Q: What is the highest DPI possible in a scanner?

K

Kennedy McEwen

Mike Fox said:
do you know the qualitative difference between
the Coolscan 5000 LS-5000 and the Coolscan 5000 ED?

There is no difference - it is the same model.
The model *name* is the Super Coolscan 5000 ED.
The model *number* is LS-5000ED.
I assume the LS
is an older model.

That is wrong.
On eBay, there's about $300 difference between
what they're going for.
So save yourself $300 and buy from a mug that thinks he has an inferior
model. ;-)
 
D

Don

To summerize your comments, it's extremely complicated, and 4000 ppi
starts causing it's own problems.

To keep things in perspective, the only way to actually see pepper
spots is to view the image at 300-400% magnification. If your end goal
is JPG or print they will be virtually invisible. Also, not all film
exhibits this problem when scanned.

Finally, Nikon's 4000 ppi and Minolta's 5400 ppi are the current
pro-sumer limit. So, unless you're willing to go to professional drum
scanners (the size of a fridge) and prices starting north of
$10,000-$20,000 that's the resolution we're stuck with.
A number of recommendations cite the Nikon Super Coolscan 5000. On
eBay, they appear to go for about $1000 and the bulk slide feeder for
$400. Unfortunately, that's beyond my acceptance level for something
I'll use once to scan 8000 slides and never use again. I wonder how
much I could recoup by selling it after I'm finished?

New models keep coming out so. Also it depends on how long it takes
you to finish. But I don't think the resell value will be that good
even though Nikons are in demand.
I read a review of the Coolscan and am bothered by that too. The
reviewer indicated that he liked it a lot (digital ICE), but that
there was a lot of hand processing with photo-editing software to get
acceptable images for file. I was hoping to load 40 slides and walk
away for however much time it took--come back and load another
40--etc. Is there a scanner on the market that handles automated
processing better?

Not really. The problem is you would be expecting the scanner to make
a subjective decision. Each image is different. A cast in one image
may be objectionable (blue skin tones at night), but a cast in another
image may be the goal (red sunset). So, if you're concerned about such
things you would have to do some editing.

Another point is that Nikons do have problems with Kodachromes. There
is a special Kodachrome setting, but you will need to do some touching
up.

BTW, since you don't intend to keep the scanner afterwards, maybe an
option is to have this done for you. There are many outlets which will
scan your film and burn CDs. However, the quality will vary so if do
decide to go that route you may want to test them out first with a
representative selection of your slides.
Thanks for interest in giving a lengthy comment.

My pleasure. I'm just giving back some of what I got out of this
newsgroup.

Don.
 
D

Don

The model *name* is the Super Coolscan 5000 ED.
The model *number* is LS-5000ED.

I never realized that distinction between *name* and *number* and
always wondered why Nikon had two "names" for their scanners.

It just adds unnecessary confusion especially in case of something
like LS-50 a.k.a. Coolscan V or LS-30 a.k.a. Coolscan III... Sprinkle
"ED" according to taste. ;o)


BTW, remember that "reverse comb histogram" thread? I finally found
some time to look into it again.

For starters, Nikon's charitably named "support" has once again proved
its massive incompetence (as expected) suggesting things like "it's
setting the white point" or scanning with interpolation set to 221.41%
as "proof" there are no comb histograms!? Riiight... And that's from
self-appointed "Level 3 support"! They're always good for a laugh...

Meanwhile in the real world I did some more analysis with a true
14-bit histogram and discovered some new "anomalies". Here's a
histogram of a linear gamma scan (first 256 bins, only):

http://members.aol.com/tempdon100164833/nikon/Gamma1Hist.ZIP

It's notable that the green channel is OK, but the other two seem to
have a very tiny amount of gamma applied to them but in the opposite
directions!? Weird...

Here's the full histogram data as a CSV file:

http://members.aol.com/tempdon100164833/nikon/Gamma1CSV.ZIP

Two questions:

1. Given a histogram (e.g. red and blue channels above) is it possible
to deduce the gamma applied? The idea is to apply the reverse and get
rid of "spikes" and "holes".

2. Could this possibly be caused by hardware? It seems very unlikely
as the artifacts have such a distinct gamma quality to them, but...

Thanks as always!

Don.
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

Don said:
BTW, remember that "reverse comb histogram" thread? I finally found
some time to look into it again.

For starters, Nikon's charitably named "support" has once again proved
its massive incompetence (as expected) suggesting things like "it's
setting the white point" or scanning with interpolation set to 221.41%
as "proof" there are no comb histograms!? Riiight... And that's from
self-appointed "Level 3 support"! They're always good for a laugh...
You obviously have poorer service from Nikon in the US than I get in the
EU - they have been most helpful, not always, but most of the time.
Meanwhile in the real world I did some more analysis with a true
14-bit histogram and discovered some new "anomalies". Here's a
histogram of a linear gamma scan (first 256 bins, only):

http://members.aol.com/tempdon100164833/nikon/Gamma1Hist.ZIP

It's notable that the green channel is OK, but the other two seem to
have a very tiny amount of gamma applied to them but in the opposite
directions!? Weird...

Here's the full histogram data as a CSV file:

http://members.aol.com/tempdon100164833/nikon/Gamma1CSV.ZIP

Two questions:

1. Given a histogram (e.g. red and blue channels above) is it possible
to deduce the gamma applied? The idea is to apply the reverse and get
rid of "spikes" and "holes".

2. Could this possibly be caused by hardware? It seems very unlikely
as the artifacts have such a distinct gamma quality to them, but...
Based on the first 256 bins, haven't enough time at the moment to
analyse the CSV, that doesn't look like a gamma correction to me - the
spikes and gaps are too evenly spaced. It looks like a straight linear
contrast change, which could well be the dominant change between
channels introduced as apart of the calibration. As the levels increase
I would expect individual cell response to "flatten out" this spikiness
due to minor variations between cells becoming as significant than the
gross variation between colours at a bit level.

It is a little disconcerting that you are seeing this on a 14-bit
analysis. One would have hoped that, despite Nikon advertising the
scanner as a 14-bit device, the calibration was implemented to an
accuracy of at least 16-bits.

I haven't looked at this in detail with Nikon, but when I get back from
Florida it will be on my list of things to do - if I get a round tuit!
 
D

Don

You obviously have poorer service from Nikon in the US than I get in the
EU - they have been most helpful, not always, but most of the time.

I thought Nikon "support" was basically worldwide i.e. centralized,
probably outsourced to India. I've had replies with bad grammar, and
I'm not talking pedantic stuff but obviously a non-native speaker.

But you may have an inside track at Nikon I don't... ;o)
Based on the first 256 bins, haven't enough time at the moment to
analyse the CSV, that doesn't look like a gamma correction to me - the
spikes and gaps are too evenly spaced.

That only appears so because it's just the first 256 bins. They do
spread out as I scroll over, then about "half" way through (around bin
5000) they "flip" i.e., spikes turn into valleys and vice versa, just
like "real gamma".

I ran some tests with small gamma changes (1.01) and the resulting
histograms (of the clean, green channel) are almost identical.
It is a little disconcerting that you are seeing this on a 14-bit
analysis.

Indeed! I wasn't too worried about the "reverse histogram" appearing
when scanning in 8 bit because I always expected 14-bit to be clean.
One would have hoped that, despite Nikon advertising the
scanner as a 14-bit device, the calibration was implemented to an
accuracy of at least 16-bits.

They do use 16 bits when applying things like curves etc. Even setting
the Kodachrome option is at 16-bit accuracy.

However, this was a "raw" scan and at 16-bit it was quite clear that
the data is 14-bit with only every 4th bin actually containing data.

So, apparently, even though TWAIN works in 16-bit the internal scanner
calibration seems to be at 14-bit.
I haven't looked at this in detail with Nikon, but when I get back from
Florida it will be on my list of things to do - if I get a round tuit!

Have fun in Florida!

I'll just wait here patiently... (fx: foot tapping) ;o)

Don.
 
H

HvdV

Kennedy McEwen wrote:
(snip)
The Nikon's have some advantages over alternatives because of the light
source that they use - each colour is captured on the same CCD line with
the image being illuminated in sequence by three coloured LEDs. This
gives exceptional colour purity and separation. Other scanners use
tricolour CCDs with white illumination, where each colour of the image
is captured with a different CCD line under a different colour filter.
The filters are less than perfect, bleeding into each other, requiring
some matrix manipulation to separate out, thus reducing the signal to
noise ratio. Of course the filters built into the film emulsion exhibit
the same type of spectral impurities, but at least the Nikon approach
doesn't make it any worse.
Interesting! So the Nikon has 'true' 4000dpi RGB pixels.
What about the Minolta 5400, does it have 5400 dpi true RGB pixels, or a CCD
line with 1800 groups of RGB cells, or sort of 1D Bayer sensor? 5400 *is*
dividable by 3 so...

-- Hans
 
A

Anoni Moose

HvdV said:
Interesting! So the Nikon has 'true' 4000dpi RGB pixels.
What about the Minolta 5400, does it have 5400 dpi true RGB pixels, or a CCD
line with 1800 groups of RGB cells, or sort of 1D Bayer sensor? 5400 *is*
dividable by 3 so...

No, it actually calculates out, the CCD is a three-by-XXXX sensor. Not
doing Bayer garbage.

"RGB 3-LINE CCD, 5300 pixels / line" (It's across the 35mm's "short"
direction!)

"To maximize the performance of its 3-line CCD sensor, the DiMAGE Scan
Elite 5400 features sophisticated new optics from Minolta. The lens
incorporated in the scanner has 8 elements in 4 groups."


Mike
 
A

Anoni Moose

Kennedy said:
The Nikon's have some advantages over alternatives because of the light
source that they use - each colour is captured on the same CCD line with
the image being illuminated in sequence by three coloured LEDs. This
gives exceptional colour purity and separation. Other scanners use

I've wondered about that. Seems it gives better separation, but it may
be at the cost of accuracy. Objects in the thing being scanned with
colors that fall between the color 'frequencies' of relatively sharp
LED color
spectrums doesn't register properly in the results. It would be the
same
as if it weren't there. Ideally each LED would have a
"square" color profile with one butting against the next, but it
doesn't.
There are big gaps inbetween. Seems like filters that overlap a bit
(like
film profiles do) would provide an overall increased accuracy of
result.

So, I'm not entirely sure that strong separation really is something
good in the final result. Does sound good otherwise.

At very least, it makes the CCD cheaper. Needs only one third as many
sensors on it, and gets rid of the filters. I think this is why
Minolta
went that way with their new model. They've done things that clearly
look
like signs of cost-reduction. To me, anyway.

Mike
 
K

Kennedy McEwen

I've wondered about that. Seems it gives better separation, but it may
be at the cost of accuracy.

No, your concern is based on a misconception - see below.
Objects in the thing being scanned with
colors that fall between the color 'frequencies' of relatively sharp
LED color
spectrums doesn't register properly in the results.

That would be the case if is was a general purpose flatbed scanner and
would result in extreme metamerism - different scan colours depending on
the exact spectrum of the object being scanned. Just as the colour of
some clothes are different under different lighting conditions.

However these are DEDICATED film scanners, and the film dye spectra
already overlap, so there is no possibility of an image being visible on
the film being "missed" by the narrow spectral bandwidth of the LED.
It would be the
same
as if it weren't there. Ideally each LED would have a
"square" color profile with one butting against the next, but it
doesn't.
There are big gaps inbetween. Seems like filters that overlap a bit
(like
film profiles do) would provide an overall increased accuracy of
result.
No - quite the contrary.

*If* the spectral response was flat across a wide band with all three
colours abutting each other then the actual response would be a 3-point
convolution of the response profile of the detector and the spectral
density of the dyes. In order to achieve pure colour separation these 3
outputs require deconvolution - and with only 3 data outputs required
this is relatively simple matrix manipulation. However it is the
deconvolution process which increases the noise.

Consider what would happen in a process with many colour scanning and
reproduction steps if the scanner had the response you suggest. The
film dye spreads some red into the green and blue and vice versa for the
other colours. This cross-coupling is then picked up by the broad
scanner response in each colour and then printed, perhaps onto another
film with 3 filtered lamps, each with their own broad response cross
coupling into each other, and responded to by the film layers each with
their colour responses spreading into each other. Then the second
generation film is developed and the colours spread out in the spectral
characteristics of the dye again. So the colour purity and saturation
of the image is grossly reduced in the second generation reproduction.

Then the second film is scanned and the process repeated, reducing
colour purity further (ie loss of saturation). You don't have to go
through many steps to convolve the response of each sensor in the final
scan across the entire visible band - resulting in a completely
monochrome image. If you have ever tried to photograph colour
photographs you are probably familiar with the fact that the second
generation copy never has the same saturation as the original - exactly
this effect.

The only ways to avoid this are:
1. Ensure that the response and spectra of the sensors, the film and the
dyes do not bleed into each other at all and that they all match in
wavelength exactly or
2. Deconvolve the colours at each scanning and printing step, with a
consequential increase of noise at each process step, ultimately
resulting in loss of image detail.

Measuring the response of each dye at a spot wavelength in the first
place eliminates this issue entirely. In a multistep process all you
need do then is use a matching set of LEDs to illuminate each generation
of film. The only loss of colour purity is then in the mismatch between
the film response and the dye reproduction, resulting in a colour
balance shift, but not a loss of saturation. In practical systems that
do exactly this, lasers are typically used these days to ensure that the
colours remain pure throughout each generation and there is minimum loss
of saturation.

The spectral response of your eye is quite broad with significant cross
coupling between the colours, since the eye evolved in a real world with
multiple spectral input, not a fixed dye spectra for only 3 layers of
emulsion. However, when you scan the film the last think you want to do
is introduce further mixing of the colours with the consequential loss
of purity and saturation. If you do, then you have to introduce some
deconvolution steps with consequential loss of SNR.
So, I'm not entirely sure that strong separation really is something
good in the final result. Does sound good otherwise.
It is the ideal solution - for the reason I mentioned previously, the
CCD outputs are a true representation of the image, without the need for
matrix deconvolution of the colours from each other.
At very least, it makes the CCD cheaper. Needs only one third as many
sensors on it, and gets rid of the filters.

The CCD is marginally cheaper, but the downside is that it makes the
illumination system more complex and hence expensive. I would hazard a
guess that overall it is a more expensive solution than tricolour
scanning of a white source.
I think this is why
Minolta
went that way with their new model.

They didn't. They use a white LED, not a single linear CCD with a
tricolour LED, which is what gives the benefit.

A white LED is usually 3 individual rgb LEDs, rather than a broad
spectrum white - hence the colour produced doesn't look natural. So the
new Minolta will get the same spectral purity as the Nikon, even though
they are using broad band colour filters on the tri-linear CCD.
They've done things that clearly
look
like signs of cost-reduction.

Yes, but changing to a single line CCD wasn't one of them. ;-)
 
A

Anoni Moose

Kennedy said:
No, your concern is based on a misconception - see below.


That would be the case if is was a general purpose flatbed scanner and
would result in extreme metamerism - different scan colours depending on
the exact spectrum of the object being scanned. Just as the colour of
some clothes are different under different lighting conditions.

However these are DEDICATED film scanners, and the film dye spectra
already overlap, so there is no possibility of an image being visible on
the film being "missed" by the narrow spectral bandwidth of the LED.

Thanks! Yup, it's a flat-forehead situation: what happens when I slap
myself
on the forehead and say "Of course! How obvious!". :)

That the film already did the 3-color 'rendition' is the obvious thing
I missed. My brain is now back in sync with reality (a bit more,
anyway).

Thanks!

Mike
 

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