B
Bill in Co.
(I'm not even sure that is necessarily true, either).
C
Colin Barnhorst
Save As will always create a complete new file in a new location.
As far as I know the operation is designed to be quick and be gone, whether
Save or Save As. I don't think the file manager messes around with the
existing file. There are too many variables and it would take too long. In
any case it does not insert data into an existing file. It either saves the
changes and updates the file structure data (Save) or it saves a new copy of
the file and marks the old for deletion if a new file name, path, or type is
not specified (Save As).
The Save command is not designed to analyse the file, find an insertion
point, open, insert, close, etc. It is a quick and dirty operation.
Open uses the links recorded by Save to stitch the file fragments back
together in the correct sequence when the file is again called into memory.
This sewing machine effect is most noticeable when the drive heads start
tracking all over the drive to get all the pieces.
As far as I know the operation is designed to be quick and be gone, whether
Save or Save As. I don't think the file manager messes around with the
existing file. There are too many variables and it would take too long. In
any case it does not insert data into an existing file. It either saves the
changes and updates the file structure data (Save) or it saves a new copy of
the file and marks the old for deletion if a new file name, path, or type is
not specified (Save As).
The Save command is not designed to analyse the file, find an insertion
point, open, insert, close, etc. It is a quick and dirty operation.
Open uses the links recorded by Save to stitch the file fragments back
together in the correct sequence when the file is again called into memory.
This sewing machine effect is most noticeable when the drive heads start
tracking all over the drive to get all the pieces.
C
Colin Barnhorst
The detailed descriptions are in the API calls (I think) which I have never
used. As I recall, things like PutFile something or other. I scanned some
TechNet stuff once, but not my cup of tea. It is all there but that is not
where I first learned about it. Bop over to TechNet and look for a likely
forum and ask.
used. As I recall, things like PutFile something or other. I scanned some
TechNet stuff once, but not my cup of tea. It is all there but that is not
where I first learned about it. Bop over to TechNet and look for a likely
forum and ask.
B
Bill in Co.
Colin said:
No offense, but I don't believe that is true. And so far, you haven't
shown any evidence that it is true. It really makes little sense, anyway,
when you think about it.
G
Gerry
Colin
You have ignored what I said and gone off on a tangent. Please respond
to the point I made.
~~~~
Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You have ignored what I said and gone off on a tangent. Please respond
to the point I made.
~~~~
Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
G
Gerry
Bill
If you do a Save As you end up with two files when you previously had
one. You may have two copies of the same file but they will have
different names and may be in different formats.
--
Hope this helps.
Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If you do a Save As you end up with two files when you previously had
one. You may have two copies of the same file but they will have
different names and may be in different formats.
--
Hope this helps.
Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
C
Colin Barnhorst
Well, you can save under the same name, path, type, etc, in which case the
old file is marked for deletion, but essentially yes, there are two files at
the time of the save as. I am primarily describing a technique for saving a
file in an unfragmented state. Of course, the computer books all emphacize
the usages of the command and not how the software accomplishes it, which is
what Bill is contesting. As you say, one well-known use of Save As is to
create a new file with a new format.
old file is marked for deletion, but essentially yes, there are two files at
the time of the save as. I am primarily describing a technique for saving a
file in an unfragmented state. Of course, the computer books all emphacize
the usages of the command and not how the software accomplishes it, which is
what Bill is contesting. As you say, one well-known use of Save As is to
create a new file with a new format.
C
Colin Barnhorst
I have been going back and forth with Bill's concern. What point in your
several replies do you mean?
several replies do you mean?
G
Gerry
Colin
What you say about Save As depends on how large the file is and whether
the next available free disk space is of sufficient size to accomodate
the file.
--
Hope this helps.
Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
What you say about Save As depends on how large the file is and whether
the next available free disk space is of sufficient size to accomodate
the file.
--
Hope this helps.
Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
G
Gerry
Colin
My comments were directed at Bill!
I doubt that many think about fragmentation when they do a save or save
as
--
Hope this helps.
Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
My comments were directed at Bill!
I doubt that many think about fragmentation when they do a save or save
as
--
Hope this helps.
Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
N
Nonny
I think this thread has gone far enough. I'm going to kill it here.
Do you think my default settings to delete the kill after 30 days of
the thread's disuse will be long enough, or do you think BinCo will
keep it going into the next millenium? <VBG>
C
Colin Barnhorst
I think that the complete file is saved in a new location. The overhead in
processing a save in place would be very high.
processing a save in place would be very high.
C
Colin Barnhorst
<choke></choke> 
Nonny said:
B
Bill in Co.
No, I'm talking about the case of using Save As to overwrite the file, just
as you would do with Save. IOW, with the same filename.
as you would do with Save. IOW, with the same filename.
B
Bill in Co.
Nonny said:
Oh hell, you must be one of those newagers, with the oh-so-typical limited
attention spans, these days! (Everything has to be in sound bites, or
they can't handle it).
B
Bill in Co.
No. Although obviously if the file being rewritten is larger now, it will
take additional locations (and if it's the same filename, it IS being
rewritten in the same place PLUS some)
take additional locations (and if it's the same filename, it IS being
rewritten in the same place PLUS some)
G
Gerry
Colin
That is not the same as what you originally said which was "Save As
saves a contiguous file in a new location. Save saves only the changes
in a new location."
You now omit the word "contiguous" and add "think".
--
Hope this helps.
Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That is not the same as what you originally said which was "Save As
saves a contiguous file in a new location. Save saves only the changes
in a new location."
You now omit the word "contiguous" and add "think".
--
Hope this helps.
Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
G
Gerry
Bill
Understood.
As an aside at one time (many years ago) you could save a Word file and
get one file size. If you used Save As with the same file the result was
a smaller file size. Save was obviously incremental and Save As was a
new file. This situation changed some time between 10 and 15 years ago.
I am not sure whether it was a Word or operating system update. We are
talking of the era Windows 3.1 and Office 4.3.
--
Regards.
Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Understood.
As an aside at one time (many years ago) you could save a Word file and
get one file size. If you used Save As with the same file the result was
a smaller file size. Save was obviously incremental and Save As was a
new file. This situation changed some time between 10 and 15 years ago.
I am not sure whether it was a Word or operating system update. We are
talking of the era Windows 3.1 and Office 4.3.
--
Regards.
Gerry
~~~~
FCA
Stourport, England
Enquire, plan and execute
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
C
Colin Barnhorst
I stand by contiguous.
Gerry said:
B
Bob
Hi:
I recently had MS defrag analyze my files. I moved all files that were
in 100 or more fragments to my USB flash drive. I then moved them back
and re-analyzed with the following results:
Run1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fragments File Size Most fragmented files
775 14 MB \Program Files\Alwil Software\Avast4\DATA\avast.int
699 136 MB \Stored\TI118053.ZIP
364 23 MB \Stored\QuickTimeInstaller.zip
357 22 MB \Stored\AdbeRdr812_en_US.zip
183 11 MB \Stored\qtlite-251.zip
174 4 MB \Program Files\Alwil Software\Avast4\DATA\Setup.log
159 702 KB \Utils\IC5\Reports\EXTRARPT.HTM
141 3 MB \Program Files\Alwil Software\Avast4\Setup\setup.log
136 17 MB \Program Files\Common Files\Acronis\ramdisk.dat
134 608 KB \Utils\IC5\Reports\EXTRARPT.CSV
94 6 MB \Stored\RlAlt175.zip
Run 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fragments File Size Most fragmented files
141 3 MB \Program Files\Alwil Software\Avast4\Setup\setup.log
80 5 MB \System Volume
52 3 MB \System Volume
51 19 MB \System Volume
50 9 MB \Program Files\CommonFiles\Fomatik\DiskManager.dll
48 3 MB \Program Files\Mozilla Firefox\plugins\NPSWF32.dll
46 5 MB \Program Files\Common Files\Java\Update\Base
46 11 MB \Program Files\CommonFiles\Acronis\wiper_ramdisk.dat
46 3 MB \Stored\CC207.ZIP
The moved files are now way down the list but not necessarily each in 1
fragment. Avast Antivirus was running which is probably why setup.log
is still in 141 fragments.
This relatively simple process should help with your large file.
HTH,
BoB
I recently had MS defrag analyze my files. I moved all files that were
in 100 or more fragments to my USB flash drive. I then moved them back
and re-analyzed with the following results:
Run1
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fragments File Size Most fragmented files
775 14 MB \Program Files\Alwil Software\Avast4\DATA\avast.int
699 136 MB \Stored\TI118053.ZIP
364 23 MB \Stored\QuickTimeInstaller.zip
357 22 MB \Stored\AdbeRdr812_en_US.zip
183 11 MB \Stored\qtlite-251.zip
174 4 MB \Program Files\Alwil Software\Avast4\DATA\Setup.log
159 702 KB \Utils\IC5\Reports\EXTRARPT.HTM
141 3 MB \Program Files\Alwil Software\Avast4\Setup\setup.log
136 17 MB \Program Files\Common Files\Acronis\ramdisk.dat
134 608 KB \Utils\IC5\Reports\EXTRARPT.CSV
94 6 MB \Stored\RlAlt175.zip
Run 2
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fragments File Size Most fragmented files
141 3 MB \Program Files\Alwil Software\Avast4\Setup\setup.log
80 5 MB \System Volume
52 3 MB \System Volume
51 19 MB \System Volume
50 9 MB \Program Files\CommonFiles\Fomatik\DiskManager.dll
48 3 MB \Program Files\Mozilla Firefox\plugins\NPSWF32.dll
46 5 MB \Program Files\Common Files\Java\Update\Base
46 11 MB \Program Files\CommonFiles\Acronis\wiper_ramdisk.dat
46 3 MB \Stored\CC207.ZIP
The moved files are now way down the list but not necessarily each in 1
fragment. Avast Antivirus was running which is probably why setup.log
is still in 141 fragments.
This relatively simple process should help with your large file.
HTH,
BoB