{PL] Small suggestions for Pricelessware.Org

[Susan Bugher]

Susan, I obviously disagree in part. I think it is appropriate to
correct errors or make minor improvements as we become aware of them
if the cost in effort does not exceed the benefit and there is general
agreement. This applies to incomplete or outdated descriptions just
as it does to poorly named categories.

Please look at the revision dates on the Program Index page.
*Descriptions* are a constant and ongoing battle.

http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/2004/PL2004ProgramIndex.php

re PL2004 revisions - I'm working on PL2005 plus a number of other
things - and I seem to have misplaced the phone booth that has my
Superwomen outfit in it. . .

I guess I have to prioritize instead. . .

In *two* *weeks* I will ask people to start posting program descriptions
in preparation for the start of PL2005 nominations.

I will be uploading a PL2005 Category Index page *soon*. There will be a
thread to discuss it. Please be prepared.

Susan

 

[BillR]

At one point or another, everyone who has maintained pricelessware
pages has chosen to make changes to the pages and then looked for
feedback from the group.

But usually in the context of discussion of those changes. I missed
the discussion. My post letting the cat (PL.org) out of the bag may
have contributed to some small extent to the lack of announced details
of changes.

Susan's frequent use of "proposed" pages is to be commended. That is
often the best way to present an idea.

While I'm in a thread that has become about the pages in general, I
guess I'll toss in ideas about direction. (I can't think too much
about the categories without getting a headache.)

Me, too.

IMO it would be good
if pricelessware.org focused tightly on the list itself while
pricelesswarehome.org continues to make itself a more general resource
for people interested in freeware. I was generally opposed to the
second approach at one time, but I've been shown the value of it;

Now if only a few more would agree. <grin>

We have had a schism. Let's accept that for now and move on,
emulating the openmindedness exhibited by »Q«, who was able to see the
other side and even change his opinion when warranted.

OTOH, now that there are two, it would be nice to have one that's only
about the PL.

An interesting thought. Of course we might have to have further
discussions on what the PL is.

BillR

 

[dszady]

I think the problem (and I don't know that it's much of a problem at
all) of programs perhaps not being where users may expect to find them
would be best solved by letting subcategories be tied to multiple
categories.

E.g., a user looking for a software firewall might reasonably click
'Internet' or 'Security' to try to drill down to the firewalls, and
ISTM it would be good if the firewall subcategory showed up with either
choice.

Excellent. Just what I was thinking.
Cross-referencing is a must.

One more step: a simple search engine, e.g. firewalls
results: Kerio, Sygate etc., with a direct link to the page subheader or to
the program itself. Not the percentage type search engine which IMO work
like crap. Hard results.
I don't know how hard it is to implement this so it may be alot of work for
the two Webmasters but I'm sure it could be solved.

For the person just browsing the site they will still have the subject
categories and a stroll down Freeware Lane to browse all the goodies we
take for granted.

There. A little more contructive than I have been.

 

[dszady]

<Snip rant>

[...]
corresponding rant snipped


Don't like what you read?
Don't read it and open another book.

 

[Garrett]

BillR wrote:

[SNIP]

BillR

P.S. Susan, I meant to include a similar last paragraph in my response
to you.

Bill, thanks for getting back on this. I am going to be changing
everything back to wence it came since the changes caused far too much
discord.

And it looks like some are willing to discuss some of the things I
brought up, so it looks like at least something will work out after
all. I know some of my suggestions and idea's are not going to be
accepted, but it can't hurt to at least bring them up.

I'm going to avoid playing a kid like I have in a few posts in this
thread, and I probably should not have even did that. But frustration
got the better of me. I apologzie to you and the other level headed
people who do really care about the list and this group. I did start
to get personal with those involved in some of these posts, so I'm just
as guilty as they are now because I did retaliate in kind. But enough
of that now. There are people here who are willing to talk seriously
and respectfully with each other, and I'd rather be productive with
them. I like the Do'ers, and want to avoid the Say'ers.

Well, there's another thread newer than this one where some of the
suggestion, and other suggestions from other people are starting to get
tossed around, so maybe we'll catch each other there.

Thanks alot Bill,
-Garrett

 

[Garrett]

But usually in the context of discussion of those changes. I missed
the discussion. My post letting the cat (PL.org) out of the bag may
have contributed to some small extent to the lack of announced details
of changes.

Susan's frequent use of "proposed" pages is to be commended. That is
often the best way to present an idea.


Me, too.


Now if only a few more would agree. <grin>

We have had a schism. Let's accept that for now and move on,
emulating the openmindedness exhibited by »Q«, who was able to see the
other side and even change his opinion when warranted.


An interesting thought. Of course we might have to have further
discussions on what the PL is.

BillR

I do kind of like this idea of how the sites should go. because
really, I'm a bit fond of just having the list by itself, and not
getting into too much other stuff. I would like to see the list itself
be the focus, and the extras. But, on the other hand, the extras do
come in quite handy. And I think maybe with this seperation that has
happened, that it may turn into something rather well, but it may take
some work in trying tie the two sites together without causing any
friction.

Personally, I'm going to try and remember to bring things up before
attempting to make any content changes to the list itself and other
things that are actually voted on by the group. Honestly, I was
unaware that the glossary was voted on, but Genna may have actually
mentioned that to me and I may have overlooked that.

Another issue has been brought up though that may or may not make
things worse. Some are suggesting that the PL sites not focus mainly
on Windows software. I don't like the idea of combining different
systems within one list. I'm not opposed to other systems being
included, but not within the same list. I feel it would be less
confusing if seperate list be maintained for other systems. Linux
alone if given it's own list will grow as big as the one for Windows,
and that probably would happen with it's very first pricelessware list
for linux.

-Garrett

 

[Garrett]

The wink was meant to indicate that I was joking. Sorry about that.

Damn, I'm sorry. I wasn't paying attention on that. I was just done
falling into another rant when I read this and was obviouisly not clear
headed... I'm really sorry about that. I'm glad you came back and
corrected me with that, as I am trying to end this thread since it's
not getting any of us anywhere now.

-Garrett

 

[Ben Cooper]

Personally, I'm going to try and remember to bring things up before
attempting to make any content changes to the list itself and other
things that are actually voted on by the group. Honestly, I was
unaware that the glossary was voted on, but Genna may have actually
mentioned that to me and I may have overlooked that.

See, that's what I've been trying to persuade you to do all along. I
understand this paragraph as an admission that you planned to run your
Pricelessware site by your propensity.

If you are being honest you should consider making the PW CD available
from your site again.

Another issue has been brought up though that may or may not make
things worse. Some are suggesting that the PL sites not focus mainly
on Windows software. I don't like the idea of combining different
systems within one list. I'm not opposed to other systems being
included, but not within the same list. I feel it would be less
confusing if seperate list be maintained for other systems. Linux
alone if given it's own list will grow as big as the one for Windows,
and that probably would happen with it's very first pricelessware list
for linux.

Intersting suggestion.
Pricelessware.org would be an *excellent* home for a Linux oriented
Pricelessware site.

 

[John Fitzsimons]

Uh...Hey, Garrett.

How many people
do you see disagreeing with what you've done to date (and who are they)?
What purpose is served by your arguing with them? Why are you trying to
justify your actions to them? Do you value their opinions over the
majority of the participants here? You seem to be letting the few bad
apples spoil the whole barrel IMHO.

Don't think I could have expressed that better myself. Probably
couldn't have expressed it as well as Jack has.

 

[Ben Cooper]

Please note: Since Ben continues to make this a personal issue with
me, I am now going to return the favor to him and treat him as treats
me and other members of this group.

If you're not in the mood to see Ben get a little roughed up in this
thread, then please disregard this post and move to the message.

Sorry for the interruption......

-Garrett

I'll cede this much to you, Garrett...
You're the first person to ever post a 20K message to the group just to
call me an idiot.

Unless I misunderstood the gist of your message.

 

[Mark Warner]

See, that's what I've been trying to persuade you to do all along. I
understand this paragraph as an admission that you planned to run your
Pricelessware site by your propensity.

Neener, neener, eh Ben?

If you are being honest you should consider making the PW CD available
from your site again.

The CD never was available from the site. It was first made available by
Susan, who compiled it and distributed the "seed" copies, and then was
made available by many others in a MLM-like fashion. Yourself and myself
included.

If Garrett were to put up a page on pricelessware.org describing the PW
CD and how it can be obtained, would you now offer to be one of the
volunteer burners he lists?

I didn't think so.

 

[Ben Cooper]

Neener, neener, eh Ben?


The CD never was available from the site. It was first made available
by Susan, who compiled it and distributed the "seed" copies, and then
was made available by many others in a MLM-like fashion. Yourself and
myself included.

Apparently, our recollections of how the CD was compiled differ.

If Garrett were to put up a page on pricelessware.org describing the
PW CD and how it can be obtained, would you now offer to be one of the
volunteer burners he lists?

I didn't think so.

Of course not.
I requested *several* times to be removed as a PW CD contact at the
pw.org site.

 

[Mark Warner]

Apparently, our recollections of how the CD was compiled differ.

Good avoidance of the point. You told Garrett he should make the PW CD
available from the site. It never was available *from the site*. You
couldn't even "order" it from the site. The one site I'm aware it is/was
available from is this one:

http://mirrors.unoc.net/pricelessware/

All the PW CD page does is describe the project and explain how a CD can
be obtained. It was never available there. Do you want pricelessware.org
to host the ISO? Do you want Garrett to take and fill orders? Pray tell,
what *exactly* should he do to make the PW CD available from the pw.org
site?

 

[dszady]

[...]
Damn, I'm sorry. I wasn't paying attention on that. I was just done
falling into another rant when I read this and was obviouisly not clear
headed... I'm really sorry about that. I'm glad you came back and
corrected me with that, as I am trying to end this thread since it's
not getting any of us anywhere now.

-Garrett

**** it. You are not worth it......

 

[Garrett]

See, that's what I've been trying to persuade you to do all along. I
understand this paragraph as an admission that you planned to run
your Pricelessware site by your propensity.

No, that was not my intent at all. I thought this was understood. I
was just trying to fix what I thought were obvious mistakes that may
have been overlooked. The fault still lays with me in not realizing
that such things needed to be brought to the group for evaluation
first. Not that I was trying to impose my will as many have tried to
make it seem.

I'm sorry, but I'm the kind of person who reacts to something that
needs to be taken care of immediately... Not always a good thing to do
of course, but the intent behind it is not a self-serving one.

If you are being honest you should consider making the PW CD
available from your site again.

No, because the CD was something that was also voted upon, and I am not
able to place the CD page back in place with it's original content. It
will not be the page that was voted upon by the members of the group.
Not trying to be an ass, but you yourself kind of help put the noose on
that one, and then Omar. Without those two names, the information on
the page is not what the members of this group consented too. So to
keep from having any issues, it's best to leave that page off at this
time. Not to say that it can't be brought back eventually, but at this
time, there are other things that need to be addressed first, that, and
due to the sensitivity of the issues that go with the CD page and this
specific site, it might draw more unwanted attention to what's already
been an over-eventful weekend around here.

Long story short, it's up to you and Omar if the cd page gets back in
action on pricelessware.org.

Hey, I even was in the process of making a menu program for the CD, but
when you and Omar decided to have your names pulled, I just wasn't in
the mood to put the effort in. It looked something like this, but not
exactly:

http://garrett.vdsworld.com/plwmain.jpg

If things ever get back to a norm (if there ever was or will be), then
I would probably get back on this project and present it to the group
for the 2005 CD.

Intersting suggestion.
Pricelessware.org would be an excellent home for a Linux oriented
Pricelessware site.

I don't have a problem with people wanting to make a seperate linux
list, but unfortunately, the suggestion was to include it with the
current list, mixed in with all the windows programs. And I have no
problem with adding linux, Mac, OSX, OS2 or anything else, but IMO I
feel these would all be better served on seperate pages and not
mingling within each other.

-Garrett

 

[Garrett]

available >> by Susan, who compiled it and distributed the "seed"
copies, and then >> was made available by many others in a MLM-like
fashion. Yourself and >> myself included.

Good avoidance of the point. You told Garrett he should make the PW CD
available from the site. It never was available *from the site*. You
couldn't even "order" it from the site. The one site I'm aware it
is/was available from is this one:

http://mirrors.unoc.net/pricelessware/

All the PW CD page does is describe the project and explain how a CD
can be obtained. It was never available there. Do you want
pricelessware.org to host the ISO? Do you want Garrett to take and
fill orders? Pray tell, what exactly should he do to make the PW CD
available from the pw.org site?

Look, this is kind of getting off the track again. It's obvious what
he's saying. I removed the cd page from this site because Ben and Omar
did not want to be associated with this site. I left out the page due
to the issues that had happened with these two. I assume the cd stuff
was voted on? I really don't know on that though. Doesn't really
matter though at this point in time. The page stays off this site
unless they decide to allow me to place it back in action. Now, I may
have been wrong for removing their names and even leaving the page off
at all. If the page was something voted on, then I had no power to
remove their names or the page itself.

We can go at it with this one on many angles, but it's not going to
change the outcome at this time. So I think we should just leave this
one be for now and get back to the other things that are being brought
up now and are actually being discussed.

Not trying to make anyone look bad over this or take anything away from
anyone, I just think this isn't the time for subject yet (I mean IMO
that is).

-Garrett

 

[Garrett]

I'll cede this much to you, Garrett...
You're the first person to ever post a 20K message to the group just
to call me an idiot.

Unless I misunderstood the gist of your message.

Uhmmmmm.... You know, I'm not sure now. Kind of lost track of some of
these posts since they were mostly side stepped posts. As you can see,
I react in kind to the posts presented to me. Cut me, do I not bleed?
Hit me, do I not feel pain? Simple things in life are oft overlooked,
such as treat others as you wish to be treated.

But this is off the subject, and most are actually getting to the point
now and discussing what was being brought up in the first place before
a few people side stepped it. So if anyone is still wishing to post in
the aftermath, they'll be a bit lonely by themselves now as most have
moved to the threads where the topics are now being discussed.

-Garrett

 

[=?iso-8859-1?Q?Omar=A9?=]

No, because the CD was something that was also voted upon, and I am not
able to place the CD page back in place with it's original content. It
will not be the page that was voted upon by the members of the group.
Not trying to be an ass, but you yourself kind of help put the noose on
that one, and then Omar. Without those two names, the information on
the page is not what the members of this group consented too. So to
keep from having any issues, it's best to leave that page off at this
time. Not to say that it can't be brought back eventually, but at this
time, there are other things that need to be addressed first, that, and
due to the sensitivity of the issues that go with the CD page and this
specific site, it might draw more unwanted attention to what's already
been an over-eventful weekend around here.

Long story short, it's up to you and Omar if the cd page gets back in
action on pricelessware.org.

Don't know why it is up to me but let me offer a suggestion:
You could put a link for any body that wishes to have the CD
on your page pointing to the "Pricelesswarehome.org"
Just a thought.

Hey, I even was in the process of making a menu program for the CD, but
when you and Omar decided to have your names pulled, I just wasn't in
the mood to put the effort in. It looked something like this, but not
exactly:

http://garrett.vdsworld.com/plwmain.jpg

More snipage

Omar

-Garrett

--
"When I am right, No one remembers
When I am wrong, No one forgets"

The Home of Pricelessware 2004
http://www.pricelesswarehome.org/

 

[=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=BBQ=AB?=]

So to keep from having any issues, it's best to leave that page
off at this time.

Perhaps you could mention on pricelessware.org the fact that the cd is
available, maybe linking to
<http://pricelesswarehome.org/2004/CD2004PL.htm>. If links between the
two pricelessware sites are for some reason undesirable, you could just
mention that requests for the CD may be posted here in a.c.f.

 

[jason]

There's a vast difference between Susan making a
practical choice about the organisation of the site in the absence of
requested input

Ah, I see you missed my point. Susan asked for input, and several of us
*did* respond. There was quite a lengthy debate over the categories and
subcategories, with omega and myself being two of the main contributors.
In the end, Susan adopted some of our suggestions and ignored the rest.
Again, this was her perogative. Not everything about the PL is a
democracy, nor should it be. There are certain areas where the webmaster
has discretion to make personal decisions. It goes with the job.