Vista's replacement for My Documents

[Charlie Russel - MVP]

frankly, given the character of the vista general newsgroups, I can't blame
anyone for posting here. It didn't say it wasn't, and it wasn't clearly off
topic for Vista 64 or otherwise.

--
Charlie.
http://msmvps.com/xperts64


the question did not mention 64.

(e-mail address removed)@sport.rr.com

This group is for all things 64-bit. Not for XP x64 only. This is an
appropriate newsgroup for Vista x64 questions that are truly 64-bit
specific. That's what we're here for.

--
Charlie.
http://msmvps.com/xperts64


why do you insist on cross posting between xp and vista for vista
questions.

there are plenty of people to provide help and answers in the vista news
groups. and not many in the xp groups that can help with vista.


(e-mail address removed)@sport.rr.com

Smart users of XP knew that My Documents was the best place to save
stuff.
I've forgotten the exact reason for that (maybe someone can jump in and
explain). I believe it had to do with what gets swept up when setting
System
Restore points.

In Vista, there is a Documents folder, but not My Documents. Is the
Documents folder the safe place to save stuff now in terms of what
System
Restore will save when a new restore point is set?

 

[Charlie Russel - MVP]

And yes, you may post here. We still love you DP.

 

[DP]

Back at ya, dawg.

And yes, you may post here. We still love you DP.

 

[mikeyhsd]

you should never STORE valuable data is system level folders. just like Inbox in WM.

best to use a second hard drive or other backup media and store it away from windows control.


(e-mail address removed)@sport.rr.com

I will have to disagree with that assertion.

Thanks for the thoughtful post. Let me say what I meant by the line from my
original post that you repeated. What I meant to say is that if you save
your stuff to My Documents, you know that you're saving it in a place where
it will be preserved by System Restore.

I agree with you that it's nice to put things where you want them. And I
still do that to a large extent. I guess what I meant was that when I know
something positively absolutely has to be there if I'm ever called upon to
do a system restore, the My Documents is the magic folder where I should be
saving things.

Yes, it's counterintuitive to save EVERYTHING to My Documents. It seems to
defeat the purpose of the folder system. Sort of like Using Quicken or MS
Money and then categorizing all of your expenditures as "miscellaneous."

One thing I've taken to doing (tho I don't do this exclusively) is to store
a lot of stuff in My Documents (or that's what I did with XP X64) in their
own folders and then to use desktop shortcuts to them. So in a way, I'm
categorizing things in folders, but using the safety of My Documents for
them.

One mild criticism of your post, though: It seems kind of silly to criticize
MS and other software manufacturers because you created a system in which My
Documents has a maximum size and then exceed the maximum. MS didn't create
it that way, so it's really a problem of your own making.

Thanks again. You raise good points.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

One mild criticism of your post, though: It seems kind of silly to

criticize MS and other software manufacturers because you created a system
in which My Documents has a maximum size and then exceed the maximum. MS
didn't create it that way, so it's really a problem of your own making.

I can't stress enough the fact that *my* files, that I put under My
Documents, total less than 2GB. The fact that I ran out of room on this
4.35GB partition is due to the presence of data *I* did not put there, and
*do not* want there, but still can't move elsewhere because some silly apps
decided that this is where they were gonna store them files without ever
asking me.

I do honestly think that such scenarios represent poor decisions made by
software developers (or, rather, whoever designed the software). I'm saying
this as a developer myself.

 

[Richard Urban]

Most applications can be directed where they store files that you create
within the respective programs.

I don't know why you are upset because some programs follow the Windows
protocol? Programs are "supposed" to store files that you create from within
in the My Documents , or now - the Documents, folder. That way you know
where they are and are easy to backup.

The programs themselves must never install themselves to that folder
however. If it does, it is either poorly written or someone directed the
installer to put the program there.

Another protocol is that all programs are to be installed to Program Files
in the Windows partition. If you don't like that, you can change it also.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban MVP
Microsoft Windows Shell/User

 

[DP]

True. In addition to what I described below, I also back them up onto CDs and external drives.
you should never STORE valuable data is system level folders. just like Inbox in WM.

best to use a second hard drive or other backup media and store it away from windows control.


(e-mail address removed)@sport.rr.com

I will have to disagree with that assertion.

Thanks for the thoughtful post. Let me say what I meant by the line from my
original post that you repeated. What I meant to say is that if you save
your stuff to My Documents, you know that you're saving it in a place where
it will be preserved by System Restore.

I agree with you that it's nice to put things where you want them. And I
still do that to a large extent. I guess what I meant was that when I know
something positively absolutely has to be there if I'm ever called upon to
do a system restore, the My Documents is the magic folder where I should be
saving things.

Yes, it's counterintuitive to save EVERYTHING to My Documents. It seems to
defeat the purpose of the folder system. Sort of like Using Quicken or MS
Money and then categorizing all of your expenditures as "miscellaneous."

One thing I've taken to doing (tho I don't do this exclusively) is to store
a lot of stuff in My Documents (or that's what I did with XP X64) in their
own folders and then to use desktop shortcuts to them. So in a way, I'm
categorizing things in folders, but using the safety of My Documents for
them.

One mild criticism of your post, though: It seems kind of silly to criticize
MS and other software manufacturers because you created a system in which My
Documents has a maximum size and then exceed the maximum. MS didn't create
it that way, so it's really a problem of your own making.

Thanks again. You raise good points.

 

[Dshai]

I think perhaps if you don't like the question that starts, or maybe continues the string then you should close it and go to the next string, maybe there you'll find Q&A that more suits your idea of what this NG is all about.

--

Dshai

Life is only limited by those living it...

the question did not mention 64.

(e-mail address removed)@sport.rr.com

This group is for all things 64-bit. Not for XP x64 only. This is an
appropriate newsgroup for Vista x64 questions that are truly 64-bit
specific. That's what we're here for.

--
Charlie.
http://msmvps.com/xperts64


why do you insist on cross posting between xp and vista for vista questions.

there are plenty of people to provide help and answers in the vista news
groups. and not many in the xp groups that can help with vista.


(e-mail address removed)@sport.rr.com

Smart users of XP knew that My Documents was the best place to save stuff.
I've forgotten the exact reason for that (maybe someone can jump in and
explain). I believe it had to do with what gets swept up when setting
System
Restore points.

In Vista, there is a Documents folder, but not My Documents. Is the
Documents folder the safe place to save stuff now in terms of what System
Restore will save when a new restore point is set?

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

I don't know why you are upset because some programs follow the Windows

protocol? Programs are "supposed" to store **files that you create from
within** in the My Documents

["**" emphasis mine]

I have an "EA Games" folder in My Documents. *I* didn't create it, some
game did, and it never asked me whether it was okay, and it doesn't provide
any means to move it elsewhere. I don't want it there, and I don't want it
to be part of my regular backup set.

I have a "My Music" folder in My Documents. *I* didn't create it, yet I
can't get rid of it; I already have a separate partition on which I dump all
my music files. I don't want it under My Documents; there's no point in
backing up MP3s when they've actually been copied *from* my CDs originally
onto my hard drive. They don't belong on my regular backup set.

I have a "My Pictures" folder in My Documents. *I* didn't create it, yet I
can't get rid of it; I don't keep a collection of pictures on my hard drive.

I have a "My Received Files" folder in My Documents. *I* didn't create it;
if someone sends me some file through Messenger, it'll get put elsewhere;
where, exactly, depends on the nature of the file. I always use 'Save
As...' when someone sends me a file. It would be silly to let all the files
that everybody sends me pile up in one folder.

I have a "My Videos" folder in My Documents. *I* didn't create it, yet I
can't get rid of it; if I have important videos, they're already on CDs/DVDs
and they don't need to be part of my regular backup set.

I had an "Updater5" folder in My Documents (exact name might not be
accurate; this is going from memory). After much mucking around, I figured
out Adobe Acrobat Reader creates it (without asking me), and the option to
disable that is buried in its options. Whatever crap normally ends up there
is not any file I created myself, and doesn't need to be part of my regular
backup set.

Do you see a pattern here? *That's* why I'm upset to find stuff I didn't
create under My Documents.

If a file is created without prompting me for a path/name, *it does not
belong under My Documents*--ever. No ifs or buts about it.

Any binary file that contain data I don't recognize, need or use has no
business going under "My Documents".

The only thing(s) that should be allowed under My Documents is anything I've
saved there myself after going through a 'Save As...' dialog box, or dragged
with Explorer.

If only that was the case, backup routines could consist of a single click,
without having to build exclusion lists.

 

[Richard Urban]

If you do not want the default Windows folders in My Documents, design
another operating system and do as you wish with it. An O/S has to start
somewhere and that is where Microsoft has chosen to have these things. They
also "strongly" encourage the software manufacturers to go along with this
scheme. The majority have.

You can not delete system folders. They will be recreated automatically.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban MVP
Microsoft Windows Shell/User

I don't know why you are upset because some programs follow the Windows
protocol? Programs are "supposed" to store **files that you create from
within** in the My Documents

["**" emphasis mine]

I have an "EA Games" folder in My Documents. *I* didn't create it, some
game did, and it never asked me whether it was okay, and it doesn't
provide any means to move it elsewhere. I don't want it there, and I
don't want it to be part of my regular backup set.

I have a "My Music" folder in My Documents. *I* didn't create it, yet I
can't get rid of it; I already have a separate partition on which I dump
all my music files. I don't want it under My Documents; there's no point
in backing up MP3s when they've actually been copied *from* my CDs
originally onto my hard drive. They don't belong on my regular backup
set.

I have a "My Pictures" folder in My Documents. *I* didn't create it, yet
I can't get rid of it; I don't keep a collection of pictures on my hard
drive.

I have a "My Received Files" folder in My Documents. *I* didn't create
it; if someone sends me some file through Messenger, it'll get put
elsewhere; where, exactly, depends on the nature of the file. I always
use 'Save As...' when someone sends me a file. It would be silly to let
all the files that everybody sends me pile up in one folder.

I have a "My Videos" folder in My Documents. *I* didn't create it, yet I
can't get rid of it; if I have important videos, they're already on
CDs/DVDs and they don't need to be part of my regular backup set.

I had an "Updater5" folder in My Documents (exact name might not be
accurate; this is going from memory). After much mucking around, I
figured out Adobe Acrobat Reader creates it (without asking me), and the
option to disable that is buried in its options. Whatever crap normally
ends up there is not any file I created myself, and doesn't need to be
part of my regular backup set.

Do you see a pattern here? *That's* why I'm upset to find stuff I didn't
create under My Documents.

If a file is created without prompting me for a path/name, *it does not
belong under My Documents*--ever. No ifs or buts about it.

Any binary file that contain data I don't recognize, need or use has no
business going under "My Documents".

The only thing(s) that should be allowed under My Documents is anything
I've saved there myself after going through a 'Save As...' dialog box, or
dragged with Explorer.

If only that was the case, backup routines could consist of a single
click, without having to build exclusion lists.

 

[Austin Ehlers]

If you do not want the default Windows folders in My Documents, design
another operating system and do as you wish with it. An O/S has to start
somewhere and that is where Microsoft has chosen to have these things. They
also "strongly" encourage the software manufacturers to go along with this
scheme. The majority have.

No, these are bad programs. Only things *directly* created by the
user belong in the Documents folder. Everything else belongs in
either User\AppData\Local\, User\AppData\Roaming, or c:\programdata.

Austin

 

[Adam Albright]

No, these are bad programs. Only things *directly* created by the
user belong in the Documents folder. Everything else belongs in
either User\AppData\Local\, User\AppData\Roaming, or c:\programdata.

Austin

Really? Why would you say that? I got over 1 TB worth of data files
and NONE of them are on my root drive in any default 'Documents
folder' for one very simple reason. There's not enough room. So I have
all my appliations put my data elsewhere on my drives E, F, G, H, and
X, Y, Z.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

If you do not want the default Windows folders in My Documents, design

another operating system and do as you wish with it. [...]
Richard Urban MVP
Microsoft Windows Shell/User

Y'know, I always make a concerted effort not to further the common belief
that all MVPs have a bit of an attitude, but you guys are doing such a fine
job doing it yourselves. Best we ignore that and move on to the matter at
hand.

It all boils down to this:

My problem: Unwanted application files in the user's personal folders.
My solution: Don't design an OS so it invites third-party applications to
mess with the user's personal folders to begin with.

With statements like "the OS has to start somewhere", it sounds to me like
you're under the impression that it's always been that way. I can't help
but believe that you haven't been involved in this industry for very long.
If you were, you'd remember that none of the pre-9x Windows versions tried
to force any particular personal file management scheme on the users, and we
all somehow managed to keep ourselves organized. It all started going
downhill when the shell tried to be smarter than the user, and introduced
these "conveniences" that were ripe for abuse. It's self-defeating, really.

 

[Richard Urban]

I have NEVER EVER found application files in the My Documents folder. They
should NEVER go there. It some application is, in fact placing it's program
files there, it is a real crappy program. Since Windows 95 My Documents has
been for documents that a program "creates". Any program that you install
should place user created documents in this folder by default.

If a program does otherwise, and places user created documents elsewhere,
the program is not following accepted protocol!

A user may be able to change where these user created documents are stored,
on a program by program basis - IF the program has that option in it's
preferences section. If it does not, the default should be My Documents.

Many programs will create a sub directory within My Documents for user
created files. It makes it easier for the user to find specific files by
program.

Other than the fact that YOU can't do what YOU want, I see nothing wrong -
or incorrect - with the way Microsoft has set up their methodology since
Windows 95.

Sorry if you are not happy. If you can't live with the situation, change the
situation. I sure can't.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban MVP
Microsoft Windows Shell/User

If you do not want the default Windows folders in My Documents, design
another operating system and do as you wish with it. [...]
Richard Urban MVP
Microsoft Windows Shell/User

Y'know, I always make a concerted effort not to further the common belief
that all MVPs have a bit of an attitude, but you guys are doing such a
fine job doing it yourselves. Best we ignore that and move on to the
matter at hand.

It all boils down to this:

My problem: Unwanted application files in the user's personal folders.
My solution: Don't design an OS so it invites third-party applications to
mess with the user's personal folders to begin with.

With statements like "the OS has to start somewhere", it sounds to me like
you're under the impression that it's always been that way. I can't help
but believe that you haven't been involved in this industry for very long.
If you were, you'd remember that none of the pre-9x Windows versions tried
to force any particular personal file management scheme on the users, and
we all somehow managed to keep ourselves organized. It all started going
downhill when the shell tried to be smarter than the user, and introduced
these "conveniences" that were ripe for abuse. It's self-defeating,
really.

 

[Richard Urban]

I have 72 directories/folders within My Documents. For the most part, these
directories are created by various programs I have installed, and are
initially empty.

An example of the above is: Paint Shop Pro 9 creates about 15 empty folders
where various custom effects that "you" create are stored for later use.

I have only two folders that I feel shouldn't be there. They are:

Windows Media Player 9 - Fun Packs - store executive files in My
Documents/Creativity Fun Packs. This is a major violation of the accepted
protocols and the violator is Microsoft themselves.

I installed a contractor estimating program a few years ago. This placed all
the program template files (over 1000) in My Documents. These should have
been in the programs folder. It was a crappy program to begin with.

Other than that, everything is as it should be in my estimation. I have
hundreds of folders and subfolders that are empty - until I create and save
a file using a particular program. Then the file is saved to the particular
folder within My Documents that has been hard coded into the program.

Anything that I create, using any program on my computer, is included in a
backup of My Documents. I like it. I exclude folders that I don't want
backed up. Any decent backup program will allow you to do such.

The backup program that comes with Vista is sub optimal, in my opinion.



--


Regards,

Richard Urban MVP
Microsoft Windows Shell/User

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

I have NEVER EVER found application files in the My Documents folder.They

should NEVER go there. It some application is, in fact placing it's
program files there, it is a real crappy program.

YES! That's the problem I have with the whole system. It's being abused,
even by MS's own tools: Visual Studio 2005 puts a bunch of files and
folders there without asking me during installation. These files are static
and will get recreated anyway if your system gets hosed and you have to
reinstall the OS and the program. So why lump these static files in my
personal data file folder?

SQL Server 2005 does that too. I've already mentioned Acrobat Reader's
'updater5' folder, and some game folders. I currently also have another "My
Web Sites" folder (not too sure which application created it, probably
VS2005 again).

If I wanted to use My Documents as my sole repository for regular backups
(and I'd love to), I would have to rifle through it every single time to get
rid of files/folder I haven't created (or want) and are just wasting
additional space needed for my backup set. Actually, given that some of
these are program settings, if I do delete some of these files, some
programs might stop working entirely (makes sense, it's not terribly wise to
delete program setting files--in the best case scenario the program will
revert to defaults/recreate the files). So instead I have to build an
exclusion list.

Since Windows 95 My Documents has been for documents that a program
"creates". Any program that you install should place user created
documents in this folder by default.

Yes. But things like application settings aren't "user-created documents".
Static template files that are created automatically when you install a
program aren't "user-created documents".

If a program does otherwise, and places user created documents elsewhere,
the program is not following accepted protocol!

That, I don't have a problem with--nowadays most programs do stick with
putting documents under My Documents. The problem is that they put a lot
more in there than really belongs. I suspect %APPDATA% was created for that
reason, and I *really* wish more programs would use it instead of My
Documents.

A user may be able to change where these user created documents are
stored, on a program by program basis - IF the program has that option in
it's preferences section. If it does not, the default should be My
Documents.

Again, I have no problem with that. It's the other "non-user created
document" files that I don't want to see there.

Many programs will create a sub directory within My Documents for user
created files. It makes it easier for the user to find specific files by
program.

I have no problem with that either.

Other than the fact that YOU can't do what YOU want, I see nothing wrong -
or incorrect - with the way Microsoft has set up their methodology since
Windows 95.

Sorry if you are not happy. If you can't live with the situation, change
the situation. I sure can't.

Look, ultimately I don't have a problem with the concept of having a My
Documents folder. All I have a problem with is that there are way too many
programs out there that abuse it, and there are already other folders that
have been introduced for that purpose--which a lot of application developers
choose to ignore.

 

[Homer J. Simpson]

Anything that I create, using any program on my computer, is included in a

backup of My Documents. I like it. I exclude folders that I don't want
backed up. Any decent backup program will allow you to do such.

Ideally, I would drag and drop anything and everything under My Documents on
a blank DVD, without having to deselect files/folders individually. Right
now I can't do that because the stuff I didn't put there makes the whole My
Documents folder exceed 4.35GB.

The backup program that comes with Vista is sub optimal, in my opinion.

:-D Not an issue--MS will have dropped support for XP before I move to
Vista. Hopefully by then, the next OS will be out, correcting the usability
mistakes introduced in Vista.

 

[Guest]

This, of course, can be changed and they can be included under "Documents",
or in my case D:\My Documents.

I dual boot and have made this change for the purpose of being able to use
one store when booted into either Windows XP or Vista. It works fine.

--


Regards,

Richard Urban MVP
Microsoft Windows Shell/User

 

[Guest]

Richard,
How did you redirect Vista to use another drive:/folder for your
documents. In XP, you could do this by changing the location of the My
Documents folder. I haven't discovered how to do this in Vista (ultimate).

Thanks

 

[Andre Da Costa[ActiveWin]]

Click Start > right click Documents > Properties > Location (tab) type the
path to the drive or foldr and click OK.