to be the case. Minolta Scan utility
does a similar thing (I have yet to check the latest version 1.1.5) when
scanning negatives, clipping of either shadows or highlights or both,
depending on the settings.

Vuescan does not do this and Silverfast does not do this.

And they are right. The software should not do so unless instructed by the
operator.

They both allow capturing the full dynamic range of the negative,
NS in many cases does not. A typical example is a snow scene.
NS clips detail out of the snow.
The detail is in the negative and can be scene with a loupe.
Vuescan allows capturing of this detail, Silverfast allows
capturing of this detail, Nikonscan does not.

Which makes me wonder what Kennedy McEwen is suggesting you missed in the
manual.

Bart

 

[Bart van der Wolf]

SNIP

Perhaps you should examine those "Windows guidelines"
before you repeat that statement! Vuescan incorporates
several significant departures from Windows convention
and whilst I wouldn't say that NikonScan follows that
model, it is at least as conventional as the software you
chose to compare it with.

I don't have too much of a problem with departure from "Windows guidelines"
if you mean User Interface conventions. They are pretty meaningless to e.g.
a Mac/Linux user anyway.

Functionality is more important, and inter-platform portability is obviously
a major benefit for Ed Hamrick because it cuts down on development time.
I also greatly value the single interface for all my scanners. I have so far
used VueScan on 6 different models, 5 different brands, and I never had to
re-learn the particulars of the interface to operate them.

There is also other specialized software that doesn't follow Windows GUI
conventions, and which allows to do similar tasks in fewer
key-strokes/mouse-clicks. Once learned (not a real issue for specialized
applications because they usually have other features than a word
processor), that results in higher productivity.

Just my 2 cents.

Bart

 

[Kennedy McEwen]

I have already gone through all those menus, adjusting black point
target to (0,0,0) and white point target to (255,255,255). The problem
is that these
'targets' are applied after NS has already clipped the data.

Yes, that is correct. However the Analogue Gain (actually exposure
time) adjusts the image prior to it even being output from the CCD, let
alone digitised.

Vuescan does not do this and Silverfast does not do this.

Yes, they do, and they also permit exposure control.

They both
allow capturing the full dynamic range of the negative, NS in many
cases does not.

Yes it does. The dynamic range of the scanner vastly exceeds the
density range that can be reproduced on negative film. In fact, with a
total of +/- 4 stops of exposure adjustment available in the analogue
gain, that in itself exceeds the density range possible to reproduce on
a colour negative.

A typical example is a snow scene. NS clips detail out
of the snow.
The detail is in the negative and can be scene with a loupe. Vuescan
allows capturing of this detail, Silverfast allows capturing of this
detail,
Nikonscan does not.

Well, I have never found any examples of the type of problem that you
indicate despite scanning lots of negatives which would seem likely to
fall into that category, including snow scenes and foaming white water
situations and off course, lots of little fluffy white clouds on clear
blue sky. It would appear to have been impossible to avoid the type of
situation you describe, but perhaps I have just never encountered a
suitably overexposed negative film. However I have just attempted to
simulate something as close as possible to it in order to test the
issue. I used a strip of negative film containing leader and 3 frames
and tried to scan the grossly overexposed leader, including the fuzzy
edge created by the film canister seal and part of the first frame.
Certainly, the first scan saturated the leader, but correctly exposed
the first frame. As expected however, the density was well within the
range of the analogue gain adjustment and there was no need at all to
fool the scanner, as you describe, to bring all of the overexposed
leader into the range.

I also did the same test with Vuescan and, whilst that exposed the film
for the highlights of the overexposed leader, the consequence was that
the first frame was saturated at black. This required similar exposure
adjustment to bring into range, but in the opposite direction of NS,
starting from correctly exposed highlights as opposed to correctly
exposed mid range.

Yes, Vuescan pulled the image into range on the first pass, but that is
what its key selling point is - getting a pretty close scan with minimum
operator skill. However what you are indicating is that it is not
possible to achieve the same image with Nikonscan, which is not true.

 

[Don]

That has been the criticism with NikonScan for a long time already, and from
what you said the clipping still seems to be the case.

Because the "great unwashed" that say that, don't know what they're
doing:

TURN OFF AUTO-EXPOSURE!!!

If there is clipping, that means the slide (I'm currently busy with
slides...) is probably overexposed in which case adjust Analog Gain.

Of course they ignore the auto-exposure setting when you tell them to
ignore it. (You may tell them to ignore it indirectly by saying, for
example, "scan as raw".)

Which makes me wonder what Kennedy McEwen is suggesting you missed in the
manual.

Not to speak for Kennedy, because he can and does that very eloquently
himself, but as far as Auto Exposure is concerned page 39 in
"ns3rmena1.pdf" tells you how to turn it off. If you prefer pictures,
there are some on pages 126 and 128...

Don.

 

[WD]

Analog Gain adjustment does not resolve this issue with Nikonscan.
When scanning negatives it merely lets you choose which end gets
clipped.
For example, with the snow scene I described, NS will clip the white
highlights as I described. If analog gain is adjusted to bring in the
white
point (so there is no significant highlight clipping), then the black
point gets clipped!! I like Nikonscan from an operational standpoint,
and I love ICE4. However, this fundamental flaw greatly restricts
its application.
It is certainly true that the scanner itself (LS-5000ED) has a dynamic
range which significantly exceeds that of the negatives I am referring
to.
The problem is that somewhere buried in its algorithms, NS makes a
decision
to make only a portion of that range available in the data output to
the user.
Unfortunately, it doesn't do this very well in many (but certainly not
all) cases. Vuescan and Silverfast let the user choose the range even
to the point
of including data far beyond the range of the negative being scanned
if the user so chooses. NS makes its internal decision and the user is
left to live with it for better or for worse.

 

[Dave]

Hi All,

This has turned into an interesting discussion. Many thanks.

I purchased VueScan Professional yesterday and I'm comparing it to
NikonScan 4.0.2 by playing with a "problem child" negative. It's fun,
but time consuming.

So far I think....

The User Interface on both programs is pretty goofy, but I think that
about a lot of software. I always have the delusion that I could do
better.

NikonScan is annoying because it rescans the negative for the preview
too often after I make changes. VueScan Pro just changes the stored
data.

I just read Wayne Fulton's tips on histograms and curves, so I think
the Curve/Histogram tool on NikonScan is pretty cool. The histogram
on VueScan is colorful and I've sorta figured out I can set the black
and white points by looking at just the black line and ignoring the
red, green and blue lines, but I haven't found a Curves tool or a way
to adjust those red, green and blue lines on the histogram. (I also
haven't found a Curves tool in PS Elements 2.0. What's up with that?)

Comparing the scans of my negative, NikonScan seems sharper and
Digital ICE works better than any level of IR Cleaning, but the colors
in VueScan seem much, much better. No matter what I do with
NikonScan, my face is always purple (In the photo, in the photo!) and
it wasn't when the photo was taken.

Agree? Disagree? Has anybody else compared both programs and formed
an opinion?

Cheers,
Dave