Ubuntu

A

Andy Axnot

On Fri, 13 Jan 2006 06:30:22 -0800, Bill Turner wrote:
\
I just received the two disks yesterday and installed it.
I don't care at all for the ugly brown theme on everything but I suppose
that can be changed.

It can be changed. And you are officially the one millionth person to
complain about the "ugly brown theme". Congratulations! :)

Andy
 
B

Bill Turner

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Very well said.

I have the feeling this represents a sea change in the Linuxian's
attitudes. Wish they had taken this approach from the start instead of
trying to convince folks how wonderful Linux was. Would have saved
many, many wasted hours.

Bill T.
 
M

Mark Carter

Harvey said:
If it's not Windows -- which it isn't -- it's not going to be able
to replace Windows on a large number of desktops in the forseeable
future.

Within the last year, I got my dad connected to the internet. Since it
was all new to him and he didn't have any preconceptions, I thought I'd
start with Linux.

I installed Slackware, and did a few modifications to make it more
user-friendly. He didn't like it much. Eventually I conceded defeat, and
installed Windows 98, which he liked much better. One day he completely
messed up Windows, and I decided to do a re-install. I went back to
Linux for one more try, but "where's the little icon" and "it's too
complicated", he complained.

He uses an old machine. Internet Explorer works better than Firefox, and
Windows 98 works better than Linux. So as far as my dad is concerned,
Windows rocks, Linux sucks.

I, personally, am a fan of Linux, and don't have a problem with it. But
basically, Windows wins on the useability stakes as far as novice users
are concerned. In one sense, the concept of Windows is a good idea - a
simple and easy single-user system - kind of like an evil and hideously
deformed version of the Amiga.

I've long held the opinion that computing basically plateaued in the mid
90's, and then just got bloated after that. OK, a bit of an
oversimplification admittedly. I bought my first PC in 1996, a P133
which came with Windows 95. It served its purposes, and didn't seem
particularly slow.
 
M

Mark Carter

Craig said:
3) Ubuntu in a lan'd environ...
.a) implementation of file-/directory-sharing (using samba) was
incomplete,

Interesting comment. I was thinking of using my Linux machine as a kind
of NAS. Although it was easy to set up Ubuntu Samba to access shared
folders on Windows XP, doing the reverse is, as yet, an unsolved problem
to me. Curiously, Slackware was much easier in this regard.

GUIs are something of a two-edged sword. One of their great advantages
is "discoverability" - they definitely have an edge over configuration
files. I am a programmer, and an admirer of the command line, but one
thing that I really don't like is adminning. I am perfectly happy with
things Just Working, and prefer not to endlessly dicker around with
configuration files. This is where Linux has a big minus. The problem
with configuration files is that one is often wondering WTF one is
supposed to be typing in in order to get something to work.
 
E

El Gee

Mark Carter said:
90's, and then just got bloated after that. OK, a bit of an
oversimplification admittedly. I bought my first PC in 1996, a P133
which came with Windows 95. It served its purposes, and didn't seem
particularly slow.

Same here, only mine was a P-120 with 32 Megs of RAM. I understand
COMPLETELY.



--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
El Gee // www.mistergeek.com <><
Know Christ, Know Peace - No Christ, No Peace
Remove .yourhat to reply
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
M

Mark Carter

32 Megs ... oo, the luxury. Mine was 16MB, and I were grateful ;)


My main computer at the moment is an Athlon 1600+, purchased in 2002. It
does raise the serious question as to what on earth is going on. For all
the Microsoft conspiracies, Linux doesn't do much better.
You understand because you are not gamers.

Indeed, I am not a gamer. But even on this issue there seems to be an
issue of more polygons rendered per second than of actual playability.
My favourite game of all time is Doom (followed by Duke Nukem) - and
these are quite old games.

Talking of playability ... people might want to check out GridRunner:
http://www.llamasoft.co.uk/gridrunner.php
It's a demo, but a fairly playable one (the full version is apparently 5
quid). The game was written by Jeff Minter, a "legendary" games
programmer, if that's not too much hyperbole. He has a page on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Minter
 
R

Roger Johansson

Mark said:
configuration files. This is where Linux has a big minus. The problem
with configuration files is that one is often wondering WTF one is
supposed to be typing in in order to get something to work.

There is a need for a program which presents the possible options to
the user, so the user can choose by marking the wanted options. This
program then writes the configuration file.

This method inserts a graphical user interface between the user and the
configuration files, and that makes linux more user friendly, like most
windows programs already are.

For every configuration file, a user GUI which explains and presents
the options.
Or a more general config file editor which has the information needed
to setup many config files.

As the number of linux users increases there will be a much stronger
need for hardware makers to write drivers for their hardware.
The need for better user interfaces also becomes a reason to advance
linux, from the nerd level where the few users like to do things in
complicated ways, to show off, to the general user level, when
grandmothers and all kinds of people want better (easier) user
interfaces.
 
M

Mark Carter

Roger said:
This method inserts a graphical user interface between the user and the
configuration files, and that makes linux more user friendly, like most
windows programs already are.

I'm in two minds about this. GUIs that act as a buffer between with
configuration files and the user are present in Red Hat (I don't use Red
Hat, though), and they seem to be of a somewhat vexed issue -
configuration files are often mangled, and hand-coded values are often
scrapped.

There's that old joke about what would OSs be if they were airlines:
http://paul.merton.ox.ac.uk/computing/os-airlines.html
Here's the one about Unix Airline:
Each passenger brings a piece of the airplane and a box of tools to the
airport. They gather on the tarmac, arguing constantly about what kind
of plane they want to build and how to put it together. Eventually, they
build several different aircraft, but give them all the same name. Some
passengers actually reach their destinations.All passengers believe they
got there.

That joke epitomises perhaps the greatest strengths, and greatest
weaknesses, about UNIX. Lots of parts put together to form something
very useful - still, you have to assemble the parts yourself.
For every configuration file, a user GUI which explains and presents
the options.
Or a more general config file editor which has the information needed
to setup many config files.

As the number of linux users increases there will be a much stronger
need for hardware makers to write drivers for their hardware.

My hope is that they'll be some kind of tipping point for Linux, when
hardware vendors realise that there really is money to be made in Linux,
and that it's profitable for them to make a real crack at the drivers
issue. My worry is that manufacturers are more concerned with secrecy
than with usability. They seem to prefer to release binary drivers, when
sources would be better. What would be useful would be open hardware
standards that manufacturers would adhere to. A modem would be "just a
modem", a monitor would be "just a monitor". But manufacturers don't see
it this way, they see their hardware as special, needing secret
protection. It kind-of reminds me of the early days of engineering,
where something as simple as screws were not standardised. Each
manufacturer had screws whose threads were of different pitch, and
suchlike. Complete nightmare.

I think that computers still need much time to mature. I think it's when
we can no longer squeeze any more power out of the chips that we'll
start to see things settle down. We should hopefully see things designed
better, rather than with more gee-wiz features.

The need for better user interfaces also becomes a reason to advance
linux, from the nerd level where the few users like to do things in
complicated ways, to show off, to the general user level, when
grandmothers and all kinds of people want better (easier) user
interfaces.

Usability is something that appears to be cropping up more and more in
Linux circles; and not all are happy with the direction it is taking.
Sun, for example, are trying to put together the next generation user
interface, but they seem to think animated buttons, 3-dimensions, and
semi-transparent windows is the way to go. I, for one, think they are
missing the point. Eye-candy is not usability.

I'm not sure what the key to usability is. Maybe UNIX needs more
"policies" - which should help standardisation and integration. Maybe a
Benevolent Dictator For Life (Mark Shuttleworth of Ubuntu is a prime
candidate here) would be useful. Still, I know it's likely to be a
controversial issue. As soon as you say that UNIX needs to set policies,
you'll have a crowd of people who state that it's UNIX's strength that
it doesn't set policies.

It will be interesting to see how computers shape up over the next
twenty years.
 
H

Harvey Van Sickle

On 14 Jan 2006, Mark Carter wrote

-snip interesting and clear-headed discussion-

I'm not sure what the key to usability is. Maybe UNIX needs
more "policies" - which should help standardisation and
integration. Maybe a Benevolent Dictator For Life (Mark
Shuttleworth of Ubuntu is a prime candidate here) would be
useful. Still, I know it's likely to be a controversial issue.
As soon as you say that UNIX needs to set policies, you'll
have a crowd of people who state that it's UNIX's strength
that it doesn't set policies.

It will be interesting to see how computers shape up over the
next twenty years.

It would have been interesting to see what sort of GUI would have
been used if Google had -- as falsely rumoured before CES -- backed
a cheap, Internet-access machine running on Linux. That sort of
project (like the MIT "hundred dollar laptop") will eventually
bring the issue of configurability by non-core Linux users to the
fore.

Whatever solution those projects come up with will, I think, become
as much a de facto standard as MS has managed to do with current
desktops.
 
M

Marten Kemp

Roger said:
There is a need for a program which presents the possible options to
the user, so the user can choose by marking the wanted options. This
program then writes the configuration file.

This method inserts a graphical user interface between the user and the
configuration files, and that makes linux more user friendly, like most
windows programs already are.

For every configuration file, a user GUI which explains and presents
the options.
Or a more general config file editor which has the information needed
to setup many config files.

A user GUI, or something as simple as a curses-based script, that:
-presents the options with a less-cryptic description of what they are
(a sentence fragment is sufficient),
-provides a *useful* context-driven help facility (the Debian
menuconfig facility comes to mind),
-performs checking for mutually-exclusive options, and
-asks for confirmation for values outside of the first sigma.

The "configuration generator" needs to know the location and
format of the configuration file (of course), and should display
these to the user. After a while the user may not need these
training wheels and will be able to attack the config file
with The Editor Of His/Her/Its Choice.

Hmm. Clearly, what we need is a config-file-description language
and an interpreter that reads the original config file and its
description, presents it to the user and writes the updated
config file. From my cursory knowledge of the Linux community
I feel that there's probably something like that out there
already (I try my best not to be surprised by the wide range of
stuff out there).

--
-- Marten Kemp
(Fix name and ISP to reply)
-=-=-
.... The first myth of management is that it exists.
The second myth of management is that success equals skill.
-- Robert Heller, quoted by Bill Marcum on comp.os.linux.misc
* TagZilla 0.059 * http://tagzilla.mozdev.org
 
M

Mark Carter

Marten said:
Hmm. Clearly, what we need is a config-file-description language
and an interpreter that reads the original config file and its
description, presents it to the user and writes the updated
config file. From my cursory knowledge of the Linux community
I feel that there's probably something like that out there
already (I try my best not to be surprised by the wide range of
stuff out there).

There probably is.

As far as config files are concerned, one solution might be Lisp
s-exprs. Also, one might choose to use INI files a la Windows. Or
perhaps even a Windows registry. I believe there was something called
Electra - basically a registry for Linux. I did a quick Google for it,
and came across a discussion
http://www.redhat.com/archives/fedora-devel-list/2004-November/msg00071.html
which probably sums up the core tensions in such a venture:

Since a registry provides a standard API for writing/reading
configuration data, configuration utilities become almost micky mouse
to write - you don't have to learn the rules of all the different
configuration types (# for comment, or // for comment, or tab
deliminated key value pairs, or an xml scheme, or whatever).

I'm still not sure why this discussion is going on here...at the
distribution level.
Individual major projects will have to buy into this to be useful. The
distribution maintainers is not going to be able to dictate to
individual projects how to craft configuration schemes. Are there on
going discussions upstream inside major component projects like xorg
or apache about this approach? If this isn't being discussed seriously
by large projects developers with large obnoxious configuration files,
I don't see the point in discussing this as part of ongoing general
Fedora development discussion. If you expect Fedora to provide an
Electra based configuration for something like xorg in Core, without
upstream xorg buying into it...you're nuts.

--- end ---



As an aside, in about '97, I bought a book about Linux that had
Slackware on CD. The book was divided into 2 parts: one written by the
author, which was an intallation guide, and a couple of HOWTOs, which
were also useful as installation guides. The author suggested that one
consult the second part of the book in case of ongoing difficulties.
The problem here is, when one runs into difficulties, it is often
difficult identify what the particular problem is, and how to remedy it.
This is the central question in configuring systems, and something that
I think UNIX does particularly poorly. The problem is not so much in the
tedium of editing a file - but knowing what to edit and with what
information.

I sometimes see similar situations on Linux newsgroups. Someone has a
problem, and they're told to read this HOWTO, that HOWTO, and the other
HOWTO. It's just a sea of information - there's no coherent path to
solving the problem.

Wouldn't want you to think I'm a UNIX-hater, though!
 
B

Bill Turner

Marten said:
something as simple as a curses-based script
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I use a verbal curses-based script on my computer often. Doesn't seem
to help. :)

Bill T.
 
D

Doc

32 Megs ... oo, the luxury. Mine was 16MB, and I were grateful ;)

My first computer had 64k, and used cassette tapes for program/data
storage.

My first IBM compatible had 256k, twin 360k floppies and no hard disk.
 
W

Whirled Peas

Anybody have any experiences to share about Ubuntu? Good, Bad,
Indifferent?

I've been using ubuntu 5.10 since early November as my sole OS. It does
everything I need my PC to do: Email; Web; VPN into my office; Remote
desktop control from my office; FTP server; watching DVDs; burning
CDs/DVDs; playing games; word processing; whathaveyou.

The online forums are the best of any distro I've encountered. They are
*very* supportive of newbies like me :)

It installed without a hitch, recognized all my hardware and installed all
the drivers save for the latest nVidia drivers. The automatix script
available in the forums automates that install plus numerous others for
multimedia codecs, Opera web browser or Firefox 1.5.

I have been very pleased with it and have no intention of returning to
Windows.
 
D

David

My first computer had 64k, and used cassette tapes for program/data
storage.

My first IBM compatible had 256k, twin 360k floppies and no hard disk.

My first computer, bought in 1978, was a Sharp PC1211, a handheld with
a single line LCD as a display. It had 750 bytes of memory and was
powered by two, four-bit processors talking to each other. It was
programmable in BASIC.

My second, a Sharp PC1500, had 2.5Kb of RAM and I added an 8Kb memory
stick. It used a Sharp processor, a variation of the Z80, had a BASIC
interpreter built-in and you could program it in machine code.

The third, bought in 1984. was an Amstrad CPC 464 with 64Kb RAM, an
inbuilt tape drive and I purchased a 3" disc drive as an add-on. 3"
is correct BTW. It was a Sony drive produced as a sample for IBM but
IBM adopted the 3.5" drive instead so Amstrad grabbed these drives as
a job lot. The disc was a flippy with 180Kb on each side.

My first IBM had 640Kb RAM, twin floppies and Hercules graphics.
--
David
Remove "farook" to reply
At the bottom of the application where it says
"sign here". I put "Sagittarius"
E-mail: justdas at iinet dot net dot au
 
E

El Gee

32 Megs ... oo, the luxury. Mine was 16MB, and I were grateful ;)


My main computer at the moment is an Athlon 1600+, purchased in 2002.
It does raise the serious question as to what on earth is going on.
For all the Microsoft conspiracies, Linux doesn't do much better.


Indeed, I am not a gamer. But even on this issue there seems to be an
issue of more polygons rendered per second than of actual playability.
My favourite game of all time is Doom (followed by Duke Nukem) - and
these are quite old games.

Talking of playability ... people might want to check out GridRunner:
http://www.llamasoft.co.uk/gridrunner.php
It's a demo, but a fairly playable one (the full version is apparently
5 quid). The game was written by Jeff Minter, a "legendary" games
programmer, if that's not too much hyperbole. He has a page on
Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Minter

The issue as I see it is the need for "eye candy". Ever see Menuet? A
full GUI on a floppy. What about BeOS? Pretty small, even with eye
candy. Also the need for more and more drivers because of the huge
assortment of hardware that most OS's try to support.

Linux is far from perfect, and I disagree that it is a hobbyist OS. It
can be a hobby, but I try do as much on the Linux box as I can. BeOS,
is a Hobby OS, so is Menuet, ReactOS, Syllable, or SkyOS, but not Linux.
While Billy's market share is huge, that was with good marketing, not a
superior product.

Ok, now that we are WAY OT, I will end my part.

--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
El Gee // www.mistergeek.com <><
Know Christ, Know Peace - No Christ, No Peace
Remove .yourhat to reply
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 
R

Roger Johansson

El said:
The issue as I see it is the need for "eye candy". Ever see Menuet? A
full GUI on a floppy.

Is that Menuet somehow related to Menuet the web browser, from
University of Minnesota?

My first attempts to connect to internet were done with the web browser
Menuet.
I didn't have windows so I used a web browser for DOS.
It worked so so, not good, but not totally useless either.

I used DOS and the multitasking environment Deskview.
I ran a BBS day and night for 5 years and I could use my own computer
at the same time. We had an amateur network called FIDO-net in those
times, in 1996 we had over 35000 connected computers all over the
world. We could send email (netmail), we had discussion groups like
usenet, and you could download files from these BBS computers.

The real internet was opened for private persons in 1996 in my country,
and FIDO-net quickly lost most of its users. Some of the swedish top
administrators of internet today are my old friends from the FIDO-net
time.

My first computers, a 16k Sinclair Spectrum, a Sharp 1401 pocket
computer/calculator, which I still use, and a homebuilt Z80 system with
2k of static RAM.
 
E

El Gee

Is that Menuet somehow related to Menuet the web browser, from
University of Minnesota?

I do not know. Here is the link:
http://www.menuetos.net/
My first attempts to connect to internet were done with the web
browser Menuet.
I didn't have windows so I used a web browser for DOS.
It worked so so, not good, but not totally useless either.

I used DOS and the multitasking environment Deskview.
I ran a BBS day and night for 5 years and I could use my own computer
at the same time. We had an amateur network called FIDO-net in those
times, in 1996 we had over 35000 connected computers all over the
world. We could send email (netmail), we had discussion groups like
usenet, and you could download files from these BBS computers.
I had friends in the US who used Fido-Net.
The real internet was opened for private persons in 1996 in my
country, and FIDO-net quickly lost most of its users. Some of the
swedish top administrators of internet today are my old friends from
the FIDO-net time.
I started using the internet in 1995 I believe. I was not a very good
PC person then.
My first computers, a 16k Sinclair Spectrum, a Sharp 1401 pocket
computer/calculator, which I still use, and a homebuilt Z80 system
with 2k of static RAM.
Those were the days ... no big machines.



--
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
El Gee // www.mistergeek.com <><
Know Christ, Know Peace - No Christ, No Peace
Remove .yourhat to reply
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 

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