SimplyMEPIS 6.0 Linux Final Release:

R

Roger Johansson

Does this explain to you why Windows has dominated the market? Its simple
and just works!
Click to expand...

Windows has had more resources for a longer time, and, most important
of all, a leadership that can allocate resources into areas like
ergonomics, making it easy to use, standard interfaces, a centralized
theme control system,

while linux has had resources allocated by themselves, programmers,
programmers and more programmers, no overall design control people, no
overall interface control people.

But linux is getting there too, as they start to listen to user
complaints and do something about it instead of as the first generation
linux programmers did, they told users who complained to get used to
it, learn to edit config files, etc..

It takes more time for voluntary organisations to become complete in
all areas needed, especially if the first thousand volunteers are
arrogant young programmers.

I haven't tried knoppix for more than a year and I heard they have a
new version out.

There will be competition between the best linux versions, and that
will help develop them in areas they had not thought about so much
before.

As soon as one or more linux versions are taking substantial parts of
the market microsoft will have to start giving away windows too, and
all other programs will be freeware too, nobody will pay for software
anymore.

We already have a big discussion in europe over free sharing of music,
where even governments are starting to lean over to to allowing free
distribution.
They want the votes of hundreds of millions of young people, and they
can afford to ignore the voice of the record companies.

We are on the way into a free information world, and computer programs
are considered as free information too.

And that is exactly what this world needs, free information exchange,
after thousands of years of religious taboos and information monopoly
by the rich and the church.

Today all you need to start your own global tv channel is a video
camera, and have something to say and know how to present the material
better than most other film makers.
 
B

Bill Turner

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

But linux is getting there too, as they start to listen to user
complaints and do something about it instead of as the first generation
linux programmers did, they told users who complained to get used to
it, learn to edit config files, etc..
Click to expand...

------------ REPLY SEPARATOR ------------

I think the GPL is the Achilles heel of Linux. While it's great to get
free software, there is little motivation for the software writers to
create a product that people like. If there was cash involved, they
would be much more likely to listen to their customers. Microsoft has
that figured out and maybe the Linuxians will someday.

I don't work for free and I don'e expect anyone else to either.

Mr Bill
 
M

Mark Warner

schrodinger's cat said:
Does Mepis use the Ubuntu repos to get additional packages, or the more
extensive Debian repos?
Click to expand...

MEPIS is built on the Ubuntu packages, and uses the Ubuntu repos. You
are, of course, free to add whatever you want to your sources.list.
 
S

schrodinger's cat

MEPIS is built on the Ubuntu packages, and uses the Ubuntu repos.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Mark. I knew MEPIS had switched to an Ubuntu base, so that's why
I asked.
You are, of course, free to add whatever you want to your sources.list.
Click to expand...

I assume with the usual Ubuntu proviso that you could break your system
by installing unauthorized packages? Thus the conundrum of whether to
upgrade progs like Firefox when 2.0 becomes available, since I doubt it
will appear in the Ubuntu repos until/unless someone backports it, or
until Edgy is released.
 
M

Mark Warner

schrodinger's cat said:
I assume with the usual Ubuntu proviso that you could break your system
by installing unauthorized packages? Thus the conundrum of whether to
upgrade progs like Firefox when 2.0 becomes available, since I doubt it
will appear in the Ubuntu repos until/unless someone backports it, or
until Edgy is released.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't assume that. I would suspect they would push FF2.0 out as an
upgrade as soon as possible. BICBW.
 
R

Roger Johansson

Bill said:
I think the GPL is the Achilles heel of Linux. While it's great to get
free software, there is little motivation for the software writers to
create a product that people like. If there was cash involved, they
would be much more likely to listen to their customers. Microsoft has
that figured out and maybe the Linuxians will someday.

I don't work for free and I don'e expect anyone else to either.
Click to expand...

That argument doesn't hold. If people create programs and operating
systems for free they will surely make those products better for free
too, as they discover weaknesses in user interface and the reactions
from the users.

First they worked on the technical stuff, to make it work, then comes
the time to work on the interface.
 
B

Ben Dover

Thanks.

One may wonder why they could not have supplied that information in
the same text box.

I have now spent two hours trying it out as a live-CD.
I logged in as root.
I set the keyboard to swedish.
An hour later I found out how to change all font sizes to something
readable.
Two hours later I had tried out surfing the web with it.

Most of the time I was searching for how to save my settings to my
hard disk, so I could use it as live-CD more times, without having to
go through all the settings again that made it usable for me.

But I couldn't find a way to save my settings.

Tried running as demo for a while trying still to find a way to save
my settings.

Finally I logged out and restarted the computer, hoping that mepis
would ask me if I wanted to save my settings to a hard disk file, as
knoppix does, but no luck, it just restarted the computer. I quickly
removed the CD so I got back into windows.

Summary of impressions:

I was more impressed by the earlier live-CD from mepis, it was
quicker, and it was the first live cd I hade ever seen work which
could use my internet connection.

This version, 6, probably had more programs and features but it was
not easy to find my way around it. It does not have an overall
structure which is sensible, I think.
I have never seen a linux with an overall design strategy.

Windows that open are small so you have to make them bigger to make
them useful.

I still have to recommend it, because mepis really works, but it still
has a lot of weaknesses. Even if you are young you probably need
reading glasses to be able to read the small fonts before you find the
setting that changes font sizes.

I think they should have gathered a bunch of normal people and tested
it on before releasing it.

Like people who do not automatically realize that the username and
password must both be root, etc.. People own normal size screens, mine
is a 19 inch and I would have needed a projector screen 3 by 4 meters
or something like that for so small fonts and details.

Theme designers who have a somewhat normal color sense would be needed
both in the linux and windows world.

Ergonomics is an unknown word, obviously.

It means the art of adjusting interfaces to human beings, whether it
is park benches, kitchen chairs, program interfaces, help files, color
themes, fonts, user interfaces of operating systems, etc..
Click to expand...

These are exactly the problems I've had with most distros, and why I'm
still using XP. If there was a distro that was designed more for the
average user who is used to the windows environment instead of linux
geeks, the OS would kill windows in a heartbeat. But apparently nobody in
the Linux world is after that market.

A shame, imo.
 
R

Roger Johansson

Ben said:
These are exactly the problems I've had with most distros, and why I'm
still using XP. If there was a distro that was designed more for the
average user who is used to the windows environment instead of linux
geeks, the OS would kill windows in a heartbeat.
Click to expand...

Try Knoppix. It is as easy to use as windows. As a live-cd.

But there's a catch, we don't know how deep the easyness goes.

It might get less easy when trying to do more complicated stuff.
Like changing the gear box or installing air conditioning, etc.. :)

Install it on a hard disk and test it more intensively.

If you have a spare hard disk and a few hours of time maybe you can
find out how deep the easyness goes and tell us about it.

Unfortunately I have more important things to take care of.
But I am interested in the result of such a test.
 
M

Mark Warner

Ben said:
These are exactly the problems I've had with most distros, and why I'm
still using XP. If there was a distro that was designed more for the
average user who is used to the windows environment instead of linux
geeks, the OS would kill windows in a heartbeat. But apparently
nobody in the Linux world is after that market.

A shame, imo.
Click to expand...

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
 
R

Ron May

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm
Click to expand...

(Sigh.) I know I'll probably regret this, but....

As a former Amiga user from years ago, I can relate to the almost
religious fervor of Linux aficionados "preaching" to the masses, but
I'm more in line with Ben. I've seen the article from the above link
before, and it really misses the point.

Viruses aren't much of a problem for Linux.... YET! To me,
statements like that are reminiscent of the assurances that the
Titanic was "unsinkable." The tone also seemed to strangely suggest
that ease of use is a BAD thing rather than something that should be a
goal. And ISTM that the major accomplishment of nearly all of the
various flavors of Linux is jut to get it booted and MAYBE being able
to get it to work with your hardware and peripherals and hopefully be
able to run a few simple apps after hours (or days) of configuration
and troubleshooting.

One of the reasons I follow ACF is that I want FUNCTION from any
computer I use. I want it to be a filing cabinet, a jukebox, a photo
and graphic processing lab, a news, research and information resource,
a DVD and movie maker and player, a game box, a greeting
card/poster/flyer maker, a planner/scheduler/diary/journal, and
whatever else I decide it should be able to do.

If I have a particular task in mind, odd are that (1) I already have
something installed that will do the job, or (2) I can find something
(usually free) that will come decently close to meeting my needs with
a simple Google search. You can't really say that about any Linux
distro, and THAT's the real point.

"Geek appeal" aside, there's not much else that suggests (to me) that
any of the various flavors of Linux are "superior" to WinXP in terms
of being capable of performing an endless variety of tasks that users
have come to expect from computers. It's not so much that "Linux
isn't Windows" as it is that Linux isn't anywhere near being as
FUNCTIONAL as Windows, and until there is a clear PRACTICAL benefit to
using it, it will continue to be a "fringe" OS mainly of interest to
hobbyists who enjoy "going under the hood" and tinkering with their
computers under a shade tree more than actually "driving" them down
the road (to borrow and extend the "car/motorbike" metaphor.)
 
B

Bill Turner

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

If people create programs and operating
systems for free they will surely make those products better for free
too, as they discover weaknesses in user interface and the reactions
from the users.

First they worked on the technical stuff, to make it work, then comes
the time to work on the interface.
Click to expand...

------------ REPLY SEPARATOR ------------

My experience says otherwise. Programmers who do it for free are doing
it for their own pleasure, not for mine. Nothing wrong with that at
all, just don't compare them to people who are actually programming
for me in order to get me to spend some of my money.

Before anyone gets their undies in a twist, I realize there is overlap
between the two groups. I have found some excellent freeware but
nearly always they are small projects, not major things like OS's.

Like it or not, Micro$oft dominated the software world because they
make products people like and are willing to pay for. Everybody knows
Linux is out there and they want M$ anyway.

Simple as that.

Mr Bill
 
B

Bill Turner

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

It's not so much that "Linux
isn't Windows" as it is that Linux isn't anywhere near being as
FUNCTIONAL as Windows, and until there is a clear PRACTICAL benefit to
using it, it will continue to be a "fringe" OS mainly of interest to
hobbyists
Click to expand...

------------ REPLY SEPARATOR ------------

Amen, bro.

As I've said before, Windows is for people who need to get things done
and Linux is for people whose hobby is computers. This is not a put
down for either; there is a place for both.

Mr Bill
 
M

Mark Carter

Mark said:
This is the real deal. Linux *IS* ready for prime time.
Click to expand...

I'm being completely off-topic here, but felt compelled to share my
discovery ...

I was Googling around the other day, and saw an advertisement for
OpenForEveryone:
http://openforeveryone.co.uk
a UK site that principally sells hardware, and uses Ubuntu. It even
sells compatible webcams.

All I can say is: about freakin' time. Someone has finally worked out
that selling systems which you can buy with confidence is a good idea.
D'uh. Actually, I don't know why Ubuntu aren't capitalising on it more.
What Mark Shuttleworth and his merry team should do is try to find a few
peripherals that are
compatible with Ubuntu. He should then display them on his website in
a prominent place, so that when people want to buy peripherals, they can
just buy something from the list.

I predict that this will quickly change the attitude of hardware
manufacturers, as they realise that the competition is getting free
advertising and a market niche.
 
B

Bill Turner

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

All I can say is: about freakin' time. Someone has finally worked out
that selling systems which you can buy with confidence is a good idea.
D'uh. Actually, I don't know why Ubuntu aren't capitalising on it more.
What Mark Shuttleworth and his merry team should do is try to find a few
peripherals that are
compatible with Ubuntu. He should then display them on his website in
a prominent place, so that when people want to buy peripherals, they can
just buy something from the list.
Click to expand...

------------ REPLY SEPARATOR ------------

I normally don't like "me too" postings, but me too on this one.

If there is a website where you can go and purchase hardware
guaranteed to work with Linux, it isn't getting much exposure.

If you know of one, expose it!

Mr Bill
 
M

mike

This is the real deal. Linux *IS* ready for prime time.
Click to expand...
It didn't work for me, Mark; it said it mounted the linux filesystem, which
took AGES, but, I'd been forewarned by other posts, but immediately after
that is failed (in red ink).

It didn't appear to have an install option - am I missing something?

I don't really want any more live CDs, but to find something I can leave on
my hard drive and try to get to know.

(and that will work with a USB modem!)

mike
 
M

Mark Warner

mike said:
It didn't work for me, Mark; it said it mounted the linux filesystem, which
took AGES, but, I'd been forewarned by other posts, but immediately after
that is failed (in red ink).
Click to expand...

What kind of hardware do you have (cpu speed, memory, etc.)? Also, how
old is the CD drive you're using.

From what I can gather, you need a reasonably fast processor (500MHz +)
and at least 256MB RAM. The CD drive needs to be of a fairly recent
vintage as well -- an old clunker just doesn't spin up fast enough.
It didn't appear to have an install option - am I missing something?
Click to expand...

If you can get the Live CD to boot to the desktop, the Install Mepis
icon is right there.
I don't really want any more live CDs, but to find something I can leave on
my hard drive and try to get to know.
Click to expand...

This would be a good one for that if you can ever get the job done.
(and that will work with a USB modem!)
Click to expand...

Can't say what your chances are with that. Running on a DHCP lan here.
 
M

mike

From what I can gather, you need a reasonably fast processor (500MHz
+)
and at least 256MB RAM. The CD drive needs to be of a fairly recent
vintage as well -- an old clunker just doesn't spin up fast enough.
Click to expand...

I haven't got enough RAM on the computer I tried; I may have to try it on
my main box, but that will be a real leap of faith ->
If you can get the Live CD to boot to the desktop, the Install Mepis
icon is right there.
Click to expand...
I'll try the live CD and if it boots I'll see if I can work up the courage
to install

mike <ulp>
 
B

Bad Dog

I haven't got enough RAM on the computer I tried; I may have to try it on
my main box, but that will be a real leap of faith ->
Click to expand...
I'll try the live CD and if it boots I'll see if I can work up the courage
to install
Click to expand...
mike <ulp>
Click to expand...

Here are some resources for you, the MEPIS community has some of the
friendliest people you will ever find and willing to help any way they
can. :)

MEPIS User Guide
http://www.mepis.org/node/6679

MEPIS Community Forum
http://www.mepis.org/forum

MEPISLovers
http://www.mepislovers.com/

MEPIS Wiki
http://www.mepislovers-wiki.org/

--
regards,
Bad Dog

INTEL P-IV/HT 3.0GHz - 2X256 DDR3200 - SimplyMEPIS 6.0
KDE 3.5.1 - Kernel 2.6.15-26-686-SMP - My iMAC runs Debian Sarge
 
W

Whirled Peas

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:



------------ REPLY SEPARATOR ------------

I normally don't like "me too" postings, but me too on this one.

If there is a website where you can go and purchase hardware
guaranteed to work with Linux, it isn't getting much exposure.

If you know of one, expose it!

Mr Bill
Click to expand...

This isn't *quite* what you want, but here are a few sites devoted to
linux supported hardware:

The Open Hardware Project: http://knowledge76.com/index.php/Main_Page

System 76's computers: http://www.system76.com/

Grooovix computers: http://groovix.com/

Linux hardware vendors: http://www.linux.org/vendor/system/index.html
 
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